[NewBuyer]

tcsubwoofer,

I strongly agree with everything KC has said here.  I recently purchased a Benchmark DAC1 PRE, and I assure you that it is definitely not fatiguing, grainy, clinical, etc at all.  In fact, it is the best D/A I've ever heard.  The volume control is extremely convenient too, and completely transparent as well.  The volume control was a primary reason I originally bought the DAC1 PRE, and honestly I wasn't expecting such an incredible sound experience from it - but I would never go back to any other previous DAC now.  Consider just trying it under the return policy, but I will bet you won't be returning it. 

[PhilNYC]

The Benchmark is a standard in the recording and broadcast industry for good reason. In my studio we track with ProTools HD at sample and bit rates many times what the recording will eventually be delivered at. The DAC-1 gives us faithful playback from the tracking to the mastering.

Abbey Road now uses Benchmark throughout the studio.

I have heard that the benchmark is often used in the recording industry.  This brings up an interesting question - why would a DAC which is considered capable of producing a neutral, faithful reproduction from tracking to the mastering by a recording engineer then be considered so fatiguing or grainy by others in the audiophile community? Do recording engineers feel fatigued in their 8-hour job while mixing the tracks?  Of course - I believe many love this DAC and many are dissatisfied.  I'm speaking more to the people who are dissatisfied with the unit considering that some of their original music may have been actually been recorded with the very DAC they don't like. 

In a perfect world I would really like to see blind testing with rapid switching between several DACs, speakers, etc. even done in a recording study to compare to the live recording artist.

Here is a list of companies that use Benchmark products:
http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/users/

It would be interesting to pick up recordings from the studios on this list that produce music and see what they sound like...(note that Telarc is on this list...would be curious as to where they use Benchmark products, as I have been told that they are a big dCS user as well)...

[K.C.]

Here is a list of companies that use Benchmark products:
http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/users/

It would be interesting to pick up recordings from the studios on this list that produce music and see what they sound like...(note that Telarc is on this list...would be curious as to where they use Benchmark products, as I have been told that they are a big dCS user as well)...

What most people don't know is that Benchmark has been a reference for many components in the broadcast industry for decades. If you walked into the control rooms of the major TV studios in L.A. you would see racks and racks of Benchmark gear. Not just converters but preamps and line amps. They are renowned for dependability and accurate sound.

I have some 96Khz A/D Benchmark converters in my studio that put my Digidesign 192Khz converters to shame. They're the first 8 we track with on every recording and we only use the Digis when we need to lay down more than 8 tracks simultaneously. Fortunately that's not often.

The Benchmarks installed at Abbey Road last year replaced Prism converters that cost many times what the Benchmark does. The improvement was significant.

[wilsynet]

The Benchmark may very well be an industry standard.  Be that as it may,  I can't listen to a Benchmark DAC for more than half an hour before fatigue sets in.  However accurate the Benchmark is on paper, however many racks and racks of Benchmark gear sit in recording studios around the world, I nevertheless have a strong, personal dislike for them.  Everyone's ears are different and your mileage may vary of course.

Wilson

[K.C.]

The Benchmark may very well be an industry standard.  Be that as it may,  I can't listen to a Benchmark DAC for more than half an hour before fatigue sets in.  However accurate the Benchmark is on paper, however many racks and racks of Benchmark gear sit in recording studios around the world, I nevertheless have a strong, personal dislike for them.  Everyone's ears are different and your mileage may vary of course.

Wilson

Remember it's one component in the system.

I'd suggest it's just revealing what the rest of the system sounds like but you never heard before.

[wilsynet]

I'd suggest it's just revealing what the rest of the system sounds like but you never heard before.

Or maybe the rest of the system is revealing what the DAC sounds like. =)

[NewBuyer]

Or maybe the rest of the system is revealing what the DAC sounds like. =)

Oh shuuuuuure - that definitely must be it! 

[pardales]

Its an interesting question. Can a DAC reveal that an amp is poor quality? Or, can a DAC reveal that a pair of speakers suck? It would seem to me that a quality amp and pair of speakers could help one hear obvious differences between different sources, not the other way around. The DAC might help discern the quality of different recordings. Obviously synergy of the whole system is key but it does not seem to me that a DAC will allow one to judge the components that come after it (at least until those components are replaced).

I am not sure. 

