How do you find a tube preamp and tube amp if your goal is absolute neutrality?

schw06 · « **on:** 16 Oct 2008, 11:24 pm »

I've enjoyed owning tubes in the past but have generally found they seem to have more of a "flavor" to me than SS gear. If aiming for neutrality, anyone have thoughts???

Niteshade · « **Reply #1 on:** 16 Oct 2008, 11:28 pm »

Neutrality is my favorite way to go as well. Actually, neutrality without being clinical or dull. Do you have a tube amp/preamp now?

schw06 · « **Reply #2 on:** 17 Oct 2008, 02:07 am »

No! As many as I've owned, they all have a flavor that has me eliminate part of my music collection that doesn't sound "right" with tubes. I've moved to SS because I've been able to enjoy more of my diverse music collection. Again, I love tubes but haven't been able to find a tube preamp/mp combination that sounds neutral and accurate. Dave

AudioSoul · « **Reply #3 on:** 17 Oct 2008, 03:29 am »

What tube preamps and amps have you owned in the past to give us a better picture of where you came from.
Thanks, David

doug s. · « **Reply #4 on:** 17 Oct 2008, 03:50 am »

if you want something presently in production that has tubes & is neutral try modwright. if you are willing to shop for used no longer made, (but soon to be making a comeback, i understand), look for a used melos preamp. after hearing the sound of a neutral tube preamp, there's no way i could ever go back to solid state. tube preamps that didn't do it for me in my system, cuz they weren't neutral, included the rogue magnum 99 & the cary slp98.

ymmv,

doug s.

rpf · « **Reply #5 on:** 17 Oct 2008, 03:54 am »

Agree re: Modwright.

JimJ · « **Reply #6 on:** 17 Oct 2008, 05:49 am »

Quote from: schw06 on 16 Oct 2008, 11:24 pm

I've enjoyed owning tubes in the past but have generally found they seem to have more of a "flavor" to me than SS gear. If aiming for neutrality, anyone have thoughts???

Do you have sources that have enough line level voltage for you to run a passive "pre", either stepped attenuators or something transformer-based?

martyo · « **Reply #7 on:** 17 Oct 2008, 08:24 am »

You could check out AVA's Hybrids or a hybrid amp along with the T8 tube preamp, what I have. There is nothing clinical or dull........

Niteshade · « **Reply #8 on:** 17 Oct 2008, 10:14 am »

While shopping around, get the negative feedback figure for the amplifier. The higher it is, the more 'dead' or clinical it will sound. Sometimes people use large quantities of NFB because it gets rid of extraneous noise and makes the system test better. Unfortunately, it doesn't make the amp sound better.

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #9 on:** 17 Oct 2008, 10:21 am »

Let me let a cat out of the bag: the most neutral tube preamp I have ever owned/tried is the Musica Bella Purity Preamp by Response Audio. Blows the MW out of the water. Bill won't like me saying that so as not to ruffle feathers, but it is true. I dare to say it is the most SS sounding pre I have ever used but am afraid tube lovers would be dissuaded. I am tube rolling in my prototype and finding the results of the effort satisfying. My production unit is on order as we speak.

When Yooper and I ran my MW 36.5 against the Dodd battery unit, the Dodd was superior in detail and soundstage to the MW in my system. I was ready to go with a Dodd at that point and then Bill offered prototype preamps so I jumped to try one. I am very glad I did.

So in my own experience this Purity is the most refined followed by the Dodd. All good company.

Tube amps, well, I'll leave that for others to pontificate. I have had mixed results with tube amps.

