[tcsubwoofer]

Anybody reviewed these Chinese DACs?  I've done a lot of research on DAC's in the sub $1,000 range and for the last couple of weeks I thought I settled on a new or used Benchmark DAC1.  I've bid several times for used Benchmark DAC1 on Audiogon, but haven't been successful in picking one up since they are in high demand.  What sold me on the Benchmark DAC 1 were the reviews, the volume knob, and balanced XLR outs.  I will be using my DAC connected to a HTPC and having a volume knob is a huge priority as I don't intend to buy a preamp.

Quite simply out of a little frustration I did a search on goole for DACs with volume knobs.  I was surprised to find the Citypulse and Xindak DACs (shoot, I thought I had already found most sub $1,000 DACs!).  For the price these look very, very impressive and I may be swayed to them over a benchmark DAC1.  Each comes with a volume knob and/or remote and are very well constructed!

Citypulse DA7.2xII:  http://www.diykits.com.hk/Citypulse%20DA7.2x.htm
Xindak DA-8: http://www.lotusaudioimport.com/

Heck, I can get teh Citypulse with 24/192 upsampling and XLR out for about $500 with shipping brand new.  I'm not exactly clear on the price of the Xindak's yet, but I get the impression they are under $1,000 and the Xindak is a dual SS and tube DAC with remote!  Wow.

OK, more features doesn't equal better sound...but any reviews, impressions, or recommendations for or against these very interesting DACs?  Obvious downside would be challenge to get service or returns for bad units.

[KS]

Also consider the $899 TADAC
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fr.pl?tadac&zzANY

[Charles Calkins]

Tried the Citypulse about five months ago. Didn't like it so did a return. No problem getting a refund.

                                             Cheers
                                             Charlie

[wilsynet]

This thread caught my eye and I felt compelled to push my own agenda. =)

I've gone through the Benchmark, CityPulse, Zhaolu, etc. DACs.  To my ears they are thin, hyper analytical, incredibly fatiguing and harsh.

As long as your preamp or integrated has a minimum 20K input impedance, I'd get an AudioSector DAC.  They are excellent and there are plenty of positive reviews from Bucky and Pardales and others here and on Audiogon.

You might want to put the MHDT Paradisea+ on your list too.

[K.C.]

The Benchmark is a standard in the recording and broadcast industry for good reason. In my studio we track with ProTools HD at sample and bit rates many times what the recording will eventually be delivered at. The DAC-1 gives us faithful playback from the tracking to the mastering.

Abbey Road now uses Benchmark throughout the studio.

[tcsubwoofer]

This thread caught my eye and I felt compelled to push my own agenda. =)

I've gone through the Benchmark, CityPulse, Zhaolu, etc. DACs.  To my ears they are thin, hyper analytical, incredibly fatiguing and harsh.

As long as your preamp or integrated has a minimum 20K input impedance, I'd get an AudioSector DAC.  They are excellent and there are plenty of positive reviews from Bucky and Pardales and others here and on Audiogon.

You might want to put the MHDT Paradisea+ on your list too.

Nice to hear your impressions.  Seems like people love or hate the Benchmark.  I don't understand that since it is so often used in the recording industry.  The AudioSector DAC looks like a very interesting, but odd recommendation.  I'm sold on the quality of this DAC, but given the conversion rate of the Euro to dollar all the features for this puppy would cost be over $1,600 without the car battery.  Is the cost of the parts for this DIY DAC really worth that much?  Plus, its presentation is horrible in that its on a piece of wood - yes apparently the wood contributes to the sonics, but $1,600 US for some parts on a piece of wood?  Would love to hear it and was actually contemplating buying one until I saw the actual price. 

I've strongly considered the MHDT Paradisea and the Havana from MHDT prior to this post, but they don't have balanced XLR out or volume knobs.  I emailed and asked for the XLR out and they said it wasn't possible.  I am very much considering a TADAC at this point.

[tcsubwoofer]

The Benchmark is a standard in the recording and broadcast industry for good reason. In my studio we track with ProTools HD at sample and bit rates many times what the recording will eventually be delivered at. The DAC-1 gives us faithful playback from the tracking to the mastering.

Abbey Road now uses Benchmark throughout the studio.

