[AliG]

I need to remind people of few points:

(1) Neutrality cannot be achieved until you have means of determine objectively what 'neutrality' means. How do people measure 'neutrality'?  Does measurement agrees with hearing? Can you be sure that your hearing is 'neutral' to begin with?

(2) People seems to have the impression that solid state == neutrality. Granted, most solid state gears are measured to have a flatter frequency response. But what's the result of inserting such solid state gears into a system where your CD player and your speakers and your cables do NOT have 'neutral' response? Your system is still going to sound 'unneutral'.

So, to conclude, if your goal is to achieve 'neutral' response, then what you need to do is to find out how 'unneutral' you system is currently sounding, and then find the right piece of equipments (be it tube or SS) to compensate for that 'unneutralness'.

[mfsoa]

But what if neutrality doesn't sound as good?
When I listen to live musicians, I don't hear neutrality - I hear life, emotion, instruments bending air. (I guess it depends on what neutral means to us - I wouldn't call live music  neutral yet that's the most neutral thing there is  )

At a rave a few months ago, we did something interesting. A highly rated $4K CD player with built-in volume control (misspelled but an Audio Aero Capitole or something) was evaluated vs. a $8K dac (Dodson), both through my VAC preamp. After the comparo, the Aero was listened to straight to the amp, and then the VAC was placed back in line.

The folks I talked to felt that the sound was improved with the addition of the preamp, which, I think by definition would be less neutral than without.

This makes me fundamentally reconsider the role of equipment - Is it to be true to something that you can never know if your equipment is being true to anyway (AliG, great observations, I agree!) or to give you enjoyment in the reproduction of the emotion of music in your home?

I'll take the blame as another VAC fan behind Arthurs, but that gear adds something, I have no idea what, that just makes you forget all the audiophile jargon. Is my system neutral? Don't care. Great extension of the frequency extremes? Don't care. Silent with my ear to the tweeter? Don't care. (BTW, the answers are probably, yes and no, respectively)

But if one's goal is different from mine and you acheive it in different ways, that's way cool too, I have no problem with that. That's why we talk about this stuff.

-Mike

[mcullinan]

I have VAC envy. Thats not gay is it?

Mike

I would say neutral is the absence of coloring of sound. Anything not neutral would add a similiar essence (color, taste, flavor) to the soundband on everything you play.

[DaveC113]

I would say neutral is the absence of coloring of sound. Anything not neutral would add a similiar essence to the soundband on everything you play.

Hey,I was just about to type that... really 

I agree, if the distortion is noticeable enough to add the same coloration to everything you play, its bad.

However, I have listened to some really high end systems that absolutely excel at reproducing some types of music with no obvious coloration, but other things sound colored. An example was the Avante Gardes at RMAF. They had some chamber music or something  playing when I walked in and it sounded great... but they also completely massacred Victor Wooten's basslines on my test cd.

[Imperial]

The same 'neutral' amp will be neutral in one setting and not in another.

A vital point indeed, just move that speaker out of position and you're not neutral anymore.

Getting "TRUE" neutrality with a tubeamp+speaker combo also puts a really VAST demand on the user!!
Will he be able to know how to coax neutrality out of the combo? That is also a part of the game!
And part of the fun!

In my life, on this earth I have ever only heard TRUE neutrality in real music. The game, the hunt is on, as I see it for the same
in a system.. but we may each of us find our own version of it! Or at least find that neutral zone where it all just happens!
The music just speaks!

I'm gonna Quote Per Abrahamsen here (that is Electrocompaniets first owner) ...
"Music is not neutral, or it simply won't leave you in that state! You go out seeking it? I hope you find music! And when you do, you won't find it in neutrality" - This is a transliteration at best, but it's got the core down I believe of what he said.

You see, a really neutral system, and one that really plays JUST what was recorded, or gives it life again if you will.
If you find it, let me know will ya, I've not seen one system do both, at once.

I know, this is rather heavy to say, but I just don't believe in neutrality! I just don't!

