More like Trane?

Tyson · « **on:** 29 Sep 2008, 11:57 pm »

I'm a dyed in the wool classical guy, but recently I've been trying to get into jazz. One of the few artists I've connected with is John Coltrane. Specifically the late Trane, the cerebral, punishing Trane. The crazy, agitatated Trane. I love it. And I'm looking for more stuff like this, so please suggest away....

rockadanny · « **Reply #1 on:** 30 Sep 2008, 12:08 am »

That happens to be the Train I don't like. I like everything prior to that. So I have rejected some music which is like that. Try Archie Shepp. Also perhaps Jackie Mclean. For some really far out stuff try Ornette Coleman too. I don't think you'll be disappointed with these.

konut · « **Reply #2 on:** 30 Sep 2008, 12:47 am »

3 words. A Love Supreme

jazzcourier · « **Reply #3 on:** 30 Sep 2008, 12:55 am »

You have the "punished" part correct.He was idled with serious dental problems from years of neglect,this effected his tone and he struggled finding a comfortable mouthpiece.He was dogged with foot problems that caused him to wear sandals everywhere.And worst of all his liver was giving out, years of booze and hard drugs ravaged his body.You are hearing an amazing mix of intensity,originality and human angst that is almost impossible to duplicate,though many tried.Throw in Black nationalism and his conversion to the nation of Islam and you have profound circumstances that simply can't be equaled.There are dozens of brilliant saxophonists who deserve your attention,but only one very special John Coltrane.

giantsteps · « **Reply #4 on:** 30 Sep 2008, 01:07 am »

I can contribute. Kyra is to my left asking me WTF I'm doing. ..........................bye

Tyson · « **Reply #5 on:** 30 Sep 2008, 01:22 am »

Thanks for the suggestions so far, I will definitely check them out. I don't think Saxophone is the main thing I am looking for. I'm looking for the cerebral genius that I sense in Trane (but not in Miles). To borrow a phrase, "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't".

mfsoa · « **Reply #6 on:** 30 Sep 2008, 01:34 am »

Tyson,
I'm wondering how your classical side has taken to Monk? I could see it being either a tough sell or love at first hear.

-Mike

Tyson · « **Reply #7 on:** 30 Sep 2008, 01:36 am »

Love at first hear. Of course you have to realize that I love Shostakovich, Stravinsky, Ligeti, Crumb, Riley, Adams, Schoenberg, Bartok, and Reich, so the love for Trane should come as no surprise.

richidoo · « **Reply #8 on:** 30 Sep 2008, 01:49 am »

Bird was a serious classical listener, as were many of the heavy boppers, including Miles. You will find the feeling with Bird also, although in purer, simpler tones than Trane. You'll get there, no rush!

Many contemporary tenors are trying to emulate late Trane. Spend some time on Amazon listening to samples and following suggestions (Others who bought Trane also bought this...) Check out Brecker and Bill Evans (tenor).
Rich

chadh · « **Reply #9 on:** 30 Sep 2008, 01:59 am »

Tyson,

Check out The Wayne Shorter Quartet on this recent recording: http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Sound-Barrier-Wayne-Shorter/dp/B0009I8QAY

I think Shorter's recent work shows a similar intensity to Coltrane's, along with comparable inventiveness and cerebral leanings. The thing that ties the two together most clearly for me, though, is that their music can feel so filled with soul while still offering the insights of their expansive intellects. It can be intellectually appealing without relying on the intellectual connection for its relevance. Shorter's recent music is probably not truly jazz - but I doubt if that really matters. It's brilliant.

For what it's worth, Coltrane, Monk and Shorter are my favorite jazz composers. Mingus might make the list as well, and it strikes me that you might find some of his work satisfying. Two other names that spring to mind are Eric Dolphy and David Murray.

Good luck.

Chad

Tyson · « **Reply #10 on:** 30 Sep 2008, 02:02 am »

Until the last two posts I was going to post a "you guys suck" diatribe, but the 1st post and the last 2 have changed it to a "You guys ROCK!". Thank you!

ArthurDent · « **Reply #11 on:** 30 Sep 2008, 02:04 am »

Like rockadanny my Coltrane tastes tend more to the 'classical' jazz years. I'm not strong on the free-form (crazy/agitated/punished) field, so this is more from memory than anything resembling recent experience, but seems Charlie Parker went that way in his later years. Thelonius Monk & Ornette Coleman I believe as well (if I'm wrong please forgive, no offense intended to anyone - artist or fan). Don't know that those would classify as crazy, agitated, or punishing, just on another 'plane of listening' in a manner of speaking. A great transition, and classic album in my opinion in that regard, is Miles Davis' 'Bitches Brew'. Shades of rock, classic jazz, and modern/free form jazz. A must have if you enjoy Miles at all, and I'd say there is some agitation in it rebelling against the confines of traditional jazz presentations.

I'm sure you will get many recommendations. Good luck on the search.

