From the Isabellina to the Isabella

wilsynet · « **on:** 24 Dec 2008, 01:39 am »

Quote from: dspringham on 24 Dec 2008, 12:29 am

Congrats on the upgrade to the Isabella! I didn't expect that you would be moving up the food chain quite so quickly.

Regarding your Sig 30.2, did you have it converted to the power amp version or are you still using it with the Isabella as an integrated?

Also, with the Druids are you operating the Isabella in the full gain mode or at 0 db (no gain)?

I didn't think I'd be upgrading so quickly either. But some extra cash, a propensity for being impatient, and Vinnie's generous upgrade offer was enough to finally motivate me.

Just so you know, here's how the pricing breaks down if you're an Isabellina *and* a Signature 30.2 owner:

1. Signature 30.2 owner means 10% off the price of an Isabella. Isabella + DAC = $5500, minus 10% or $550 means total price = 5500 - 550 = 4950.

2. Isabellina is $2500. Full value for trade-in of $2500. So 4950 - 2500 = $2450 for the upgrade to Isabella + DAC. Add shipping for a reasonable $35.

I looked at the Dodd, the Lamm LL2, the Wyetech Pearl and Jade, the Shindo Aurieges-L, and the Modwright 36.5, all reputedly very good line stages. In terms of how much I'd spend to get one of the preamps just listed, both used and new, and knowing how happy I've been with RWA in the past it made a lot of sense to go with the $2450 upgrade.

On Vinnie's recommendation, the 30.2 integrated was converted to the power amp version. I would have preferred to keep the 30.2 with a volume pot, but Vinnie hasn't steered me wrong yet. Besides, I don't have a second system, so rather than get the Isabella back, then later on send in the 30.2, I figured I'd just send in everything at once and be done with it.

Paired with the Zu Druids, I'm operating the Isabella at 0db gain. For quiet listening, the volume control is at 9 o'clock. 11 o'clock is groovy, and at 12 o'clock is loud. 2 o'clock is pretty uncomfortable, but not yet deafening.

When I have it switched to 12db gain, then it's already quite, quite loud at 9 o'clock.

So far (in my system and in my room) compared to the Isabellina by itself, the Isabella adds a good amount of body and fleshiness, and a smaller amount of additional texture and dimensionality. Where in some recordings you might accuse the Isabellina of being a bit lean and dry, the Isabella is liquid and warm by comparison. If I have said previously that the Isabellina DAC was organic and effortless, I'll say now that the Isabella is even more organic and effortless. The Isabella also has a black as midnight background, a certain tonal character and density, and a relaxed presentation which I'm starting to associate as the RWA house sound.

For background information, my previous active line stage was the Modwright SWL 9.0SE. My two favourite tubes were the Sylvania and Tungsol 5687s. The Sylvanias were euphonic, textured, and warm while the Tungsols were highly resolved, transparent and energetic. Different tubes and different personalities depending on my mood.

With some tracks the Isabella with stock tubes is perfect. On other tracks, the Isabella with the stock JJs seems to be a bit on the too laid back side of things, which is really to say that sometimes I have a preference for more sparkle in the highs. No doubt a pair of the Siemens CCA tubes are soon to be in my future.

dspringham · « **Reply #1 on:** 24 Dec 2008, 03:22 am »

Thanks for the information Wilson.

Dave

low.pfile · « **Reply #2 on:** 24 Dec 2008, 04:28 am »

I too am wanting to go the Isabella route to pair with my 30.2 amp. But funds don't allow it. waiting for some economic shoring up before audio expeditures. Would love to audition the isabella w/ DAC in northern california. A great sound is the ultimate goal but consolidating the current MWI preamp and DAC + IC would be the icing.

I didn't doubt for a minute that wilsynet would get here.

So Wilsynet, when is the Modwright 9.0 pre vs the Isabella review going to be published? hint, hint.

cheers, ed

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #3 on:** 24 Dec 2008, 04:37 am »

Hi Wilsynet,

Great post - and thank you! I am really glad to hear that you are enjoying your Isabella!