Imperial

[*Scotty*]

mfsoa,I would call live music neutral. In as much as a performance can be captured in a recording,when played back it should be reproduced without a lot of editorial content.
People listen to music with missing information and don't know it's gone, colorations on the other hand are harder for some people live with. I think some of the time tube gear preserves the dynamic life present in the original performance better than a lot of solid state gear. This may be what the poster is looking for and why he wants to stick with tubes.
As far as your experiences at the rave are concerned I would attribute what you heard less to the addition of your VAC preamp and it's tubes or lack of neutrality and more to the fact that built in volume control or not the $4K CD player did not drive the power amp load as well as your preamp did. If CD player can't deal with the load imposed by directly driving the power amp the dynamics and life of the music will be seen to be lacking.
Scotty

[Ericus Rex]

Isn't neutrality really just one person's coloration preferences?  Who knows what neutral is?

[Jon L]

I've enjoyed owning tubes in the past but have generally found they seem to have more of a "flavor" to me than SS gear. If aiming for neutrality, anyone have thoughts???

Actually, the tube amps I've been favoring all sound far more "neutral," i.e. more like live music, than the SS amps I've tried. 

Live music has tons of "flavor" and "color," which is exactly what most SS can't deliver IMO...

[jon_010101]

If you listen to something like a Citation I and II combo, or a Williamson amp, or a restored Marantz or  McIntosh system, or some of the better Audio Research designs, it will be much closer to neutral (and also to solid-state) than a lot of other tube amps.  Personally, I prefer "neutral" tube amps (those that measure well rather than just "sounding" good) over neutral solid state amps, and over tubey tube amps - I think its actually easier to achieve truly good performance in the sub-1W range with tubes.  The best tube amps have no problem surpassing solid state performance in this range - noise and gain is much better controlled, where solid state amps often go for power and efficiency, with reduced small-signal performance.  Its possible to design a solid state amp like a tube amp, but I don't see many companies taking that approach.  Maybe something along the lines of the fancy class A Accuphase amps?  I dunno 

A really clean 20-30W amplifier with fantastic load tolerance and good performance at the bottom of the dynamic range is much more important to me than 200-300W with good performance at the top of the dynamic range.  I think this is more easily achieved with a tube design.  Take a look at the low-power THD specs on Roger's RM200 on Stereophile - only the best SS amps can compete 

[DSK]

I've enjoyed owning tubes in the past but have generally found they seem to have more of a "flavor" to me than SS gear. If aiming for neutrality, anyone have thoughts???

Actually, the tube amps I've been favoring all sound far more "neutral," i.e. more like live music, than the SS amps I've tried. 

Live music has tons of "flavor" and "color," which is exactly what most SS can't deliver IMO...

Exactly Jon. If "live" music is the goal then our playback equipment must, by definition, strive to be "neutral" .... ie. be unbiased and not actively intrude by introducing colourations, either by addition or omission. If we do not use the "live performance" as the definition of neutrality then we aren't sharing a common definition or benchmark and are just wasting our time trying to discuss it and make comparisons.

Unfortunately, over time people have come to use the term "neutral" to discuss components that bleach out some of the life and colour of the live performance and it has thus come to be used in a negative sense and to pollute the true meaning.    As a result, we also frequently read generalisations along the lines of "tubes = coloured and not neutral, SS = not coloured and neutral".

Of course some tube gear is coloured and some isn't. The same goes for SS. The great pity is that any gear (usually tube) that reproduces more of the beautiful colour, life, warmth, body and emotion of a live performance than a sterile budget SS component, now gets labelled as "coloured" and "euphonic". In fact, it is (using the live performance as the definition of neutrality) more neutral. For this reason, I sometimes use "true to life" in preference to "neutral". This is why such gear, whether tube or SS, is often referred to as being more emotive and engaging and relaxing. It is closer to the live performance and sets off less of those red flags (conscious and subconscious reactions to aspects of the playback that our brain flags as being not completely natural as per a live performance). That is to say that there are fewer deviations from the live performance, fewer red flags to interrupt the suspension of disbelief, the brain is more relaxed and able to enjoy the performance rather than any artificial colourations and the gear is therefore more .... (drumroll )....neutral.

