ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac

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Lancelot

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #20 on: 4 Nov 2008, 09:12 pm »
According to the review the dac costs $1599. Given AVA's no nonsense, measurements first ( perhaps only ) policy I'm a little surprised that it would take a selling price of $1500 to produce a high quality product ( especially as aesthetics are obviously not a consideration).

I use a $1000 player ( Arcam) and have read a number of reviews of CD players ( with measurements) that, for the most part measure so well that any improvement ( in the measurements) is unlikely to be heard. Also Dac's like the Benchmark or Lavrey ( about $1000) have exemplary measurements.

So power cord aside, how do  measurement first proponents justify the cost of the AVA dac- to me, this is a more important consideration.

I'm not trying to be confrontational but rather than simply jumping on others ( although the review was over the top) you have to be prepared to also justify your own dogmas.

TjMV3

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #21 on: 4 Nov 2008, 09:44 pm »
According to the review the dac costs $1599. Given AVA's no nonsense, measurements first ( perhaps only ) policy I'm a little surprised that it would take a selling price of $1500 to produce a high quality product ( especially as aesthetics are obviously not a consideration).

I use a $1000 player ( Arcam) and have read a number of reviews of CD players ( with measurements) that, for the most part measure so well that any improvement ( in the measurements) is unlikely to be heard. Also Dac's like the Benchmark or Lavrey ( about $1000) have exemplary measurements.

So power cord aside, how do  measurement first proponents justify the cost of the AVA dac- to me, this is a more important consideration.

I'm not trying to be confrontational but rather than simply jumping on others ( although the review was over the top) you have to be prepared to also justify your own dogmas.

Interestingly,  that's a question the reviewer should have thought of,  to ask Frank.

Rather than power chord crap.


Wayner

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #22 on: 4 Nov 2008, 09:47 pm »
When you run a smaller business, you lose buying power. Manufacturing materials are not purchased in the tens of thousands lots, but rather in the 10's of parts. Price points are always set by quantities purchased. Frank has to balance inventory, purchase quantity and things like that to keep costs low, yet still buy at effective quantities to realize any kind of price break. As an example, Digikey will give you one price if you buy 1 thru 9 pieces, another price if you buy 10 thru 99 pieces and yet another price to buy 100 thru 1000 pieces. All of these things have to be put into balance and brought into the cost of a unit.

That is why there are only 2 metal cabinet sizes, one for amplifiers and one for pre-amplifiers, DACs and options like the stand alone phono preamp. All of the necessary holes and features are designed into the sheetmetal so that any product ordered can be built from one of the cabinets. With a few faceplates, the entire range is covered. This saves inventory on Franks part and turns into savings on the customers part, because he can increase his order points.

Other, larger companies build many more times the number of units, but they also lose the close attention that AVA gives to each and every product that is made. They are not off of an assembly  line, but rather hand-built, one at a time. This also gives Frank the ability to make a design change jolly on the spot, to make improvements or advances. Other larger companies have an entire chain of command to make the dinosaurs move in another direction.

Wayner  :D

stereocilia

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #23 on: 4 Nov 2008, 10:24 pm »

That's not the point. 

...


Fair enough; I strayed from the issue.  I do think the reviewer runs afoul by accusing Frank Van Alstine of being too dogmatic.  That's how it came across to me, anyway.  However, I would not go so far as to say that the review is a despicable abomination, or anything like that.

Aside from the power cables, one thing I also find interesting is that the reviewer says that changing the transport will result in an an obvious and meaningful sonic difference.  Some say there is no difference whatsoever, and I can't believe it's because they aren't listening.  I don't see how there can be any middle ground.  Am I wrong in saying that one of these must be either lying or delusional?

AKSA

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #24 on: 4 Nov 2008, 10:53 pm »
I have met Frank, loved his style, and heard his exceptionally good DAC.  (Remember me Frank, I still want one!!)

I believe the reviewer is tossing a bit more than the caber......

Hugh

avahifi

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #25 on: 4 Nov 2008, 11:05 pm »
Hugh, thanks much, who could ever forget you after meeting you.  :)

You build really nice stuff.

Regarding boutique power cords, we can make ours as long or short as you want, just as long as you don't need it sprinkled with gold glitter powder.

Regards,

Frank

P.S.  Got a return coming in soon under our satisfaction guarantee, client says it sounds "too clear", darn need to make a muddy sounding model for those users.  Any ideas as to how to do this?