Quote

ust so you know, here's how the pricing breaks down if you're an Isabellina *and* a Signature 30.2 owner:

1. Signature 30.2 owner means 10% off the price of an Isabella. Isabella + DAC = $5500, minus 10% or $550 means total price = 5500 - 550 = 4950.

2. Isabellina is $2500. Full value for trade-in of $2500. So 4950 - 2500 = $2450 for the upgrade to Isabella + DAC. Add shipping for a reasonable $35.

This is all correct and we like to offer our customers with such an upgrade path - I am thankful that you are posting feedback about how the Isabella with built-in Isabellina dac compares to the stand-alone Isabellina dac that you formerly owned. Not only did you upgrade the sound, but now you also have more features (3 analog inputs, two analog outputs, easy access for tube rolling, hi/low gain, etc.).

Quote

ith some tracks the Isabella with stock tubes is perfect. On other tracks, the Isabella with the stock JJs seems to be a bit on the too laid back side of things, which is really to say that sometimes I have a preference for more sparkle in the highs. No doubt a pair of the Siemens CCA tubes are soon to be in my future.

Tube rolling is a lot of fun, and is made fairly easy with the Isabella's sliding glass window on the top cover. I do recommend that you put on approx. 200+ hours of burn-in on your Isabella before critically evaluating how it sounds with the stock tubes. The sound really opens up more with burning in the stock JJ tubes (and the rest of the unit). It might be the case that you still will prefer a good pair of NOS tubes and it is fun to try 'em

Thanks again,

Vinnie

wilsynet · « **Reply #4 on:** 27 Dec 2008, 08:44 am »

So I'm at about 100 hours now, and indeed the sound has really opened up. Exceptional body and tone are there as they have from the beginning. However, as I've put more hours on, the Isabella has become more dynamic and less laid back. Treble has become refined and delicate. Mid-range is liquid and holographic and the sound stage wider and instruments more three dimensional. And all the while it preserves its effortless and relaxed presentation -- you can listen all day to this thing and never tire of it.

I think I've exhausted my quota of audiophile superlatives for the day. It's certainly getting better and better and I'm quite happy about that.

Vinnie, I'm sure you don't need me to say it, but let me congratulate you on a superior execution of a valve line stage.

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #5 on:** 31 Dec 2008, 03:05 pm »

Quote from: wilsynet on 27 Dec 2008, 08:44 am

It's certainly getting better and better and I'm quite happy about that.

Vinnie, I'm sure you don't need me to say it, but let me congratulate you on a superior execution of a valve line stage.

Hi wilsynet,

Thank you - I appreciate your feedback and am very happy to know you are enjoying your Isabella/Isabellina combo!

Happy New Year, Happy Listening!

Vinnie

jrebman · « **Reply #6 on:** 1 Jan 2009, 11:04 pm »

Wilson,

Congratulations on upgrading the Isabellina. I too have been contemplating this as well as a few other options, but am now settled on going ahead with the upgrade to the full-blown Isabella.

The Isabellina has been fantastic, but as I'm back to using tube amplification, I am really feeling that a good preamp will take everything up several notches.

Saving the pennies, and one amp left to sell before I can ship the Isabellina back to Vinnie, but he'll be at CES for the next little while anyway.

Thanks for sharing your observations -- again, sounds like the real deal.

-- Jim

dspringham · « **Reply #7 on:** 2 Jan 2009, 03:01 am »

Jim,

I recall reading in one of your old threads (the one where you had put up your RWA 30.2 for sale) where you had mentioned the possibility of pairing the 30.2 with the Bent Tap Autoformer TVC.

Did you ever try this combo and if so what were your impressions?

I've tried my Tap-X (fed by Wavelength Cosecant) into the RWA 30.2 integrated and felt that it was detrimental to the overall sound. The Wavelength directly to 30.2 sounds to my ears more transparent, nuanced with sharper detail. The TVC seems to "round off the corners" a little. I'm also wondering if the Bent TVC would sound better into a 30.2 power amp version with it's higher input Z (the Cosecant has a Zout of 500 ohms I think). I really prefer the volume control action (1 db steps with readout) on the Bent.

I'm quite pleased with the sound I'm presently getting with the Wavelength/30.2 Integrated combo into Harbeth Super HL5's, however Wilson has me thinking about what an Isabella w/DAC would do for my system.

