[Dan_ed]

Yes, sounds like you're betwixed and between. Sounds like right now you just have a gain issue. There is no harm in turning the knobs up to get the level you want. Without a load setting closer to what that cartridge wants you may not have a choice between the MC and MM settings, but you won't hurt anything trying it both ways.

BTW, it wouldn't hurt to try adding a few grams to the headshell end with the Rb300. A little blue-tac would work. Try to get it closer 8 grams and see how it sounds.

[Wayner]

The output of the cartridge is too low. You have to run the box on the MC setting. That will give you approximately 40db of gain, not 20db which is not enough to drive your line inputs (CD input). That is why you have to put the volume control way over to 5 o'clock which is very bad. Put it at MC and then dial in the settings for capacitance at the closest value for your cartridge. This will also reduce your rumble and woofer pumping (may axctually eliminate it).

Wayner

[bluemike]

Thanks Dan for chiming in ..I need all the help I can get  

By turning up the volume way high on my pre amp does this excite the cone flapping or are the 2 unrelated ?

[bluemike]

Thanks Wayner ...this is slowly started to come together
What capicitance do I use ..I have included the phono specs above as i'm not sure

Have I done damage to my preamp or amp by having the volume up so high
the sonic filter was on all the time

[Dan_ed]

Volume control is an exercise in attenuation. When you have the volume turned down you are blocking the amount of signal allow to pass through the preamp. Turning it up will not hurt anything, IMO, but it may or may not sound as good. (Always a caveat here when you get to specific equipment.)

If your amp has plenty of balls, lots of current, how ever you want to say it, then the woofer excursions will not do any damage. Try to make sure you aren't clipping. However, as others have posted, this could have an impact on how the bass sounds.

I agree with wayner that the best would be to use the MC gain stage, but that loading will have a profound impact on the sound. You'll have to decide which setting you like more until you can get a 1K or 2K load.

[bluemike]

Thanks Dan/Wayner for all your help here
 
My amp has a lot of balls 120watts per channel and the subsonic filter is on
I just got the table and the cart so i've been listening to it at relatiely low volumes

I realized something was not right when I wasn't getting any base and dynamics from the turntable and had to turn the volume way up.  I could also hear a bit of tube noise when the volume was turned up but no distortion

Is it ok to experiment with different capicitance settings (the volume will be quite low)

[Dan_ed]

My amp has a lot of balls 120watts per channel and the subsonic filter is on 

But how efficient are your speakers?

Capacitance wouldn't have much impact on an MC cartridge.

[bluemike]

My amp has a lot of balls 120watts per channel and the subsonic filter is on 

But how efficient are your speakers?

Capacitance wouldn't have much impact on an MC cartridge.
[/quote

 My speakers are 88db (Ridge Street Sason's)
I guess it a matter of experimenting with which pf volume sounds best

[Wayner]

Changing capacitance will only affect how the cartridge will roll off on the highend. Fiddle away!

[Dan_ed]

yeah, what wayner said.

Be careful. 88db with 120watts. I'd keep the volume reasonable.

[bluemike]

Thanks For all your help Guys 

[blakep]

If you are going to use the MC input on the Project, it is the input impedance you want to play with, not the capacitance (which is on the MM input). The Denon DL 110 is a high output MC cartridge designed to be used into a MM/47K input. My understanding is that when you run that into a typical 100 ohm MC input, the cartridge's output will be halved, so if its true output is 2.2 mV, it will now be putting out 1.1 mV; with 60 db of gain on the MC input you'll still have plenty of gain, maybe too much.

The Project has 40 db of gain on the MM input; ideally the Denon if it really does have around 2.2 mV output would like to see around 43 db of gain. 3 db is a bit short but should not present too much of a problem.

As I've suggested above, if you are using the MC input, experiment with the input impedance settings. I'd go one step either side of the 100 ohm setting to see what the differences are. If you are running between 11 and 1 PM on the volume control with your preamp for full volume and the sound is full, that should be ok. Don't worry about it. Typically your volume control with vinyl will always be higher than with CD, but 5 o'clock and anemic sound is indicative of lack of gain.

