[Bigfish]

To date the poll is indicating nearly 85% of those that have responded use after market PCs.  My WAG prior to the poll would have been around 60%.

Thanks to all that responded!

Ken

[satfrat]

To date the poll is indicating nearly 85% of those that have responded use after market PCs.  My WAG prior to the poll would have been around 60%.

Thanks to all that responded!

Ken

Considering all the pre-press on the subject, I too expected a stronger showing from the non-aftermarket power cord folk. I'm willing to bet tho if this poll had been run say 10 years ago, it would have swung wildly to the other direction with all sorts of snake oil and other alien-likeness posts. Times they are a changin'.

Cheers,
Robin

[JerryM]

While I really, truly, enjoy reading the latest power cord debate, for this New Year's Eve at least, let's remember that it's all about the music.

Happy New Year, All,

Jerry

[jrtrent]

I suspect that some of the 'no' responses are from those with components that have captive cords.

That is what my "no" response is. What am I missing? 

I voted no, but not all of my equipment has captive cords.  I assumed that your "no" response included people with products that accept aftermarket cords, but who choose to stick with what came with their equipment originally.  Did I miss something?

[PaleRider]

 No alternative for me; I`m doing my own pc`s from shielded 12awg solid core. Nothing beats sc, npt even close

[Den]

Question for those who hate IEC's:    Why substitute another type of fancy connector instead of just soldering the wire of your choice directly to the PS inside the component?      I can think of only 2 reasons: to allow for convenient  changing of the cord to a different length of cord and to allow for trying different  flavors of cord + connector.   Is it possible that having no connection interface on the chassis(eliminating 2 connectors) would yield better results than using a fancy set from Neutrik, Oyaide, etc? 

[satfrat]

Question for those who hate IEC's:    Why substitute another type of fancy connector instead of just soldering the wire of your choice directly to the PS inside the component?      I can think of only 2 reasons: to allow for convenient  changing of the cord to a different length of cord and to allow for trying different  flavors of cord + connector.   Is it possible that having no connection interface on the chassis(eliminating 2 connectors) would yield better results than using a fancy set from Neutrik, Oyaide, etc? 

I've known people who have not only hardwired their power cords directly to their components but also hardwired the AC end directly to their Romex line so to forego all connections, AC outlet included. I'm jeolous of these folks myself. Sounds like the ultimate connection to me.

Cheers,
Robin

[Den]

Sure, that would be the logical conclusion, but I would have to acknowledge many reasons against hardwiring to the wall. . .might have to move(component or residence), might sell component. . .but a captive cord would not pose a problem in any of these situations.    It seems to me that the only advantage to having a connector on the component is that it makes upgrading / swapping the cord oh-so-easy.  I can see wanting to upgrade the captive zipcord that comes stock on some gear, but why add an IEC, Powercon, etc. connector as part of the mod?  In the small corner of the world that is this thread, we have 2 guys saying that IEC's are the devil.       What if the difference between a basic decent cord like Belden and the most fancy cord that you could ever discover by swapping is smaller than the difference between running  hardwired and running through a connector that allows you to easily swap cords?           

[satfrat]

Sure, that would be the logical conclusion, but I would have to acknowledge many reasons against hardwiring to the wall. . .might have to move(component or residence), might sell component. . .but a captive cord would not pose a problem in any of these situations.    It seems to me that the only advantage to having a connector on the component is that it makes upgrading / swapping the cord oh-so-easy.  I can see wanting to upgrade the captive zipcord that comes stock on some gear, but why add an IEC, Powercon, etc. connector as part of the mod?  In the small corner of the world that is this thread, we have 2 guys saying that IEC's are the devil.       What if the difference between a basic decent cord like Belden and the most fancy cord that you could ever discover by swapping is smaller than the difference between running  hardwired and running through a connector that allows you to easily swap cords?           