Dave

jrebman · « **Reply #8 on:** 2 Jan 2009, 05:51 pm »

Dave,

Yes, tried the Tap X into not only the 30.2, but also into my Carina, which has a 100k input impedance and the results were about the same as with the 30.2 -- an overall thinner sound. Not as much texture and harmonic information. Other than that, the Tap X was as transparent as can be, but I think all that wire in the autoformers just didn't work in my setup with my speakers. On paper, the OIsabellina with it's low output impedance and decent output voltage looked like an Ideal candidate for the Tap X, especially since my interconnects were fairly short, but like you, the Isabellina directly into the 30.2 and Carina just had more "meat on the bones". Still not enough for me, so that's why the move to an active gain stage, which is now official, and will be happening when Vinnie gets back from CES.

Shameless plug: if you or anybody else is considering the Isabella/30.2 (or even Isabellina/30.2) combination, see my ad in the accessories listings for a 12" pair of KCI Silkworm ICs. I'll be getting a longer set to replace these, but there's no place in my system now where a 12" interconnect will work.

One last note. From my previous experience with the Signature 70s, using a Minimax preamp between my CDP and amps was far better than running the CDP directly into the amps and using their volume controls. YMMV, but I'm back to being a big fan of active preamplification.

-- Jim

Alwayswantmore · « **Reply #9 on:** 2 Jan 2009, 07:31 pm »

Quote from: jrebman on 2 Jan 2009, 05:51 pm

One last note. From my previous experience with the Signature 70s, using a Minimax preamp between my CDP and amps was far better than running the CDP directly into the amps and using their volume controls. YMMV, but I'm back to being a big fan of active preamplification.

For years I ran 2ch amps (Ayre, FirstWatt for a short period), then the Sig 30/30.2 straight from a Wadia CDP. Wadia actively touts removal of a linestage where possible. And their CDPs are designed to fill the role (appropriate output voltage, output impedance, etc.).

I now have the Isabella with nos Amperex tubes and Macbook as source. Compared to the Wadia, the Isabella / DAC sounds warmer and more lifelike. Count me as definitely spoiled!

wilsynet · « **Reply #10 on:** 2 Jan 2009, 07:49 pm »

Hey Jim,

Which amp do you think you'll be pairing with the Isabella? I saw that you had the 30.2 for sale, but then you withdrew it after receiving the Isabellina.

You'll definitely get more meat on the bones with the Isabella. In the first 100 hours though, it may seem too laid back and you may wonder what you've given up for an active line stage.

After 100, and into 150, it'll really start to open up. I put the CDP on repeat, switched the Isabella to AC and DAC input on coax, turned the amp and subwoofer off, dialed the volume to near max and put gain on the 12db position. I let it run every minute I wasn't actually listening to music. The 200 hours of recommended break-in passed a lot quicker. =)

I've been very satisfied with the Isabella, but as I was saying before, I do occasionally want a bit more high frequency sparkle. I'll probably give tube rolling a try with a pair of NOS tubes. I keeping hearing stellar things about Vintage Tube Services but I've never used them -- I'll probably given them a ring in a couple of weeks. Different ICs may be in my future too, but I'll do some tube rolling first. When I had the Modwright SWL 9.0SE there was a dramatic difference in character between the Sylvania, the Tungsol and the stock 5687 tubes. I expect the same will apply to the Isabella.

Wilson

wilsynet · « **Reply #11 on:** 2 Jan 2009, 07:58 pm »

Quote from: Alwayswantmore on 2 Jan 2009, 07:31 pm

I now have the Isabella with nos Amperex tubes and Macbook as source. Compared to the Wadia, the Isabella / DAC sounds warmer and more lifelike. Count me as definitely spoiled!

You don't want to say that in a thread about Benchmark DACs. The mob is going to say how that's impossible because the Benchmark is jitter immune and Stereophile measured the Benchmark and found it was perfect. So you can't get better than Benchmark! And if you like something else better it's because either there's something wrong with your ears or something wrong with your system.

