[Mariusz]

Thanks Timide and I am aware of that , however there is a work and time involved to make it successful like AgoN. What I meant was the format similar to AgoN with feedback, special section, product gallery etc. Even if it had to cost a little, I would not mind. Sure it takes the time and money to make it work but what if it did?????  Just imagine.

Mariusz

Feeback should be pretty easy to implement.  A lot of forum software has it built-in already.  It might require some tweaking to get it to work as desired for this purpose, but I think it could be done with little or no coding.  Product gallery might be a little harder, unless someone can think of a clever way to automate it.

Now we are cooking. 
Come on guys and AC staff......move your heads.
Let's make it work.
Guys at AgoN are already looking at the alternatives.
I am sure we have some members with tech. skills to make this happend.
It takes a will and energy but it can be done.
It would be a step towards the future and new horizon for this great site.
Just my 2c. 

Mariusz

[Double Ugly]

Come on guys and AC staff......move your heads.

There is only one noggin on the "AC staff" which really matters, and it belongs to Audio Circle's owner and founder, JohnR.

If you want to propose a change to this site, I suggest you broach the subject in Town Square.  There's no guarantee John will be interested, but you'll never know if you don't ask.

[TheChairGuy]

JohnR, unless otherwise inclined now, liked keeping AC a 'hobbyist' site when the topic was broached with him a year+ ago.  We all had plenty of conversations with him back then on more actively engaging Audiogon for classified...but, he passed.

John leans with his head, not pocketbook, on most matters.  So, he remains a rather poor, but rather honest, geek at heart.  I'm kinda' thankful for the tradeoff, frankly - as I meet too many others more interested in worshipping the almighty buck than doing something else entirely.

John (the other one )

[macrojack]

Maybe it's time for all of us to reflect a bit on how we behave about audio. Maybe we're a bit too obsessive. Maybe now would be an opportune time to apply the brakes to the equipment churn.

I have extra gear that I could sell but all will be well if I never sell anything again. Who among us has stuff they just can't stand to listen to?

The guy with the pink Dynaco has a legitimate reason to sell that thing but, since he painted it that color, I have to guess he likes that color.

I've been thinking for a long time that this whole hobby is experiential and that there is nothing absolute about it. Nothing is better or worse. It is always just a matter of appreciation. In other words, how well do you like it at any given time?

Isn't that a bit like food. Sometimes you eat something that isn't in your normal rotation and you find that it really hits the spot just then. Couldn't audio strike us in much the same way? Is there really an "absolute" sound? I don't think so. I don't believe that we are constant enough ourselves to be seeking a fixed goal. Everything about the whole deal is variable.

So think about it. If you were stuck with the same system you have now for the next three years, would that impose tremendous suffering on you or would you be able to sit back and ride that time out with the kit you now cherish?

I think it's high time for everybody to tell Audiogon to pound salt. And meanwhile, it wouldn't hurt for the AC crowd to loosen up a bit. You're awfully collegial, not to say cloistered.

[timind]

Maybe it's time for all of us to reflect a bit on how we behave about audio. Maybe we're a bit too obsessive. Maybe now would be an opportune time to apply the brakes to the equipment churn.

I have extra gear that I could sell but all will be well if I never sell anything again. Who among us has stuff they just can't stand to listen to?

The guy with the pink Dynaco has a legitimate reason to sell that thing but, since he painted it that color, I have to guess he likes that color.

I've been thinking for a long time that this whole hobby is experiential and that there is nothing absolute about it. Nothing is better or worse. It is always just a matter of appreciation. In other words, how well do you like it at any given time?

Isn't that a bit like food. Sometimes you eat something that isn't in your normal rotation and you find that it really hits the spot just then. Couldn't audio strike us in much the same way? Is there really an "absolute" sound? I don't think so. I don't believe that we are constant enough ourselves to be seeking a fixed goal. Everything about the whole deal is variable.

So think about it. If you were stuck with the same system you have now for the next three years, would that impose tremendous suffering on you or would you be able to sit back and ride that time out with the kit you now cherish?

I think it's high time for everybody to tell Audiogon to pound salt. And meanwhile, it wouldn't hurt for the AC crowd to loosen up a bit. You're awfully collegial, not to say cloistered.

I agree. Not sure how long it will last but I can't recall having less desire to surf or post comments on Agon. The items I would like to sell will sit for a while unless I'm lucky enough to find a buyer here.
Is it their recent action or am I just burned out? It definitely isn't the price increase as it really won't affect me all that much. My gear is not all that expensive.

[JohnR]

Hi, since I've been mentioned, I'll provide some thoughts here.

First off just to mention that as a general principle, I have no official opinion about other audio websites. It's a buttload of work to keep any site going, honestly, I don't care to criticize others that do the same.