I totally agree with you and the only reason i can come up with at the moment would be my own, that my knowledge is limited, I don't soldier and it's really simple to install an iEC terminal that only requires a good crimp. For simplicty sake, an IEC panel terminal installation is the easiest way to take advantage of the benefits from using aftemarket power cords. Not many power cords I know of that have anything other than IEC terminations. It might not be the best termination choice but it is the simplest and the most readily available. As for hardwiring I can only envy those with the skill to do so.

Cheers,
Robin

[Den]

Pfft!  We don't need no stinkin' skill.  The incoming AC line has the largest/crudest connection inside any piece of gear I have opened up.  Probably the easiest thing you could pick to desolder / resolder in most boxes.  SMD's are what require skill. . and a magnifying glass.     Also, whatever you are crimping to your female IEC could just as well be crimped directly to the end of a power cord.  Some guys swear crimped connections are better than soldered.   

[millionmonkeys]

Just an FYI, there are other manufacturers here at AC that don't believe in aftermarket power cords and are just as vocal about it. Read some of the other manufacturer/owner Circles. So why's everyone ganging up on Mr VA?

One of the most lucid explanations I've read so far is an article called "Science and Subjectivism in Audio" at this website:
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm#5

It has been universally recognised for many years in experimental psychology, particularly in experiments about perception, that people tend to perceive what they want to perceive. This is often called the 'experimenter expectancy' effect; it is more subtle and insidious than it sounds, and the history of science is littered with the wrecked careers of those who failed to guard against it. Such self-deception has most often occurred in fields like biology, where although the raw data may be numerical, there is no real mathematical theory to check it gainst.

Another reason for the relatively effortless rise of subjectivism is the 'me-too' effect; many people are reluctant to admit that they cannot detect acoustic subtleties as nobody wants to be labelled as insensitive, outmoded, or just plain deaf. It is also virtually impossible to absolutely disprove any claims, as the claimant can always retreat a fraction and say that there was something special about the combination of hardware in use during the disputed tests, or complain that the phenomena are too delicate for brutal logic to be used on them. In any case, most competent engineers with a taste for rationality probably have better things to do than dispute every comtroversial report. Under these conditions, vague claims tend, by a kind of intellectual inflation, to gradually become regarded as facts. Manufacturers have some incentive to support the Subjectivist camp as they can claim that only they understand a particular non-measurable effect, but this is no guarantee that the dice may not fall badly in a subjective review.

---
I think now I'll be buying a few more coathangers....

[satfrat]

Just an FYI, there are other manufacturers here at AC that don't believe in aftermarket power cords and are just as vocal about it. Read some of the other manufacturer/owner Circles. So why's everyone ganging up on Mr VA?

One of the most lucid explanations I've read so far is an article called "Science and Subjectivism in Audio" at this website:
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm#5

It has been universally recognised for many years in experimental psychology, particularly in experiments about perception, that people tend to perceive what they want to perceive. This is often called the 'experimenter expectancy' effect; it is more subtle and insidious than it sounds, and the history of science is littered with the wrecked careers of those who failed to guard against it. Such self-deception has most often occurred in fields like biology, where although the raw data may be numerical, there is no real mathematical theory to check it gainst.

Another reason for the relatively effortless rise of subjectivism is the 'me-too' effect; many people are reluctant to admit that they cannot detect acoustic subtleties as nobody wants to be labelled as insensitive, outmoded, or just plain deaf. It is also virtually impossible to absolutely disprove any claims, as the claimant can always retreat a fraction and say that there was something special about the combination of hardware in use during the disputed tests, or complain that the phenomena are too delicate for brutal logic to be used on them. In any case, most competent engineers with a taste for rationality probably have better things to do than dispute every comtroversial report. Under these conditions, vague claims tend, by a kind of intellectual inflation, to gradually become regarded as facts. Manufacturers have some incentive to support the Subjectivist camp as they can claim that only they understand a particular non-measurable effect, but this is no guarantee that the dice may not fall badly in a subjective review.

---
I think now I'll be buying a few more coathangers....

That would make an awesome preamble for a Naysayer's Circle here at AudioCircle. You should maybe think about trying to start one up millionmonkeys and bring your coathangers. You could use them as a symbol of your beliefs. And I'm not really totally trying to be a smarta$$ here, I think you'd be surprised by how much traffic a Circle like that would create as there are many here that are vocally in agreement with you.