For the record I owned one of the first generation Benchmark DAC-1's. While it sounded quite good I found I could not live with the sound long-term -- moved to the Altmann at that point. Has the DAC-1 changed much in its subsequent generations? Anyone hear both older and newer versions?

[JIMV]

For the record I owned one of the first generation Benchmark DAC-1's. While it sounded quite good I found I could not live with the sound long-term -- moved to the Altmann at that point. Has the DAC-1 changed much in its subsequent generations? Anyone hear both older and newer versions?

I bought a used DAC1 dated from 2002 on E-bay. I had it a month and liked the sound but wanted it updated so I contacted Benchmark. They have a great program in which they bring upsampling capabilities up to date and change out the volumn assembly to the latest, all for a very nominal price. In addition, they do the update within a day or so of receiving the gear (they even provided a new box when they shipped it back. The unit looked new).

After all that I am unable to detect any giant night and day change in sound on my modest system from before the update to after. The one thing I can say is that there is no grain or fatigue in that thing on my system. I find I can listen to the system louder without listener fatigue. In addition, and only based on limited time with the unit, I might say it is more discerning of cable changes. My Kimber PBJ interconnects seem to have a more extended sound stage while my transparent cable has that and a much better sound stage singer/instrument location in space than my old system had. I did replace the stock power cable with the most basic PS audio one with only minor percieved sound improvement. I would say the trip to the factory was worth the time and expense and the company is flat out great to deal with. I suspect significant improvements in that update might require better gear than I have to be fully appreciated but I like the idea of havng a component that operates better than the rest of my stuff.

All told, I find it is much more discerning than I expected. I suspect a good player used as transport would have a big difference.

[tcsubwoofer]

This has been a great thread on the Benchmark and although I had tried to get a hold of a Benchmark used I just wasn't able to grab one when I needed it.  Given that my budget was around $800 I really couldn't stretch for a new one at $1000 (and also buy a new toslink card for my PC).  Also opted to not go for the Citypulse or Xindax right now.  So I opted to by the Tube Audio Design TADAC and has all the features I've wanted thus far - balanced audio, remote, volume, jitter correction, great reviews, great support.  I'm excited to find out what it sounds like.  Paul Gryzybek listed two on ebay with the option to receive a hefty microsoft live search discount and now I get a nice new DAC for a great price.  Paul was outstanding for promptness and support and actually finished building my unit on Sunday (I ordered Sunday morning) and delivered to FEDEX Sunday night.  Fantastic!     I want to thank Aaron Smithski for the tip on this deal.  If anybody is interested there is one new TADAC still left for sale on ebay.

[pardales]

This has been a great thread on the Benchmark and although I had tried to get a hold of a Benchmark used I just wasn't able to grab one when I needed it.  Given that my budget was around $800 I really couldn't stretch for a new one at $1000 (and also buy a new toslink card for my PC).  Also opted to not go for the Citypulse or Xindax right now.  So I opted to by the Tube Audio Design TADAC and has all the features I've wanted thus far - balanced audio, remote, volume, jitter correction, great reviews, great support.  I'm excited to find out what it sounds like.  Paul Gryzybek listed two on ebay with the option to receive a hefty microsoft live search discount and now I get a nice new DAC for a great price.  Paul was outstanding for promptness and support and actually finished building my unit on Sunday (I ordered Sunday morning) and delivered to FEDEX Sunday night.  Fantastic!     I want to thank Aaron Smithski for the tip on this deal.  If anybody is interested there is one new TADAC still left for sale on ebay.

Let us know how you like it after you lived with it for a while. Hope it works out.

[cornelius]

An accurate DAC never caused me fatigue, certain speaker designs, absolutely. 

[Kane Williams]

I have a Xindak DAC-5 and think it's great. I use it for producing my own music and for playback of other people's music. I have an SM Pro M-Patch 2, which isexcellent. It's a passive volume control (balanced) and is dead cheap.

[undertow]

"What most people don't know is that Benchmark has been a reference for many components in the broadcast industry for decades. If you walked into the control rooms of the major TV studios in L.A. you would see racks and racks of Benchmark gear. Not just converters but preamps and line amps. They are renowned for dependability and accurate sound."

HA, No wonder we all fight for better sound! This explains it, basically all these statements about the benchmark do for me is realize thats why the "Benchmark" of many of the recordings we buy suck....

