ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac

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Wayner

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #100 on: 7 Nov 2008, 04:44 pm »
According to the attached article, the important thing isn't the detachable cable as much as it is the anti-RFI IEC socket used with it.

Is the author correct?

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/filter.html

Otis, that is a very special IEC socket with built in filter usually fitted to lots of medical equipment. I know that the pieces of equipment that I have  are just the normal socket.

Wayner  :D

miklorsmith

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #101 on: 7 Nov 2008, 05:01 pm »
If the IEC haters really would like an honest discussion of the topic outside the safe, comfy confines of the AVA circle maybe we could all agree to have an unfiltered discussion on a neutral field elsewhere on AC.  I am very interested in hearing what some of the other lab rats might have to say on the topic who might respectfully decline to spill in Frank's house.

Plus, we are way off-topic anyway - this would be a good place to split.

fsimms

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #102 on: 7 Nov 2008, 06:24 pm »
Sounds good miklor

miklorsmith

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #103 on: 7 Nov 2008, 06:32 pm »
Done - new thread started.

fsimms

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #104 on: 7 Nov 2008, 07:09 pm »


Quote
Done - new thread started.

While you were starting your topic, I started one too.   Mine is in the Lab section so I think both discussions are usefull.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=61372.0

mark funk

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #105 on: 7 Nov 2008, 07:22 pm »
This cable stuff has been going on for years. Who do you be leave? My wife works at Fermilab here in Batavia Il., all though most of the big guns are over in Cren right now there are still people here that know what is going on. The last few times I came for lunch with my wife I talked to some of the guys you know those physics science guys about cabling in HiFi. The physics guys were too in to there new Particle made of three quarks The Omega-sub-b but a few of the engineers had some things to say and they quickly got over my head (no one called me a dumbass) but in the end they were along the same lines as Frank about cabling. So who do you be leave, the physics or the guy in the back of the buss? I well get off at this stop thanks. :smoke:

mfsoa

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #106 on: 7 Nov 2008, 07:54 pm »
Ahhh, you have convinced me that my wife and I did not hear the change we thought we heard (although we both heard the identical change), since there are some people in the field of physics that know way more about electricity than me.  :scratch:

Again, the fact that I do not understand why does not in any way change what I am hearing. Sure it'd be great to have some correlation, but in general I don't see "why" as being a requirement to perceiving "what".  :scratch:

It's like the differences between original CD vs. CDs burned to different types of discs vs. CDs w/ green marker. I swapped them around for several friends (who didn't know what was being changed in the system) and the differences were readily apparent. (MAM-A Gold w/ marker was best) I don't know why, but that does not change in any way what we all heard.

Since I am a chromatographer, (and can separate and analyze complex mixtures) does this give me any insight into what a certain vodka might taste like? No. Will I tell you that two vodkas taste alike because I cannot measure the difference between them? No. If I measure a difference between two vodkas, will I tell you that you can therefore taste a difference between them? No.

Sorry for belaboring this in your "room", Frank. It's a privilege to be able hear your side of things and I do greatly respect your engineering acheivements and the joy that you have brought into people's homes.

-The unwashed


avahifi

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #107 on: 7 Nov 2008, 08:20 pm »
My own personal experience is that when I have been able to show people in person at the test bench that their favorite pet audio accessory or thingie or cable is actually making the waveform look worse, that at that point for some unknown reason they tend to stop liking that thingie right now.

I remember one reviewer who loved a pet preamp that would put out over 100 volts of clean signal (so they claimed).  True - into an open circuit - but it distorted terribly at 2 volts out into a standard IHF load (10,000 ohms in parallel with 1000 pF).  I sent him scope photos along with the unit when I returned it, and just like magic, it vanished from his rave list.

When you find out what your unit is really doing, you can make more informed and less emotional choices and save money.

Just tell me what electrical characteristics a good sounding cable or AC cord or interconnect should have and I will work on examining what makes sense.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

Wayner

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #108 on: 7 Nov 2008, 09:29 pm »
Perhaps zero resistance, zero capacitance and zero impedance, Ol capitan!

 aa

No, seriously. Frank, lets put in a terminal block in the back to accept up to #2 AWG wire and they can bypass the outlet and power cord altogether, by wiring direct!

 :drool:

Lancelot

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #109 on: 7 Nov 2008, 10:00 pm »
So , Frank, you believe that people should buy components that are well engineered ( and any improvements would likely be inaudible) and therefore often save some money . Laudable sentiments. We don't want emotional buying-measurements only.

BUT, your infamous reviewed $1600 DAC, must be an excellent value for money. Since you are so good with measurements etc. could you explain why your DAC is superior to the Benchmark DAC that provides outstanding measurements on its own but is priced at $1000. According to your standards, any other reason would likely be emotional and somewhat irrational.