I have heard that the benchmark is often used in the recording industry.  This brings up an interesting question - why would a DAC which is considered capable of producing a neutral, faithful reproduction from tracking to the mastering by a recording engineer then be considered so fatiguing or grainy by others in the audiophile community? Do recording engineers feel fatigued in their 8-hour job while mixing the tracks?  Of course - I believe many love this DAC and many are dissatisfied.  I'm speaking more to the people who are dissatisfied with the unit considering that some of their original music may have been actually been recorded with the very DAC they don't like. 

In a perfect world I would really like to see blind testing with rapid switching between several DACs, speakers, etc. even done in a recording study to compare to the live recording artist.

[tcsubwoofer]

Also consider the $899 TADAC
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fr.pl?tadac&zzANY

Hey KS, do you have this DAC?  I've never considered a tube DAC seriously, but this has many great reviews at audioreview, a volume knob, remote, and Balanced XLR outs.  I emailed Paul Grzybek on Friday and we've already exchanged 3 emails.  I love companies with attentive service like this.  There is a sale happening as well at $899 for the DAC before he raises the prices back to the $1,300 range in a few weeks.  I am a little turned off by Paul's pricing structure in that he lists the unite for $3,799 retail, but on sale for $1,299, or scratch and dent for $899.  Huge price swings like this diminish credibility, although the reviews and features of this unit seem to make it a value at $899.  Unless my research persuades me otherwise I am very likely to purchase this DAC on Monday.  I'm going to have to take a plunge and get started with a DAC one of these days.

[santacore]

I recently picked up a Xindak DAC-8 and like it a lot. There is no volume knob but you can control the volume via remote if you are using any of the inputs except the USB. For some reason when using the USB inputs, many of the normal function are inactive. Of course I use the USB input which is a bit frustrating. That said it really is a great sounding and flexible DAC.

[jaspal kallar]

The AudioSector DAC looks like a very interesting, but odd recommendation.  I'm sold on the quality of this DAC, but given the conversion rate of the Euro to dollar all the features for this puppy would cost be over $1,600 without the car battery.  Is the cost of the parts for this DIY DAC really worth that much?  Plus, its presentation is horrible in that its on a piece of wood - yes apparently the wood contributes to the sonics, but $1,600 US for some parts on a piece of wood?  Would love to hear it and was actually contemplating buying one until I saw the actual price. 

Slight mistake here tcsubwoofer.  Your talking about the Altmann Attraction Dac.  I believe the AudioSector Dac is sold in the USA and is considerably cheaper and I'm sure it doesn't require a 12V battery.

Cheers,

  jaspal

[musicman06]

The AudioSector DAC looks like a very interesting, but odd recommendation.  I'm sold on the quality of this DAC, but given the conversion rate of the Euro to dollar all the features for this puppy would cost be over $1,600 without the car battery.  Is the cost of the parts for this DIY DAC really worth that much?  Plus, its presentation is horrible in that its on a piece of wood - yes apparently the wood contributes to the sonics, but $1,600 US for some parts on a piece of wood?  Would love to hear it and was actually contemplating buying one until I saw the actual price. 

Slight mistake here tcsubwoofer.  Your talking about the Altmann Attraction Dac.  I believe the AudioSector Dac is sold in the USA and is considerably cheaper and I'm sure it doesn't require a 12V battery.

Cheers,

  jaspal

True. The Audiosector DAC can be bought assembled for about $380US. It would appear to be a case of product confusion.

I've heard good things about it and the Xindak DAC-8, among others. I have the Paradisea+ (non-USB) and would recommend it as a good value product.

Studios need neutral, detailed and clean systems... this doesn't mean you'd enjoy listening to this at home. You also don't see a lot of near field monitors in home systems. The reproduction quality of the Benchmark is excellent in a textbook way, but as we know textbook doesn't always translate to real world very well. Don't forget several recordings are subpar and you really don't want to hear all the "stuff" in the bad ones. All things being perfect the DAC-1 would be a world beater, of course that will never be the case. Also careful with the exaggerations regarding the wide professional use of the Benchmark, which is marketed as a consumer piece, and not used by most of the major studios.

[Angaria]

Did not find the citypulse to be hard or fatiguing in the least, but I was using it on a tube/tripath system.  Great value imho.