I feel most audiophiles or "Organic" music listeners should not fall into the trap of "Because professionals say so" approach, most of these guys probably have damaged or dulled hearing from all the live instruments playing everyday and headphone use... So don't trust them to tell you how your home system should sound when your looking for smooth, full of body, and engaging musical systems.

Disclaimer I never have heard the "Benchmark" Dacs... But I doubt they have what I would consider full blown full range body and sound from seeing the opposing views.. This is why tubes are not considered accurate too, they make stuff that is lifeless sound listenable! Call it what you want, Color, un-accurate, whatever, give me body, give me dynamics, and give me soundstage, I can care less if its considered "Accurate"...
So my suggestion is buyer beware.

By the way out of the pro Dac category the Lavry is considered in most circles more of the musical or relaxed DACs with still good "accuracy" .. I have not heard it either, but obviously its another DAC of this class that in many ways is held in higher regard and has a different sound.. So who is right? Your ears that’s it!

Again this is not an attack, but simply some guys and systems might swing one way or the other... So buyer beware once again, I see TONS of benchmarks for sale weekly all over the net used.

[santacore]

I've been a post production mixer working in Los Angeles for about 10 years. In that time I think I can remember 1 studio that had a benchmark D/A converter in it. Outside of that, just about every place uses stock digidesign converters that go with there Pro Tools rigs. To be fair a few places used Apogee (which aren't neutral either) and Lavry.

I actually own some Benchmark A/D converters in my work rig, I think they are fine. Better then the Apogee's I previously owned. That said, I tried the D/A converter and didn't like them as much. I've also owned Lavry D/A and Apogee D/A and in the end didn't love either. I think they are all good converters, but each has it's own shortcoming.

[tvyankee]

Hello

I have been working in broadcast for the past 16 years (EIC) in new york city&LA and have worked on everything from the Grammy's to a bullshit webcast and everything else in between and i tell you first and foremost that no one is using a benchmark dac to do any real edits except for maybe news stuff. If you are doing real music with multi camera(Dave Matthew's Central Park) you are putting a rack of mic pre's out on the stage and fiber channeling them back to something like a Iconn by Digi Design console and laying it down into pro tools and then mixing the tracks down from there. And they are not using benchmark anything for real mastering. Maybe a Phoenix stack or something that cost 30 or 40 grand not something cost $1500.00 bucks. I just want people to know that stuff that people do in TV doesn't suck its the delivery system that everybody listens on that sucks. Like Cable or Sat. Also if you ever get the chance go into TV truck or a real TV studio and ask to hear play back of like a $50,000.00 awa500 Sony digi tape machine that has music on it and let me know how much it sucks.

Sorry,just had to put that out there.

[undertow]

tvyankee
I can agree, sorry I was not really looking to exploit "TV" or live broadcast problems... I understand, I only high lighted this statement as a bit misleading and completley strange attempt to sell off that a benchmark dac is some sorta "Benchmark". Of course the delivery system for broadcast is the issue in that case.. Who cares though how good some disney concert on channel 7 for an hour, the grammys, or seinfield sounds? I was more directing at the point the industry in the studio may not be a good measuring stick for peoples personal use and equipment.

Hey says you are a dealer for the april Music stuff, They have that Stello signature DAC right? Very feature packed and looks pretty good for the price, any opinion on it? Seems it could give a lavry or benchmark a run for the money.

Thanks

[tvyankee]

hey

thanks for understanding where I'm coming from. and yes i am a dealer for april music and yes the little bugger packs a punch. i like it more then the benchmark myself and yes i had a benchmark for months to compare it too.  and i have had a ps audio and have been around and listen to a lot of dacs in the price range and i have always like this one better. thats not to say that some of the other dac's don't do some things better or the same its just that this one i think does a lot right and its the least expensive of them all. $895.00 not bad. but don't listen to me and read some of the new reviews that are out.

thanks

[undertow]

Sounds good, what DAC chip is that thing using? This will give an idea if its true balanced or not.. Thanks again

[Muser]

Just to "add" some feedback to all of this. I've listened at length (2-3 months) to the Benchmark DAC1 circa 2002, the "new" Benchmark DAC1 circa 2008 (for a week), the Apogee Mini DAC (for about a year), the Lavry DA10 (for a weekend), and a $600 Stello DAC (for 2-3 months) though not with a volume control, i.e. a different model than mentioned.