You can't mock people for their choices without being able to defend your own pricing policies. You can't have it both ways because you know what they say about people like that. Remember, your responses started this exchange.

I'll assume no answer means you have none.

JerryM

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #110 on: 7 Nov 2008, 10:53 pm »
Lancelot,

I'm thinking a comparison of the hybrid Ultra vs the solid state Benchmark is akin to comparing apples and oranges. The solid state Insight is priced right in line with the Benchmark.  :thumb:

Have fun,
Jerry

catastrofe

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #111 on: 7 Nov 2008, 11:50 pm »
Darn it, if nobody herein can give me a rational reason to buy expensive AC power cords other than "I like it" then what are the factors affecting your decisions?

I really want to know what electrical characteristics would be really important in designing a better sounding power cord.  Power cord makers, please chime in too if you please.  Educate me a bit if possible.  How can one make an informed buying decision if there is no real information?

One other thought, how about their use for Christmas lights?  Any better results expected there?  :)

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

P.S. I do understand that an especially shielded AC power cord might be important with digital switching amplifiers and preamplifiers as they tend to broadcast the RFI range switching frequencies like a radio station gone berserk.  There every last bit of shielding might be important to not load down associated equipment (from tweeters to phono cartridges and everything in between) with out of band garbage.

I'll preface this post by stating up-front that I don't have a dog in this fight.  I'm ambivalent about whether a captive power cord or an IEC socket is "better".

That leads to my question/observation about "expensive" or after-market power cords. . .

We've probably all had the experience with a tuner or radio that has lousy reception.  We take a small piece of wire and connect it to the antenna jack and voila', we have great reception.  I assume (maybe mistakenly) that the wire does a good job of picking up radio signals. . in other words, RFI.  So if a small piece of small gauge single conductor wire does a good job of picking up RFI, doesn't a longer, 16 or 14 gauge, multi-conductor power cord do the same but with greater magnitude?  If so, how does the equipment to which its attached remain unaffected?

22/24 gauge telephone cable is arranged in twisted pair configuration to eliminate cross-talk and RFI interference.  Most power cords are "straight" conductor.  My guess is that someone took the obvious issue (RFI) and realized that if they twisted the conductors or shielded the cable, they would eliminate RFI and improve the sound quality.  Not to pick on any one manufacturer but look at the Lessloss power cables. . .lots of twisting going on there.

I could be totally wrong and if so, I humbly accept that fact but could it be this simple?   :D


Wayner

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #112 on: 8 Nov 2008, 12:39 am »
A 120 volt power supply cable is a bit different than an antenna wire or telephone cable. The RFI that a power cord can pick up is at noise floor. Your cell phones are only about 10db above the hash of the noise floor of other broadcasts, yet they work very well for the most part. Here is a good line in the sand for those that really don't get electricity. The lower the voltage, the more prone it is to trouble. So, say a turntable with a cartridge that only produces 4 millivolts is very much influenced by other force fields created by EMF of magnitudes greater. that's why it's a great idea to keep your turntable wires away from power cords.

robinje

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #113 on: 8 Nov 2008, 05:33 am »
Do components with digital circuitry (i.e. CD players, DACs) generate EMF/RFI?  I was under this assumption, which is why I bought a shielded Volex cord for my CD player, being uncertain if the generic supplied cord was shielded or not.  I assumed the shielding would "protect" the EMF/RFI from impacting the rest of my system, although I cannot in any way detect an audible difference between the Volex and stock power cords.  What about the Ultra DAC I just bought?  Is the attached power cord shielded?  Is there any reason to be concerned about EMF/RFI from this component, or is this type of potential interference only a concern when switching power supplies are employed (which is not the case with the Ultra DAC)? 

rustneversleeps

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #114 on: 8 Nov 2008, 05:35 am »
Quote
Your cell phones are only about 10db above the hash of the noise floor of other broadcasts

Only about 10db? that's a lot, considering 3db is at half power, but how high is the noise floor that you are talking about? 0db, higher, or lower?

sueata1

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #115 on: 8 Nov 2008, 11:39 am »
I think we need to conduct (move) this meeting over to Stonehedge under a full moon :lol:

Mel

avahifi

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #116 on: 8 Nov 2008, 03:11 pm »
If you want to know about the design details of our products, such our DACs, simply visit our web site.

It is difficult to comment about Benchmark DAC designs because there is not a useful bit of info at their web site about their design, other than a bunch of graphs showing how well they work on test signals (as does every other DAC for that matter).

What are they doing for the necessary analog filters and analog output circuits?  Not a word said there. A great DAC digital section followed by a mundane op amp output and filter section will not yield great performance. We are using an industrial Philips true 16-bit chip set. There has been much written by others confirming its superiority in retrieving all the info at all frequencies all the time. Our patented hybrid tube-mosfet transimpedance amplifier used in all Ultra products audio sections is one reason our equipment is so well received, there is nothing else out there like.  Its expensive to execute, but worth it.