Wayner

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #26 on: 4 Nov 2008, 11:16 pm »
How about an IEC socket with #4 awg wire! Make sure the plug costs at least $300 (so have the metal contacts gold plated), and then a crap load of filter capacitors up front too. You also don't have enough components mounted on your boards, so how about some more resistors, capacitors and diodes? I see other amplifier designs with 3 to 4 times as much stuff crambed onto their boards and yours look so sparse. You must be cheating us of components we are just not really getting. I don't get it!

 aa

jhm731

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #27 on: 4 Nov 2008, 11:56 pm »
When you run a smaller business, you lose buying power. Manufacturing materials are not purchased in the tens of thousands lots, but rather in the 10's of parts. Price points are always set by quantities purchased. Frank has to balance inventory, purchase quantity and things like that to keep costs low, yet still buy at effective quantities to realize any kind of price break. As an example, Digikey will give you one price if you buy 1 thru 9 pieces, another price if you buy 10 thru 99 pieces and yet another price to buy 100 thru 1000 pieces. All of these things have to be put into balance and brought into the cost of a unit.

That is why there are only 2 metal cabinet sizes, one for amplifiers and one for pre-amplifiers, DACs and options like the stand alone phono preamp. All of the necessary holes and features are designed into the sheetmetal so that any product ordered can be built from one of the cabinets. With a few faceplates, the entire range is covered. This saves inventory on Franks part and turns into savings on the customers part, because he can increase his order points.

Other, larger companies build many more times the number of units, but they also lose the close attention that AVA gives to each and every product that is made. They are not off of an assembly  line, but rather hand-built, one at a time. This also gives Frank the ability to make a design change jolly on the spot, to make improvements or advances. Other larger companies have an entire chain of command to make the dinosaurs move in another direction.

Wayner  :D

If people want to use their own power cords, why not offer IEC as an option?

Does Frank build every unit himself?

geezer

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #28 on: 5 Nov 2008, 02:02 am »


[/quote]

If people want to use their own power cords, why not offer IEC as an option?

Does Frank build every unit himself?
[/quote]

No, but he does build one occasionally. He built my preamp.

gjs_cds

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #29 on: 5 Nov 2008, 03:43 am »
...as reviews don't happen every day and this is clearly a waste of his time sending the product to this gentleman.

Your use of the term is most gracious.  I wouldn't have given him that. 

DavidS

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #30 on: 5 Nov 2008, 04:05 am »
where are all the people who cry about all reviews being overly positive.  Thought this review got off track a bit focusing on Frank's strong opinions and design values vs. gear but actually thought that overall it was positive about AVA and somewhat interesting to read.  Tough business reviewing - people slam you if you like a product, slam you if you don't like it, and slam you if you come at a subject from a different or fresh direction.  I enjoy reading professional reviews and don't want them all to be raves and get bored with the standard review schtick and rhetoric.  My two cents.

Lancelot

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  • Posts: 86
Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #31 on: 5 Nov 2008, 04:35 am »
 I'm rather surprised that Frank is making fun of a client returning something that didn't meet their sonic expectations.

 Kind of tarnishes the he is * a really nice guy etc.* image that the fan club here seems to promote.

 You can strongly believe in something without denigrating those who choose an alternate path.  It's called being civilized.

martyo

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #32 on: 5 Nov 2008, 10:41 am »
Quote
I'm rather surprised that Frank is making fun of a client returning something that didn't meet their sonic expectations.

 Kind of tarnishes the he is * a really nice guy etc.* image that the fan club here seems to promote.

 You can strongly believe in something without denigrating those who choose an alternate path.  It's called being civilized.


Oh, never mind  :roll:

TjMV3

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #33 on: 5 Nov 2008, 05:10 pm »
When you run a smaller business, you lose buying power. Manufacturing materials are not purchased in the tens of thousands lots, but rather in the 10's of parts. Price points are always set by quantities purchased. Frank has to balance inventory, purchase quantity and things like that to keep costs low, yet still buy at effective quantities to realize any kind of price break. As an example, Digikey will give you one price if you buy 1 thru 9 pieces, another price if you buy 10 thru 99 pieces and yet another price to buy 100 thru 1000 pieces. All of these things have to be put into balance and brought into the cost of a unit.

That is why there are only 2 metal cabinet sizes, one for amplifiers and one for pre-amplifiers, DACs and options like the stand alone phono preamp. All of the necessary holes and features are designed into the sheetmetal so that any product ordered can be built from one of the cabinets. With a few faceplates, the entire range is covered. This saves inventory on Franks part and turns into savings on the customers part, because he can increase his order points.