Whomever commented on what you work with may not be what you want to play with seems to hit the nail on the head, for me at least. How you might want to listen would make a huge difference. If you want to know everything that's going on, and sit in the first rows of a concert, you'd probably want something like the Benchmark. If the product is supposed to recreate a "live experience," what live experience is that? Does that make front row "correct/accurate" and mid hall "euphonic/inaccurate/wrong?" Reference experiences or equipment are just that, something from which or to which to refer. It's not "RIGHT" it's just a reference.

Returning to the DAC1, FWIW, I don't hear a lot of difference between the 2002 and 2008 DAC1, though the latter seemed a little bit less intense. Naturally, my 2002 and 2008 systems weren't the same, so MY mileage varied.

Neither DAC1 was grainy. It might be fatiguing, though I'd say it was more like a new and stronger eye glass prescription with more detail than I was used to and hear when I hear live music. It was also more detail than I hear in my preferred concert seats, which are mid hall. I expect that extraordinary focus would be great in the studio, and if that's what you listened to at the office you might want the same at home, though I wouldn't. It's imaging was unquestionably the best of any of the gear I've heard, but to me that's so far down the line of important things as to be a "so what" character. Overall, it's an extraordinary product, though not one I'd purchase.

The Lavry DA10 was much softer sounding than the DAC1, and to my ears clearly more euphonic and less engaging, if also not the infusion of adrenaline that the DAC1 was. It's a nice sounding DAC, though not a really compelling product for my taste and experience. I felt like I was hearing a lot less and would probably choose the DAC1 before the Lavry, though this is not a binary world/choice. The DA10 is probably a desired product for those that listened to hyper detailed, etched and nasty sounding digital from the 80s and 90s.

The Stello DAC was more like the DA10 than the DAC1, but lacking sufficient performance or character for that matter (a good thing), I was less engaged by its performance than either of the pieces above. This was an OK, polite DAC rather than a "high end" piece.

The Apogee Mini DAC was less resolving than the DAC1 but seemed more natural to me than all of the above. Used as a DAC-preamp, it was better than as a simple DAC and gained some of the intensity of the DAC1 without becoming too much of an adrenaline ride. Or said differently, it was more like what I hear with live instruments in my normal listening room. I heard it as musical, engaging and certainly highlighted differences in equipment, including if not especially cables, whether connected to the Apogee or elsewhere in the system. I'd choose the Apogee over the DAC1 or the DA10 or the Stello DAC without question. I really disliked all of the dancing lights on the front of the Mini DAC, which is one reason I didn't keep it. Yes, that's a strange way to make a choice, but factors are factors.

The best digital piece I've used by a long shot was the way more expensive EAR Yoshino Acute CD player. It's retail of $5500 seems fair, considering what its competitors charge and that the Acute beat them all. The Acute is too rich for my blood just yet. And, it only plays CDs. I've been holding out for a DAC with multiple inputs. I hear Tim de Paravicini (EAR and Acute designer) has been working on such a DAC for a while. A prototype might be available at CES 2009, though it might not be, too. I'd be very interested in that, but again that might be a bit rich for my blood, and is certainly way more expensive than the DACs mentioned above. I brought it up, however, because it's very musical, presents detail the way I hear it in mid hall and at home in the same carpeted and draped room where our piano and multiple brass instruments play. Yes it has tubes, though it doesn't have a tube sound. And, for those that can truly afford ANYTHING, e.g. Paul McCartney, Tim designs custom equipment for that ilk. As a piece of equipment, I'd call the Acute a very worthy reference because it also sounds like live music in my listening room.

Having said that I'm considering the Twisted Pear Buffalo DAC. It fits my current diminished budget, it's less expensive than the $1,000 DACs, though it requires soldering and other assembly and so isn't directly comparable. I have not heard it, but have been experimenting with a DIY DAC I purchased from Taiwan that sounds quite nice. Given that experience and what I have read about the Buffalo's performance I'm interested. This last paragraph may have no value to the rest of the discussion, but it's where I'm looking rather than at any of the $1,000 DACs. This opinion (mine) is like other's, just an opinion. And intended to provide a bit broader feedback, given my opportunity to listen to several of the DACs mentioned.

Hope that provides something for other posters or those interested. And, just my $0.02.

Larry