Cheers,
Robin

[Brown]

Just an FYI, there are other manufacturers here at AC that don't believe in aftermarket power cords and are just as vocal about it. Read some of the other manufacturer/owner Circles. So why's everyone ganging up on Mr VA?

One of the most lucid explanations I've read so far is an article called "Science and Subjectivism in Audio" at this website:
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm#5

It has been universally recognised for many years in experimental psychology, particularly in experiments about perception, that people tend to perceive what they want to perceive. This is often called the 'experimenter expectancy' effect; it is more subtle and insidious than it sounds, and the history of science is littered with the wrecked careers of those who failed to guard against it. Such self-deception has most often occurred in fields like biology, where although the raw data may be numerical, there is no real mathematical theory to check it gainst.

Another reason for the relatively effortless rise of subjectivism is the 'me-too' effect; many people are reluctant to admit that they cannot detect acoustic subtleties as nobody wants to be labelled as insensitive, outmoded, or just plain deaf. It is also virtually impossible to absolutely disprove any claims, as the claimant can always retreat a fraction and say that there was something special about the combination of hardware in use during the disputed tests, or complain that the phenomena are too delicate for brutal logic to be used on them. In any case, most competent engineers with a taste for rationality probably have better things to do than dispute every comtroversial report. Under these conditions, vague claims tend, by a kind of intellectual inflation, to gradually become regarded as facts. Manufacturers have some incentive to support the Subjectivist camp as they can claim that only they understand a particular non-measurable effect, but this is no guarantee that the dice may not fall badly in a subjective review.

---
I think now I'll be buying a few more coathangers....

That would make an awesome preamble for a Naysayer's Circle here at AudioCircle. You should maybe think about trying to start one up millionmonkeys and bring your coathangers. You could use them as a symbol of your beliefs. And I'm not really totally trying to be a smarta$$ here, I think you'd be surprised by how much traffic a Circle like that would create as there are many here that are vocally in agreement with you.

Cheers,
Robin

Very good idea Robin. "Tastes great" vs "Less Filling. Brilliant. Go for it Robin. We could start the topic with Synergestic research's new room treatments, cables, powercords, break in, SS vs tubes. The thread could be governed easily and might stop the nonsense that ruins other threads. Brilliant!

[PhilNYC]

Just an FYI, there are other manufacturers here at AC that don't believe in aftermarket power cords and are just as vocal about it. Read some of the other manufacturer/owner Circles. So why's everyone ganging up on Mr VA?

One of the most lucid explanations I've read so far is an article called "Science and Subjectivism in Audio" at this website:
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm#5

It has been universally recognised for many years in experimental psychology, particularly in experiments about perception, that people tend to perceive what they want to perceive. This is often called the 'experimenter expectancy' effect; it is more subtle and insidious than it sounds, and the history of science is littered with the wrecked careers of those who failed to guard against it. Such self-deception has most often occurred in fields like biology, where although the raw data may be numerical, there is no real mathematical theory to check it gainst.

Another reason for the relatively effortless rise of subjectivism is the 'me-too' effect; many people are reluctant to admit that they cannot detect acoustic subtleties as nobody wants to be labelled as insensitive, outmoded, or just plain deaf. It is also virtually impossible to absolutely disprove any claims, as the claimant can always retreat a fraction and say that there was something special about the combination of hardware in use during the disputed tests, or complain that the phenomena are too delicate for brutal logic to be used on them. In any case, most competent engineers with a taste for rationality probably have better things to do than dispute every comtroversial report. Under these conditions, vague claims tend, by a kind of intellectual inflation, to gradually become regarded as facts. Manufacturers have some incentive to support the Subjectivist camp as they can claim that only they understand a particular non-measurable effect, but this is no guarantee that the dice may not fall badly in a subjective review.

---
I think now I'll be buying a few more coathangers....