Oh well, day late, dollar short. 3 posts while I was thinking & typing. Not going to erase though, got to move on. Don't write Miles off if all you've experienced is his 50's stuff. Check into his later works post 'Brew', you may find more there to your liking.

Make that 4 .......

PS Thanks Chad for the info, haven't checked out Wayne since his Weather Report days.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #12 on:** 30 Sep 2008, 02:45 am »

Try Miles in Tokyo with an edgy tenor player named Sam Rivers. This is a good one, IMO, and the sonics are good, also (Japanese Sony re-master). Tony Williams is the drummer on this (he was 18, maybe 19 yrs old) and he flies! Miles plays beautifully on this. Dolphy is a cerebral cat also but I don't really know a particular album to recommend. Maybe Live at the Five Spot. Andrew Hill's Point of Departure (Blue Note) has Dolphy on it in fine form along with Joe Henderson who is wonderful here as is trumpeter Kenny Dorham. The star is Hill. All his compositions and noboby wrote like this or played like this. You could call this avant garde jazz. It's certainly a personal statement. Dig the opening track. One of my most heartfelt cryin shames is the mediocre sound given this in the re-master. Charles Lloyd's album Voice in the Night (ECM) is his best and he pays homage to Trane on the track of the same name. CL has a lot of ECM releases most of which are drivel, IMO, but on this he gets down. And if you don't know, Kind of Blue is a one of a kind album. Not "out" like later Trane, just sublimely beautiful and moody. Cannonball Adderley shines on this, too. Contrast the writing on this which is called "modal" with Hill's writing a few years later which is loaded with changes.

rockadanny · « **Reply #13 on:** 30 Sep 2008, 02:54 am »

My favorite "cerebral genius" happens to also play sax - Rahsaan Roland Kirk. Check out his Inflated Tear release.

Doublej · « **Reply #14 on:** 30 Sep 2008, 03:13 am »

Pharoh Sanders, Yusef Lateef

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #15 on:** 30 Sep 2008, 03:19 am »

Having reread your post, Tyson, I'm thinking you are wanting introspectively inspired music? Personal vision above all costs, that sort of thing. I would add Bill Evans to that. At the other end of the spectrum from Bill Evans there is Albert Ayler. Fierce, no holds barred extroverted playing! But best you try a few samples of him first. Mjosef comes to mind as a member who oughta dial in here.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #16 on:** 30 Sep 2008, 04:48 am »

Some fine artists already mentioned...

This might interest you.....Cecil Taylor.....

mjosef · « **Reply #17 on:** 30 Sep 2008, 06:26 am »

Interesting entry from the classical world...but if you really like the energy of the "late era" Trane...and you are hungry for more like it...
I see some have already mentioned Albert Ayler, Ornette, Sam Rivers...all good.

You need to check out Sun Ra...Coltrane actually took some pointers from John Gilmore, the sax player in the Sun Ra Arkestra. Sun Ra sorta represent the whole spectrum of jazz from the early big band jazz right through bop, be-bop, avant jazz and beyond. Way too many colors to describe. Talk about blistering horns...their sax frontline alone was hell-fire on Earth:John Gilmore, Marshall Allen and Pat Patrick.

Also worth mentioning...Anthony Braxton, George Adams/ Don Pullen, Lester Bang, Henry THreadgill, Julius Hemphill, David Murray, Muhal Richard Abrams...

Personally I really really like the Art Ensemble of Chicago. I have yet to hear a bad album from this group. Every AEC member was a master musician, Lester Bowie, Josef Jarman, Don Moye, Malachi Flavors and Roscoe Mitchell...and the great thing is that as members checked out ( either via a sabbatical or Ascension ) the group just went on with whomever was left, from quintet to quartet to trio...until there was only two (as of 2 years ago) then finally they recruited a couple new members...all through the span of some 4 decades.

Not sure which Miles you have checked out...but here are the ones I thought went beyond Trane. Live at the Plugged Nickel(8-disc box set), most of the 70's Miles like On the corner, Pangaea/Agatha, the Jack Johnson sessions, and most of the Cellar Door sessions(6-disc set). Miles was way beyond in his "live" recordings, IMO of course.

Quote

...Throw in Black nationalism and his conversion to the nation of Islam and you have profound circumstances that simply can't be equaled.There are dozens of brilliant saxophonists who deserve your attention,but only one very special John Coltrane.

I should ask Ravi if his father was a Muslim.
I'm sorry, but you need to delve deeper to see the real nature of his spiritual awakening. Try the wiki for starters. Or simply listen to his music after 1965...OM. aa
Oh and umm...Barack Obama is not really a Muslim.

As far as I know aa...

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #18 on:** 30 Sep 2008, 06:55 pm »

Mj- What'd I say? You even exceeded MY expectations (cept for Rabo de Nube). Cheers.

Hicks · « **Reply #19 on:** 30 Sep 2008, 07:54 pm »

Definitely Eric Dolphy, Ornette Coleman, Sun Ra and Miles Davis.

Also Archie Shepp and Pharoah Sanders.

John Zorn if you want to get really out there.