[doug s.]

for the record - when i say "neutral", what i mean is "sounds like real music".  as others have stated here, i do not care whether or not a piece of gear may or may not be technically more "accurate".  it has to sound musical.  while i do not know for sure, i suspect that, when it comes to electronic audio gear, more technically accurate may be less musically neutral...  if that's why i prefer tubes, which don't always measure as well as s/s gear, i don't care.  i don't want to hear wire, winyl, cutting machines, digital electronics, transistors, resistors, capacitors, transducers, tubes, etc - i want to hear MUSIC!!!   

doug s.

[Bill Baker]

while i do not know for sure, i suspect that, when it comes to electronic audio gear, more technically accurate may be less musically neutral.

 I agree Doug. There is some gear out there, both tube and SS, that can come across as sterile. Depending of course on the associated equipment within the rest of the system. Absolute neutrality does not (cannot) exist as there are far too many variables starting with the recording itself.

 I think one of the biggest problems with audiophile terms is that everyone has a different perception of what they mean.

[DARTH AUDIO]

I'm with Bill, the terms mean different things to each of us?? I look for equipment (Tube and/or SS) that can play all the different music I listen to with the same enjoyment. I need equipment that can convey the energy of the music that is playing at the time. I listen to a wide variety of music like jazz trio(ECM Music) to progressive metal(Porcupine Tree) with Norah Jones, Patricia Barber thrown in the middle. For me, my system plays all music very well. But beyond all of that, the most important issue for me is a system that I can listen to for hours without "listener Fatigue"!! Remember, it's about the enjoyment of the music. I stopped long ago listening to my stereo and started listening to the music.

Good Luck on your search. This hobby can drive you crazy if you let it.

Gary

[Daygloworange]

Question:  How do you find a tube preamp and tube amp if your goal is absolute neutrality?

Ideally you would want to have a properly treated listening room to play your audio in, in order to be able to properly assess the playback. Evaluating gear in a less than optimal room will make differences harder to hear.

The next thing would be to have speakers that have a flat a response as possible, as full range as possible, and be as benign a load to an amplifier as possible. Personally, IME, I would want a speaker with as low a crossover point between the tweeter and midrange as possible, and where the midrange does not have to go and play too low either. This makes the midrange performance of the speaker much cleaner.

I'll omit discussions of speaker cables and IC's and so forth, as that can be a topic onto itself.

And finally, you need to have a great reference recording. For that, you would probably be best with a minimalistic recorded classical orchestra piece, or acoustic jazz ensemble. Also, something with well recorded vocals, as humans are most familiar with the sound of the human voice.

When I talk of neutral, I think of FR response and timbre. When I talk of transparency, it means faithfullness to the original event, I talk of neutral FR, and leading edge transient response, as the first few milliseconds of any leading edge are critical to the quality of transparency of any musical "event", be it the crack of stick on a snare drum or the attack of the bow on a stringed instrument etc..

Dynamics are critical as well.

Also, I think a mix of critical listening, and more relaxed listening between components over a period of time is probably a good idea. I usually focus on mid's only, then high's and lows later. So it takes me a bit of back and forth. Trying to assess it all at the same time is too difficult for me. Taking notes helps as well.

Cheers

[WerTicus]

I think you should audition a nu force amp.  Transparent is how I would describe them.

[*Scotty*]

My biggest problem is with the source material,silver disc or hard drive,not all of it is well recorded or very "musical" sounding. If I lower my expectations for system resolution or neutrality,dumb the system down as it were, to make everything I want to play sound "musical" I will invariably miss the out on what very good recordings could sound like.
I would rather hear all of the information on the recording and when the recording is extraordinarily well done I will reap the benefits. Mind you,I have no problem with making the conscious decision
to not reproduce all of the information contained in a recording,it's a valid approach to achieving self satisfaction,but it should be recognized for what it is, a compromise and a move away from High Fidelity reproduction of the source material.
Scotty

[doug s.]

of course i'm w/bill, as he's w/me!   