Just to totally screw you up, my number one suggestion would be this:

Take your CD player off the Aux. and plug it into the CD input. Then take the Project and run it into the Aux. and run the Denon into the MM/47K input on the Project. You could experiment with capacitance settings-I'm not sure there will be much of a difference with a high output MC cartridge-the capacitance settings are really for straight MM cartridges.

I'm making an educated guess that the Aux input on your preamp will offer a bit more output/gain than the CD input as most CD players and DVD players have very serious output and often CD inputs will be spec'd with this in mind. My guess is the Aux input is where you want to be with the Vinyl. If not, stick to the MC setting and experiment away with the impedance settings.

[Wayner]

The CD input and AUX inputs are all line level. There will be no difference.

Wayner

[blakep]

The CD input and AUX inputs are all line level. There will be no difference.

Wayner

They're quite different on an Audiolab 8000A that I own. CD input sensitivity is 200 mV and impedance is 10K while other line level inputs have 100 mV sensitivity and 20K impedance.

[Wayner]

OK, but most preamps have all the same input sensitivity and impedance.

[bluemike]

More interesting info to read

Does the cartridge that i'm running with the Project phono stage and my Pre amp considered a bad match

By going to CARTS with output around 0.25-0.70 MV would this reduce my gain problem and lower the distortion i'm hearing

My main concern here is not doing any damage to my electonics as a result of too high or low gain as i'm in between inputs

[blakep]

Mike:

As I said above, your Denon DL 110 is a high output moving coil designed to be used into a 47K load MM input. You can match up ideal gain/outputs at www.kabusa.com using the phono preamp gain computer.

FWIW, I've found the KAB gain computer to be just about dead on with respect to cartridge output/phono preamp gain matching. I have a phono stage with infinitely adjustable gain for low output MC's between 55 and 75 db and, at least in my system, getting it dead on is well worth it. Being out 2-3 db is acceptable if that's as close as you can get. IMO being out 6 db or more is a complete waste of time-you may as well find another source.

As you've noted, it's been reported that both the 110 and 160 actually output around 2.2 mV as opposed to the 1.6 mV that Denon quotes. I've never used the combination but there are a lot of people using the Denons (110's and 160's) with, say, the Cambridge Audio 640P, some of whom use the MM input (39 db of gain) and are happy and others who use the MC input (55 db gain) and are happy. Technically, though, the 110/160 are designed to be used into the 47k input. Low output moving coils generally want to see much lower loads between 50 (or less) and 1000 ohms.

Getting the gain right is critical (IMO the most critical thing) in terms of analog. I think that many users new to analog end up liking more, and possibly excessive, gain because they perceive it to be "more dynamic" and they want the volume control on their preamp or integrated to be close to where it is with CD. This is not likely to happen in a well set up analog system. But not having enough gain is just as much, if not more, a problem. I once ordered a phono stage that was to be customized with 62 db of gain for an Ortofon MC 20 cartridge. When it arrived, it had been customized by mistake to 56 db. of gain. Even with the volume control on my integrated almost fully maxed out it sounded horrible. Ended up having the proper value resistors installed to get the right gain and all was well.

High output MC's can be a bit problematic because most phono preamps have MM stages with gain which is more appropriate for MM cartridges having outputs of 4-5 mV and MC stages with 55-62 db of gain which work well with low output MC's having .25-.70 mV or so outputs. Unfortunately the high output MC's are kind of in a no man's land right in the middle.

[woodsyi]

Getting the gain right is critical (IMO the most critical thing) in terms of analog.

Interesting opinion. 

[blakep]

Getting the gain right is critical (IMO the most critical thing) in terms of analog.

Interesting opinion. 

Well, perhaps I've overstated as there are a lot of critical factors in getting optimal analog sound. Seems to me, though, that matching gain to output is certainly one of the most ignored. IME mismatches of even 2-3 db are audible and there's a real magic to be obtained from proper matching of gain to output much like, for example, dialing in cartridge alignment and proper VTA and VTF or proper matching of cartridge to tonearm. It's right up there in terms of really getting great sound out of a turntable as opposed to just "ok" sound or crappy sound at its worst.

[TheChairGuy]

Blake - I've found the same about gain. 

I'd have to rate it well above the much-talked-about VTA (or stylus rake angle) to better enjoy vinyl playback.

John