Brown · « **Reply #10 on:** 17 Oct 2008, 02:14 pm »

To date the most neutral preamp we have encountered is the C.A.T. Ultimate. The previous CATs were netral but a tad thin. The Ultimate has both. Audio Research amps will do the trick as well as Lamm. All you need is the scratch.

mcullinan · « **Reply #11 on:** 17 Oct 2008, 02:16 pm »

No no no the most neutral is obviously the Audible Illusions Mod 3a.
Neutral is good. Though I am on the pinch, ever so small, on the warm juicy side.
Mike

schw06 · « **Reply #12 on:** 17 Oct 2008, 02:22 pm »

Thanks for all the responses. How about tube amps with neutrality? Finally, how about combinations of tube preamp +tube amp that remain neutral? For all the tube lovers out there with tube preamps and tube amps-Don't you feel like you're listening through "rose colored glasses". I'm not trying to anger tube lovers and have owned tube gear in the past. if I could find a tube setup that allowed me the organic rightness and bloom of tubes but remained neutral, I'd be willing to deal with the hassles of tubes.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #13 on:** 17 Oct 2008, 02:42 pm »

But isn't that organic rightness and bloom of tubes the coloration you're talking about?

Niteshade · « **Reply #14 on:** 17 Oct 2008, 02:43 pm »

There is no such thing as a blanket statement for tube amplifiers. No two designs/brands sound exactly alike. That goes for SS amps as well. Some (the big word here is __some__) tube amplifiers have an uncanny ability to be natural and neutral sounding without being clinical and dead. Unlike solid state amps, tube amplifiers are tunable to your system needs by altering such things as negative feedback, tube loading, biasing and even the kind of tubes you want to use. Do not think of your system as just the amplifier. It all works together as a single unit and that is why you want flexiable equipment. The same 'neutral' amp will be neutral in one setting and not in another.

Quote from: schw06 on 17 Oct 2008, 02:22 pm

Thanks for all the responses. How about tube amps with neutrality? Finally, how about combinations of tube preamp +tube amp that remain neutral? For all the tube lovers out there with tube preamps and tube amps-Don't you feel like you're listening through "rose colored glasses". I'm not trying to anger tube lovers and have owned tube gear in the past. if I could find a tube setup that allowed me the organic rightness and bloom of tubes but remained neutral, I'd be willing to deal with the hassles of tubes.

schw06 · « **Reply #15 on:** 17 Oct 2008, 03:07 pm »

Miklorsmith,
Excellent point! Having owned the Modwright preamp in the past I enjoyed what that preamp did for my system but when I combined it with tube amps I kept fiddling with tube changes to make the system have less of a distinct sound. I found I would not listen to a large chunk of my audio collection because it didn't sound "right". Maybe that was synergy or reality with a tube preamp and tube amp. That's why I'm asking the question. I'm wondering if anyone has found the combination of tube pre and amp to not impart much of a flavor on the music? If so, what combination of tube equipment have they found that accomplishes this?

doug s. · « **Reply #16 on:** 17 Oct 2008, 03:21 pm »

Quote from: schw06 on 17 Oct 2008, 03:07 pm

Miklorsmith,
Excellent point! Having owned the Modwright preamp in the past I enjoyed what that preamp did for my system but when I combined it with tube amps I kept fiddling with tube changes to make the system have less of a distinct sound. I found I would not listen to a large chunk of my audio collection because it didn't sound "right". Maybe that was synergy or reality with a tube preamp and tube amp. That's why I'm asking the question. I'm wondering if anyone has found the combination of tube pre and amp to not impart much of a flavor on the music? If so, what combination of tube equipment have they found that accomplishes this?

schw06,

i have found that my modded melos ma333r preamp works well w/many different amps, both tube & s/s. there's no preamp/amp synergy issues; it's the amp/speaker synergy issues that i need to consider. the melos preamp is a constant in my system. (maybe i have on amp-preamp issues because i actively bi-amp? for years, my preamp fed a marchand x-over, now it feeds a deqx dsp x-over.)

one tube amp i have and love seems to be a jack of all trades, & will work with a plethora of speakers - the mesa baron. i am not using it presently, because i am using 100db-efficient horns, & while it would do the yob, it seems a bit of overkill for that. so i am presently enjoying a 5wpc single-ended pentode modded almarro a205a mkll. anyway, back to the mesa, it can be configured to run full triode at 55wpc, full pentode at 150wpc, or in between, at 85wpc or 120wpc. its negative feedback can be set at either 0db, -2db, -4db, -8db. it's a killer amp, & i have no intention of parting w/it any time soon, even tho it's not getting use presently...

doug s

miklorsmith · « **Reply #17 on:** 17 Oct 2008, 03:36 pm »

Your question is difficult. First, "absolute neutrality" means different things to different people. The .00000 distortion sound is probably easiest to quantify as such. If that's the sound you want you might be able to get close with a tubed preamp but the amp will be tougher. If that's the sound you want, I would posit tubes are probably not for you.