If our web site does not tell you enough and you want to know more details about our designs, simply call me (651-330-9871) and I will tell you.  Most of my clients here know this.  No electronic switchboard  at Audio by Van Alstine

No "silence" from these parts.  Bad assumption there, Lancelot.

Regarding cost, we pay trained U.S. citizens in the USA a living wage to build our equipment right here in Minnesota.  Our chassis, and most of the expensive bits and pieces are made in the U.S.A too.  Go ahead and buy Chinese or whatever if cost is the most important issue to you, but then see what kind of service you get as the years go by.

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

sueata1

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #117 on: 8 Nov 2008, 03:18 pm »
Had the Benchmark,,,,Had the PS Audio Digital Link3,,,,,Had the Cambridge 840C,,,,Now gone,,,the Insight blows em away!!!!
Choose your own Poison :o

Happy Listening,,,
Mel

Zheeeem

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #118 on: 8 Nov 2008, 04:04 pm »
Darn it, if nobody herein can give me a rational reason to buy expensive AC power cords other than "I like it" then what are the factors affecting your decisions?


The other factor is that honkin' big power cords make audiophiles feel like audiophiles.  If we weren't all a bit sallow-skinned and pot-bellied, our chests would puff out and we'd beam with pride when a fellow audiophile came over for some serious listening and said "Gosh, those honkin' big power cords sure sound palpable, in a stygian way." (or whatever the reviewers' term du jour is).  But otherwise, don't ask me, because all my power cords are whatever you installed on my gear.  Personally, I think they are excellent, because they reach all the way to the wall outlet, my main criterion.

Zheeeem

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #119 on: 8 Nov 2008, 04:42 pm »

Since I am a chromatographer, (and can separate and analyze complex mixtures) does this give me any insight into what a certain vodka might taste like? No. Will I tell you that two vodkas taste alike because I cannot measure the difference between them? No. If I measure a difference between two vodkas, will I tell you that you can therefore taste a difference between them? No.


Maybe I am misunderstanding you.  Let's say I have two vodka samples and run a GC-MS with good resolution.  And the two vodka samples have identical peaks.  That is, they contain exactly the same chemicals in the exact same proportions (i.e., you cannot measure the difference).  Let's set aside for a moment that this is doubtless the same vodka from the same batch.  It is not clear to me how these can actually taste different.  Yes, the perception of taste may be different, or the variables affecting taste may be different (e.g., eating a sardine beforehand vs. eating a chocolate).  If you are into perceived benefits, suggest you look at products by Peter Belt (who is at least honest enough to admit that's what he sells) or Machina Dynamica (who is not).

Moving back to wires, I think that it is a reasonable hypothesis that 2 wires manufactuerd by the same company from the same run in the same lengths will "sound" the same.  By "sound" I mean any direct effect of the wire on the sound coming out of the speakers, or any indirect effect the wire may have on active components in the system resulting in an effect on the sound coming out of the speakers.  I am not talking about perceived sound. 

OK?  Identical wires sound identical?  Next, what real material characteristics can change the behaviour of a wire (assuming all external variables are identical).  My short list of main variables are RCL.  There are likely others, such as the much vaunted "skin effect" and crystal structure.  But it is exceedingly difficult to see how these can manifest sufficient change to audibly alter engine performance, except as these variables are manifested as RCL.  Speaker drivers are really best thought of as very simple, inefficient electric engines whose performance is based on EMF.  They don't care about the pain and suffering electrons have passed through in getting to the wires in the driver; all they care about is that the electron moves through the wire and generates an electromagnetic field.  So, there is no reason to believe that there is any characteristic other than RCL with the potential for a change in the sound.  If people feel that there is something else, they should be prepared to demonstrate it; i.e., the burden of proof is on the proponent of a new hypothesis.

So wires with identical RCL should perform identically in an audio system.  Changes in RCL "may" have an audible effect.  (Not power cords, by the way, unless the power supply is poorly designed and/or poorly executed.  An obvious example would be RCL way beyond the bounds of common sense, like a 500 ft 18 guage power cord.)  All of these variables, and their direct effect on signal, can be measured.  Their indirect effect, like high capacitance wires blowing unstable amps is an unknown, but it is probably not unreasonable to assume that minor changes will have negligible effects in well designed well executed equipment.  Note that it is impossible to uniquely assign this effect to a wire, since it is the combination of a wire and specific pieces of equipment.  Note also that such wires seem to be pushing the boundaries of good engineering.

There is little doubt that wires can change the sound of an audio system, though this probably decreases to the extent the componets are properly engineered and manufactured.  The question is whether, within a relatively generous RCL range these changes are audible, and if so, whether the change is "better, "worse" or just plain old "different".  The answers, I think, are "exceedingly unlikely" and "different".