Wouldn't this apply also to people who believe there is no difference in cables?  That "experimenter expectancy" for those who expect no differences to be heard would therefore perceive no differences?

[Don_S]

Wouldn't this apply also to people who believe there is no difference in cables?  That "experimenter expectancy" for those who expect no differences to be heard would therefore perceive no differences?
[/quote]

Phil, That is brilliant.  I love it.   

"Experimenter expectancy"  also does not account for all the times I have been disappointed by a particular piece of audio equipment or wire product.  Despite attempts to audition a new piece free from preconceptions, buzz around a particular piece and my own attempts to system match usually give me good expectations for whatever I am auditioning.  Many times I am disappointed and left  wondering what all the fuss was about.  As Tom Petty would say "Looks like I've been fooled again".

That said, I do hear differences in wire products.  Funny thing is they frequently don't match my "experimenter expectancy". 

[TONEPUB]

So how do you dismiss the people at Audioquest, Shunyata, Furutech,
etc. That have "capable engineers" designing this stuff in the first place?

Are those engineers all invalid?

[Ethan Winer]

That would make an awesome preamble for a Naysayer's Circle here at AudioCircle ... I think you'd be surprised by how much traffic a Circle like that would create as there are many here that are vocally in agreement with you.

I'm in!

--Ethan

[mcrespo71]

I'm all Naim and up until a few months ago, when they threw their hat into the expensive PC business, I just used the PC's they provided.  I moved from having a bunch of aftermarket PC's in a VTL/Conrad Johnson based system to using the PC's Naim provided with their electronics.  I tried my more expensive cords on the Naim system and it sounded worse, so I was happy to sell them.  However, they sounded better to my ears when I used them in the VTL/Conrad Johnson system, so I definitely have heard differences with aftermarket PC's.  I'd rather they didn't work, to be honest, and am happy that I didn't have to invest anything in cabling with Naim (aside from their speaker cable).  Assuming I continue to stay with Naim equipment, I will not buy their expensive PC, but would rather spend my money on better power supplies.  It certainly makes things easier, I barely have enough time to listen to my system as it is and don't have the patience to start fooling with audio accessories again.

[Emil]

Re: Naim

As a Naim-o-file myself, I found it funny that Naim and Naimites would always poo-poo ( that is a word, right?) powercords till Naim came out with the Tibia and Powerline . Either Naim is finally acknowledging that cords make a difference, responding to Naimites that do hear a positive difference with cords or is just looking for a piece of the powercord pie.

[bwaslo]

So how do you dismiss the people at Audioquest, Shunyata, Furutech,
etc. That have "capable engineers" designing this stuff in the first place?

Are those engineers all invalid?

Out of curiosity, do those folks have those capable (or at least degreed) engineers designing this stuff in the first place?  If so, have their engineers published any industry technical articles on the engineering concepts involved, something that other engineers might peruse with a straight face?  Do these companies in fact make their own cable, for that matter (drawing out the wires, etc, from molten copper/silver/whatever, themselves rather than re-jacketing or hand braiding stuff made by the probably-relatively-few companies that make wire from scratch)?  Or are maybe the costs of getting Belden (or whoever) to set up and make a run of custom cable (per some drawings with specified metalurgy, dielectrics, etc) why some of these cables cost so incredibly much?   I guess that might make sense, at least, it wouldn't be cheap.

I've heard conflicting reports about this, and have no first hand info on it, so I can't say either way.  It does seem very doubtful that so many little cables companies are melting copper in their facilities and can afford the machinery and environmental permits needed to do that. 

I'm an RF engineer who works with cables that really do have some pretty tight technical requirements (and which I can vouch for really being relevant, like VSWR, delay, defined loss, phase stability when bent, etc) which can be important in some (usually ultra high frequency) applications, and what the manufacturers of those cable types do and talk about couldn't be further from the copy I see in audio cable ads. That kind of thing can make people suspicious.  Or maybe the engineers at Belden, Alpha, UTI, Carol, etc aren't yet up to the capable engineer they have at Audioquest, etc.?  If so, maybe NASA is buying from the wrong places.