[wilsynet]

Confirming what MusicMan06 and jaspal are saying.  The Altmann Attraction is a NOS DAC, lists for around $1600, is battery powered, and is not a DIY kit.  The AudioSector NOS DAC is typically sold as a DIY kit and can be purchased for less than $400.  A nicer case for the AudioSector rather than a plain wood board can be had for less than $200 more.  For more information, go to the AudioSector site and email Peter Daniel.

The TADAC does look interesting.  I've heard good things about it.  No USB however, and these days I think all DACs should have USB input.  A Macintosh or PC (with asio drivers) is a world class transport.

Lack of a volume knob shouldn't be a show stopper.  Niteshade Audio will sell you a passive preamp for $150 which is (and I'm only guessing here) likely better than the volume pot they stuck on the CityPulse anyway.

Everyone's ears are different.  While I will never be a recording engineer, that shouldn't prevent me from enjoying listening to music in my house. =)  The CityPulse is probably not fatiguing or harsh or thin sounding to many people, but it, and the Benchmark too, do sound that way to me.  I stumbled upon NOS DACs less than a year ago and haven't looked back.

As for the Benchmark's popularity in recording studios, my guess is that the DAC is a tool, one tool among many that a sound or recording engineer may use to help them engineer a track.  The Benchmark's hyper detail is no doubt very, very useful.  Whether the same recording engineer would go home and prefer to listen to a Benchmark over some other well regarded DAC in his or her home stereo system is I think a relevant question.  Whether his or her home stereo would be representative of something an audiophile might have is, I think, an interesting question too.

I'm a software developer by trade, and when I'm at work I use debuggers, assemblers, linkers, etc.  As I write software I need to get into the details of the code, and I need to use tools to assist me in that effort.  But when I go home and I'm browsing the web for enjoyment, there is simply no desire to pull out a debugger to see how Firefox decodes it's HTTP headers and how IE renders HTML to the screen.

I fell in love with computers at a young age, and later on fell in love with the Apple Macintosh.  When I worked at a video game company programming with Microsoft Windows and Visual Studio, I still went home and used my Macintosh for everything that wasn't work related.  I guess what I'm saying is that we shouldn't necessarily confuse what one uses professionally with what one loves and uses personally.

[JIMV]

As for the Benchmark's popularity in recording studios, my guess is that the DAC is a tool, one tool among many that a sound or recording engineer may use to help them engineer a track.  The Benchmark's hyper detail is no doubt very, very useful.

I use a DAC1 with a tubed amp and it is most asuredly NOT fatiguing but is is very detailed. Perhaps it is a beter fit wirh a tubed system.

[PeteG]

I’ve been very happy with a NOS dac from china. The Consonance Dac16 is very easy on the ears and I can listen all night with no fatigue.

[K.C.]

I have heard that the benchmark is often used in the recording industry.  This brings up an interesting question - why would a DAC which is considered capable of producing a neutral, faithful reproduction from tracking to the mastering by a recording engineer then be considered so fatiguing or grainy by others in the audiophile community?

Because most people have no idea what a recording sounded like when it was recorded and prefer their own idea (embellished) of what something should sound like. The vast majority of audiophile gear is inaccurate.

The reason the Benchmark is a reference in the studio is because it doesn't interpret. It's accurate and uncolored.

As for the Benchmark's popularity in recording studios, my guess is that the DAC is a tool, one tool among many that a sound or recording engineer may use to help them engineer a track.  The Benchmark's hyper detail is no doubt very, very useful.  Whether the same recording engineer would go home and prefer to listen to a Benchmark over some other well regarded DAC in his or her home stereo system is I think a relevant question.  Whether his or her home stereo would be representative of something an audiophile might have is, I think, an interesting question too.

The Benchmark is not hyper-detailed, it's accurate.

I have tracked thousands of hours of audio and it's the only D/A I have found that is faithful to the original. I'm not alone in this experience, hence it's the standard in major studios that can afford anything they want.

And yes, I do listen to one at home and one in my office in addition to the studio.