Another plus for the preamp side is it doesn't have to drive your speakers, only the amp. It has a much easier job than the amp. If your speaks are easy to drive, tube amps get easier but they're undoubtedly pickier about partners than tubed preamps are.

There is a definite relationship between 2nd order distortion and bloom. Some would say they are the same thing. There is another aspect I've only heard with SET amps, a 3 dimensional layering with physical boundaries that I don't think can be described simply as distortion. Further, a liquid SET flow can be Another Thing Completely.

How do these latter elements fit into the phrase "absolute neutrality"? I'd argue they are tremendously beneficial but impossible to measure against any sense of neutral. The 45 amp I owned got trashed in JA's measurement section but oh baby did it sound glorious.

I think the phrasing ultimately boils down to "my ideal sound", completely personal to each listener and we all hear differently.

Bill Baker · « **Reply #18 on:** 17 Oct 2008, 03:56 pm »

As others have mentioned throughout this thread, much of what you experience has to do with the system as a whole rather than a single component. There are many different designs out there and yes a tube preamp can be voiced anywhere from overly lush to extremely sterile.

Not to turn this post into an add but our Purity was designed to have the 'speed and articulation' of a solid state unit but without being sterile or dry. We were not looking for a solid state sound. If we were, we would not have designed a tube unit. We wanted to retain some of that tube nature.

It is no different with tube amplifiers. They too can be designed and voiced 100 ways to Sunday. I have always liked the warmer side of neutral presentation but over the past year or so I have come to the realization that you can have the best of both worlds...i.e; neutral yet musical.

There are tradeoffs in tube amp design like anything else. If you want a tube amp that will last for 50 years without replacing a single tube, you have to build a circuit that is "kind" to the tube. The downfall is that these designs are usually very warm sounding. A perfect test can be done by anyone who has a tube amp with manual bias. Bias the tubes at the lower end of the spectrum and you have a lusher sound, crank it to it's upper limits and you have a harder sound. The downfall to this is the tubes will not last as long. The harder you run a tube, the "harder" the sound. This is obviously not the case with every tube product (so no attacks please).

Tube rolling can change the sound slightly but to get the sound you want, look for a product that is design and voiced to provide what you're looking for. If you do not like the overall nature of a given tube product, changing tubes is not going to change it into something it was never meant to be. Tube rolling, just like cabling is good for "fine tuning". A good design should give you enjoyment and provide the traits you are looking for regardless of what tube is used. Different tubes are not band-aids, they are a subjective and personal tweak.

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #19 on:** 17 Oct 2008, 04:31 pm »

I always cringe just a bit when I hear people talk of "neutrality" and "color" in regard to audio equipment. I have to wonder what their references are? If you're wanting what comes out of the speakers to be exactly what went into the mic wouldn't you have had to have been at the recording session? Right in front of the musician? Before the Mic? In that case, very few people on this planet have a true reference to what is neutral and non-colored. On the other hand, what if the tube equipment is more true to the original sound and is merely revealing a bad recording? And the SS equipment is somehow masking the faults of the recording. Would you rather have a more true-to-the-original sound or a sound you like? I, for one, don't care if what I hear is exactly what was recorded. I just want to like what I hear. If you like the sound of SS that is what's most important. Why try to talk yourself into tubed gear? The tubiness of tubes is the icing on the cake for me and I'd rather live with and enjoy the sound of them than live with, but not enjoy, the sound of SS (disclaimer - blanket statement about the sound of SS. I do own an SS amp and enjoy it. Please don't respond to this post about exceptions to this blanket statement. I already know exceptions exist. Over and out).