Personal holiday venting. =)

jrebman · « **Reply #12 on:** 2 Jan 2009, 08:45 pm »

Wilson,

I'll be using the Isabella with the Vaughn Audio Carina amp that I have as I've sold off all of my amps but two (actually 3, but the third is about to be on the block soon) Basically, it's what I had to do in order to be able to afford the upgrade to the Isabella, and this upgrade will completely wipe out my audio money for a real long time. Which in a way is a good thing because there won't be any more to tempt me to try different gear. I want off the merry-go-round. It was a really big decision to do this and I know I won't be let down.

Andy is great, just beware that he can take a while. Probably because he takes extreme care to do things right. Jim McShane and Brent Jesse are also both stand-up guys and are also quite fussy about the tubes they sell.

If you can find a pair of the Russian 6h23n-EB or EV NOS military tubes, give them a try, they may surprise you.

Also, looking over the tube rolling thread, I'm not clear on whether people that have bought the Amperex 7308s have the plain jane 7308, or the SQ or PQ versions, but suspect that at the prices they're talking about, most likely the plain 7308. The PQs are another several notches up from there, but figure $250 - $300 a pair.

When I send my Isabellina in I'm going to be sending another type of tube along with it for Vinnie to test, and if he gives the ok, then I'm sure either he or I will be mentioning it here. You might also find that some Amperex Bugle Boys are the charmer -- they often have been for me. I probably have more types of 6dj8s than any one person should have

.

-- Jim

dspringham · « **Reply #13 on:** 2 Jan 2009, 11:06 pm »

Wilson,

Regarding the additional "high frequency sparkle" that you seem to be craving with the Isabella, did you have more of this with your previous setup (Isabellina directly into Sig 30.2)?

Just wondering if the tube stage of the Isabella has slightly "dampened" or otherwise "rounded off" the high frequency content as opposed to Isabellina direct to 30.2 integrated.

Could there be an imminent tradeoff with the Isabella adding air/holography and tone density while the all solid state Isabellina>30.2 presented slightly less dense tonality but with quicker transient response and more apparent microdynamic information.

Just wondering,

Dave

wilsynet · « **Reply #14 on:** 3 Jan 2009, 12:42 am »

Hey Dave,

I wish I could do A/B comparisons, but I can only afford one amplifier at a time and only one DAC at a time right now. =) Also, just to be honest and frank here, I haven't quite hit the 200 hour mark. I was at 170 hours when I went off to visit the folks and I haven't gotten back home yet from the holidays.

When I listen critically, I do not notice any absence of high frequency detail. In fact, there is more treble finesse in the Isabella than there is in the Isabellina. With the Isabella, I also hear more microdynamic detail with the mid-range and upper base range too. My ears aren't golden, but I believe transient response is equally as good. The Isabella + 30.2 is just as articulate and quick as the Isabellina + 30.2 passive integrated.

In the tube rolling thread, someone describes the stock JJs as earthy. I think that's right. But I'm not always looking for earthy, sometimes I'm looking for a presentation that emphasizes transparency, inner detail and high frequency extension, and I'm willing to give up a little body and tonal density. Reputedly that's what the Siemens do, maintaining the character of the preamp but giving a different tilt to the presentation.

For the record, I'm using the RWA ICs. Srajan mentioned in his most recent review that using the RWA interconnects was a bit too laid back for him. I certainly didn't find that to be the case between the Isabellina + 30.2 integrated. But with the Isabella having a more (I'll borrow this term again) earthy presentation, and with my particular preferences, perhaps an IC that conveys more treble energy would do the trick (don't think there's a placebo effect going on here either as my post about the slightly laid-back quality of the combination preceeded the latest article from Srajan). I've been much less concerned about the laid-back quality since the 100 hour mark as it's really opened up, but there is still a certain something, something I think in the high frequency extension department that the Isabella can do better.

Some nagging doubt that there's perhaps a tweak to be had here, but not to be characterized as dissatisfaction. The Isabella is really excellent. So perhaps some different tubes, perhaps some different cables. That's what different cables and tubes are for, right?

Well, I've been rambling for a bit. Probably a good time to end this post.