i am also w/daygloworange re: speakers.  my present speakers have subs crossed to mains at 80hz; the 2-way mains have only one x-over, at 300hz.  their 15" fostex woofers in a modded klipsch lascala bass-bin play from 80hz to 300hz.  above that, a full-range fostex fe206e in an oris 150 horn does everything else.  the system is flat from <20hz to 22khz, courtesy of a deqx dsp x-over.  it excels (imo) in everything daygloworange talks about - it's full-range, has flat frequency response, excellent timbre, transparency, faithfulness to the original event, excellent leading edge transient response...   

the speaker i used prior - piega p5 ltd mkll's - also excel in these traits.  they were also crossed to subs at 80hz; their woofers cross to a coax ribbon at 550hz.  the x-over in the coax mid/tweet ribbon is at 3.5khz...  the speakers are rated 30hz-50khz +/-2db...

i have a pair of gemme audio tanto's that i have yet to try; the tanto's woofer runs full-range to 5khz, w/natural frequency roll-off - no x-over whatsoever.  the tweet has only a single cap, hi-passed at 6db/octave at 6khz...  frequency response is rated at 38hz-30khz anechoic, +/- 3db.

i have used and enjoyed more typically designed speakers - thiel 3.5's, proac tablette 8 reference signatures, meret re's, dillon acoustics ego's (f/s - make me an offer!   ), for example.  while all these speakers are still great, imo, my preferences now lean towards speakers that run full range in the important mid-band...  but, i still need full extension, from sub-bass to >20khz...

ymmv,

doug s.

[doug s.]

My biggest problem is with the source material,silver disc or hard drive,not all of it is well recorded or very "musical" sounding. If I lower my expectations for system resolution or neutrality,dumb the system down as it were, to make everything I want to play sound "musical" I will invariably miss the out on what very good recordings could sound like.
I would rather hear all of the information on the recording and when the recording is extraordinarily well done I will reap the benefits. Mind you,I have no problem with making the conscious decision
to not reproduce all of the information contained in a recording,it's a valid approach to achieving self satisfaction,but it should be recognized for what it is, a compromise and a move away from High Fidelity reproduction of the source material.
Scotty

i'm w/you scotty - i want as much resolution as possible.  but, if you put together a highly resolving system, if it's also musical, it will still sound not-half-bad w/poor recordings.   

doug s.

[*Scotty*]

Another factor also needs to brought up. Was the component "voiced" by the designer to suit an audiophiles perception of what is considered desirable or did the designer strive for a neutral sounding circuit with no particular flavor. The thing about this practice that I find questionable is with the ability to voice a component in an almost infinite number of ways where do you find the accurate or neutral sounding circuit in this mess.  If a component is purposely "voiced" to sound a particular way it can hardly be considered uncolored or neutral in character.
Nothing my current system has been intentionally voiced to sound other than neutral including my loudspeakers. I think "voicing" can be considered an attempt at marketing a certain type of sound,basically what ever the designer thinks will sell to his target market. A very large number of audiophiles expect to be told that their component was 'voiced' with their tastes in mind or that it was "voiced" with an expensive audiophile approved cable or loudspeaker. By expecting to hear a story whether it involves how a component was "voiced" or whether the component has magic "Floobydust" in it, you are asking to be lied to.
To a degree what equipment is offered, "voicing" and all reflects what manufacturers think you will buy. I believe that most of tube based manufacturers entering the market in the last 15 years have done so with an eye to offering something different from the available SS gear and expensive offerings from established tube gear producers such as Audio Research and Conrad Johnson. Once again there is nothing wrong with buying equipment that has been "voiced" somehow, but it may depart significantly from neutral and it may not be good with some types of music.
In the final analysis this factor may be what drove the OP away from tube gear .
Scotty

[doug s.]

here's your preamp.  it will bring out the best in your system, regardless of what amp/speaker/source you are using.  imo, of course!     remote wolume control is also nice...

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1229506116&/Melos-SHA-Gold-mar-reference-+


doug s., no affiliation w/the seller...