[tcsubwoofer]

Confirming what MusicMan06 and jaspal are saying.  The Altmann Attraction is a NOS DAC, lists for around $1600, is battery powered, and is not a DIY kit.  The AudioSector NOS DAC is typically sold as a DIY kit and can be purchased for less than $400.  A nicer case for the AudioSector rather than a plain wood board can be had for less than $200 more.  For more information, go to the AudioSector site and email Peter Daniel.

To all- thank you for pointing out my mistake.  I think I got lost in the links.  I'll review information about the Audiosector DAC more closely as that DAC is in my budget.

I agree that what one may strive for at work or the recording studio is different than what we want to create at home.  In the end I do believe that most audiophiles are trying to create music to their taste or to hear certain aspects of music most pleasing to them and these may or may not be accurate to the true recording.  That is what has made my DAC search so difficult in trying to figure out what sound I like.  I can tell you that most audiophile setups don't appeal to me - case in point I have very hard time enjoying music through two-way speakers no matter how expensive or well regarded.  If the bass isn't low and authoritative (even if overaccentuated by the room) I really can't get involved with the music.  At RMAF in Denver this year I rarely stopped by any rooms showing only 2-way monitors.

To share on your computer comments I have an old mac that I love, but am a Vista user right now.  Will be buying another Apple down the road, but my HTPC is based on Vista Media Center which is quite a nice media interface.

[tcsubwoofer]

"Because most people have no idea what a recording sounded like when it was recorded and prefer their own idea (embellished) of what something should sound like. The vast majority of audiophile gear is inaccurate.

The reason the Benchmark is a reference in the studio is because it doesn't interpret. It's accurate and uncolored."

I couldn't agree with you more. I've grown to recognize that in large measure an embellished sound is often the most preferred and the systems I put together cater to my taste.  I have no idea how closely my final system will be to the real thing.  That is why I take most reviews with a grain of salt as this or that DAC/speaker/amp conveyed a better reproduction of the music.  Maybe better repainting of the music would be better.  This DAC search of mine has been challenging and I'll just have to take the plunge.  Glad to hear your take on the Benchmark as I imagine one who has experience recording and also listening at home would know what true reproduction sounds like. 

[K.C.]

There's nothing wrong with configuring a system to create an interpretation of a recording that suits your preference, accurate or otherwise. That's half the fun.

I just don't do it at the D/A.

I run different amps and occasionally different speakers to change things up. Right now I'm listening to Quicksilver Silver 60 monos biamping with a Threshold on bass through Pargadigm Signature 4s. I also have a Music Reference RM-9 and RM-10, Pathos and Counterpoint SA-220 amps. Every now and then my old Celestion SL6s come off the shelf and I enjoy imaging like nothing else can do. There's also a pair of Vandersteen S3a signtures I enjoy immensely.

We do the same thing in the studio to simulate the various systems that our recordings may be played on, we change amps and speakers but we leave the D/A alone. If the D/A isn't neutral you have no idea what the rest of the gear is doing.

[aaron smithski]

Hey KS, do you have this DAC?  I've never considered a tube DAC seriously, but this has many great reviews at audioreview, a volume knob, remote, and Balanced XLR outs.  I emailed Paul Grzybek on Friday and we've already exchanged 3 emails.  I love companies with attentive service like this.  There is a sale happening as well at $899 for the DAC before he raises the prices back to the $1,300 range in a few weeks.  I am a little turned off by Paul's pricing structure in that he lists the unite for $3,799 retail, but on sale for $1,299, or scratch and dent for $899.  Huge price swings like this diminish credibility, although the reviews and features of this unit seem to make it a value at $899.  Unless my research persuades me otherwise I am very likely to purchase this DAC on Monday.  I'm going to have to take a plunge and get started with a DAC one of these days.

I will have the TADAC delivered Monday morning...just in time for me to leave town for 4 days. 

Paul has been excellent in regards to the questions I've had for him -- very prompt replies and great information. I am excited to get this in my system and hooked up to my Onix LS-6's. 

I have no point of comparison to how good it will be though as I've not tried any other external DACs. I'm expecting it to be a huge upgrade to the DAC in my Onix (Shanling) CD player.

Paul also mentioned to me that the previous customers that own both his well-received TAD 150 tube preamp and the TADAC much prefer the TADAC's preamp section over the 150's...I think that bodes very well for the TADAC.