Wilson

Fork · « **Reply #15 on:** 3 Jan 2009, 08:40 am »

I think the JJ tubes are a definite issue with your setup. I started with a pair of Cain Super Abby speakers and Audio Magic silver cables. Using 7308 tubes gave a slightly more transparent presentation and the JJs added a bit more body and sounded marginally better. Certain kinds of music, like Jazz sounded very good, I was having problems with shouty / piercing treble.

Recently I switched to Druids. On initial hookup I was using the JJ and the piercing treble went away, but a layer of mud was added. Adjusting the bass with the height makes a difference, but overall I would say the JJs were not the right combination in this setup. The 7308s opened up the treble considerably. I'm not 100% satisfied with the sound yet, so I probably will also try different cabling; giving the Ibis cables a shot and may eventually find a replacement for my Varial interconnect.

Alwayswantmore · « **Reply #16 on:** 3 Jan 2009, 04:29 pm »

Quote from: Fork on 3 Jan 2009, 08:40 am

I think the JJ tubes are a definite issue with your setup. I started with a pair of Cain Super Abby speakers and Audio Magic silver cables. Using 7308 tubes gave a slightly more transparent presentation and the JJs added a bit more body and sounded marginally better. Certain kinds of music, like Jazz sounded very good, I was having problems with shouty / piercing treble.

Recently I switched to Druids. On initial hookup I was using the JJ and the piercing treble went away, but a layer of mud was added. Adjusting the bass with the height makes a difference, but overall I would say the JJs were not the right combination in this setup. The 7308s opened up the treble considerably. I'm not 100% satisfied with the sound yet, so I probably will also try different cabling; giving the Ibis cables a shot and may eventually find a replacement for my Varial interconnect.

Hi Fork, the 'earthy' quote was in reference to nos Amperex 7308s: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59217.msg535523#msg535523 -- post no. 23

I have both JJs and nos Amperexes from North Lake. A couple weeks ago I tried switching back to JJs. I can't give much detail on the differences other than the JJs were removed after 20 minutes. The difference was too dramatic in my setup to settle for anything less than the Amperexes -- which are very natural and smooth IMO.

I consider my system pretty sensitive: Extream near-field listeningn position, with Isabella / DAC, Macbook, Sig 30.2 straight amp, Oritek X2 IC, Omega's new Super 6 Alnico Monitors (unbelievable tone with the Isabella

), Anticable and Omega Deep Hemp (small room with lots of ACI traps). So the differences I hear may be magnified compared to others who listen in a larger room from greater distance from ear to speaker.

Kent

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #17 on:** 5 Jan 2009, 04:11 pm »

Hi wilysnet,

Quote

I've been very satisfied with the Isabella, but as I was saying before, I do occasionally want a bit more high frequency sparkle. I'll probably give tube rolling a try with a pair of NOS tubes.

On the cheap, try a pair of Sovtek or Electro-Harmonix tubes (approx. $10 each). I found these to have more top-end energy compared to the stock JJs in the Isabella. I preferred the JJs overall (even in the top end), but it is a matter of taste and system synergy. Of course these are fun to try on the cheap, but I think you'll be happier overall with a good pair of NOS. Finding that "perfect pair" might take some time, but you'll be rewarded and know it when you found them!

Cheers!

Vinnie

wilsynet · « **Reply #18 on:** 17 Jan 2009, 08:09 pm »

Dropped in a pair of Siemens 7308 tubes into the Isabella last night.

In short, it is fantastic.

Where before I may have thought "The Isabella is better overall, but I miss the passive setup sometimes ..." there is now no question. The Isabella is better in every way, significantly better in every way. I'm officially floored.

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #19 on:** 19 Jan 2009, 04:25 am »

Hi Wilson,

Thanks for reporting your findings. I have a pair of gold-pin Siemens E188CCs. I think these are the same as the 7308s you are using. They are indeed very good and have that little bit of extra sparkle on the top, but retain the juicy mids that we love with good NOS.

Quote

there is now no question. The Isabella is better in every way, significantly better in every way. I'm officially floored.

Ahhh, the beauty of tube rolling. With some patience and extra pocket change for NOS tubes, you have such a high probability of fine-tuning the sound (which is already awesome with the stock tubes) to gel perfectly with your system and tastes! aa

I'm very happy for you!

Vinnie