Other, larger companies build many more times the number of units, but they also lose the close attention that AVA gives to each and every product that is made. They are not off of an assembly  line, but rather hand-built, one at a time. This also gives Frank the ability to make a design change jolly on the spot, to make improvements or advances. Other larger companies have an entire chain of command to make the dinosaurs move in another direction.

Wayner  :D

Makes a lot of sense,  Wayner.

Thank you for taking the time to write that out.

TONEPUB

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #34 on: 5 Nov 2008, 06:01 pm »
where are all the people who cry about all reviews being overly positive.  Thought this review got off track a bit focusing on Frank's strong opinions and design values vs. gear but actually thought that overall it was positive about AVA and somewhat interesting to read.  Tough business reviewing - people slam you if you like a product, slam you if you don't like it, and slam you if you come at a subject from a different or fresh direction.  I enjoy reading professional reviews and don't want them all to be raves and get bored with the standard review schtick and rhetoric.  My two cents.

I think you hit the nail squarely on the head....



gjs_cds

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #35 on: 5 Nov 2008, 07:03 pm »
where are all the people who cry about all reviews being overly positive.  Thought this review got off track a bit focusing on Frank's strong opinions and design values vs. gear but actually thought that overall it was positive about AVA and somewhat interesting to read.  Tough business reviewing - people slam you if you like a product, slam you if you don't like it, and slam you if you come at a subject from a different or fresh direction.  I enjoy reading professional reviews and don't want them all to be raves and get bored with the standard review schtick and rhetoric.  My two cents.

I think you hit the nail squarely on the head....

Ok--hold on here a second.  Let's just take the people (i.e., the author & Frank) out of this for a second.  This is just an anonymous review about an anonymously produced widget.  Reviews are inherently subjective, and thus subject to opinion...True. 

But, should one's opinion (which is not founded in science or reality, but rather one's dogma) be a deciding factor on how the widget is assessed?  I believe that widgets ought not be orange, thus this (orange) widget has limited performance.  If this occurs, it is less a review of the product, and more an op-ed stance on the reviewer's personal values.  This is what I resent.  A review ought be bias free (or as bias-free as possible).  The injection of personal dogma in a review undermines the credibility and validity of said review. 

So let's apply the above to this particular review.  The author bemoans the lack of upsampling.  A year ago, I might have agreed with him--because I shared the same (scientifically unfounded) prejudice.  Then, I read a peer-reviewed scientific article that was very clear--sampling rates above redbook is imperceptible at all but the most unreasonable volumes.  So in this case, the reviewer's ignorant and unfounded bias about upsampling reduces his validity to be a competent reviewer.  It lacked a feature that offers (in reality) little value, thus it is a product w/ limited performance?  I don't think so.

And please--let's not even get started on the whole 'magic power cable' thing.  Such buffoonery is self-evident.

nathanm

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #36 on: 5 Nov 2008, 07:31 pm »
Rather than power chord crap.
Hey now, power chords gave us Rock 'N Roll!

ricmon

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #37 on: 5 Nov 2008, 07:48 pm »
Hey now, power chords gave us Rock 'N Roll![/quote]

that's funny  :lol: :lol: :thumb:

TjMV3

Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #38 on: 5 Nov 2008, 07:58 pm »
Rather than power chord crap.
Hey now, power chords gave us Rock 'N Roll!

That's the kind of power chord talk I enjoy :thumb:

satfrat

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Re: ridiculous dagogo 'review' of the van alstine dac
« Reply #39 on: 5 Nov 2008, 08:50 pm »
where are all the people who cry about all reviews being overly positive.  Thought this review got off track a bit focusing on Frank's strong opinions and design values vs. gear but actually thought that overall it was positive about AVA and somewhat interesting to read.  Tough business reviewing - people slam you if you like a product, slam you if you don't like it, and slam you if you come at a subject from a different or fresh direction.  I enjoy reading professional reviews and don't want them all to be raves and get bored with the standard review schtick and rhetoric.  My two cents.

Just going thru this thread and I was already to post basically what you already did :thumb:,,, even tho I knew I'd get flack for doing so. :lol: I think this reviewer has the same outlook as many audiophiles concerning IEC's and power cords. I can understand Frank's core group here getting into an uproar about it but I thought other than that issue, the guy did a good job and I really didn't look at things in a negative way at all. Just a difference of opinions on a few things,,, and untypical of your normal everyday molasses saturated review. Nothing to get all worked up about,,,,, my 2 cents. :D

Cheers,
Robin