"Bandwidth" is not expensive any more. What is expensive (should you have to pay for it) is the labour cost of simply managing a site. After that, the cost of developing it and maintaining the codebase. After that comes ancilliary costs, like managing backups and dealing with technical problems. The actual bandwidth cost is a long way down the list.

In contrast to the above, "traffic" is generally perceived as a valuable commodity. That would be by sites that count their worth in terms of advertising dollars returned per visitor or per thousand hits. This is not one of those sites.

The primary focus of AC is as a discussion board. Threads and posts are what make this site happen. That's the basics, there's no way around it. Things like the AC Marketplace are somewhat secondary but also free and there's been no development cost put into it. So if members find it a benefit, that's good and all part of helping our members. If we can improve the usability of the Marketplace, that would be great! I would love to be able to do it!!

However, I get lost when people imply that classifieds should somehow become the AC mission. If that happened, then AC would inevitably become a different kind of site. You can't be everything, you have to choose. If AC chose to be about making money from ads, then guess what... it would end up being no different from how you guys perceive audiogon...!!

[MaxCast]

I don't program or write code but I bet it would take as much time (or more) to run a classifieds section here as it does just to run AC in general and program yearly improvements.  I KNOW JR doesn't have the time for that.

I see alot of concern for Agon's price increase but what  about the alternate venues.
http://www.hificlassifieds.com/
http://www.hifihock.com/
http://www.audioxsell.com/category/0/Latest-Items.htm

[macrojack]

I don't see why selling on AC isn't a lot more successful as is. What more do we need than a bulletin board where we can post our "For Sale" items? Pictures are nice but utterly unnecessary. The old AudioMart was a screaming success without photos. I can't tell you how many purchases I made that way but there were many.
 
Audiogon already had my britches in a twist because of the way they manipulated their forum content and comment before this ridiculous increase in fees. Now they have gone too far. It isn't really so much about the money but rather their utter disregard for their clientele. No one wants to be treated that way.

One of the biggest problems in the audio community has to do with the way we buy. There is far too much concern over the last nickel. You guys will buy each other drinks all night long but get into a squabble over who will absorb $9.00 worth of PayPal fees.

JohnR is no doubt correct about the compromise in quality that commercialization of AC would bring. If you want the service and style of Audiogon, tuck your tail between your legs and go on back. If you want to be treated kindly and enjoy a sense of belonging, stick around here and find a way to get your business done.

[woodsyi]

I think you guys are making a lot of good points that should be discussed.  The difficult challenge for AC is to maintain the circle of friends atmosphere on AC and still generate enough income to pay for the necesarry site development and maintenance without John R. doing all the heavy work.  The Raison d'être for AC as John stated is really to provide a place where hobbyists and enthusiasts including those in the audio industry can mingle and discuss audio in a friendly atmosphere without overt commercial pressure.  I think there is room for a bit of commercialism on AC while maintaining it's unique feel.  I will make sure that we discuss everything you have mentioned here at the next Steering Committee conference and rest assured as a fund drive is forthcoming.

Kyrill, your wish for a one click donation will be coming soon.   

[miklorsmith]

AC has its own commercialism.  It's subtle but Agon's can be too, it just takes time to recognize it.

I'm not saying that as a bad thing.  We have toys, we like to buy toys, people here make good toys at reasonable prices.  There is mutual benefit.

I agree with Macro's assessment about Audiogon's content manipulation - it's the reason you don't see Zu threads over there any more.  There are other parts to it but Agon's hands are definitely dirty. 

The reason the other "for sale" places are less effective (for now) is what JohnR said - traffic.  If you want your piece sold Agon has far more exposure.  We deal in esoteric stuff with a tiny market to begin with, chances for a satisfactory sale increase the more times the bones are rolled.

[MaxCast]

so it seems people are upset with the price of the best 

you get what you pay for?

[miklorsmith]

That would certainly be the Goners' statement on it.

From a consumer's standpoint it's the lack of "added value" to justify "added cost" that makes me burn.  Oh, and I can't stand their anonymous post filtering in the forums but that's not directly on-point and also it doesn't bug me nearly so much since I quit going there.   

[macrojack]

I think we are all jumping on Audiogon because they are within reach. Unlike all the other corporate abuse we all take grudgingly every day, this is something personal and of a scale that we feel we can impact. I'm not suggesting that Audiogon is not deserving of our ire, but rather that they are getting both barrels from most of us because of pent up frustration we all feel for our cell phone providers and insurance companies and oil companies and credit card companies and car dealers and cable providers and so on and so forth.

Don't you feel like that little chrome ball in the pinball machine?

[mjosef]

Please no...don't turn AC into a Mall-like website(think A'gon), the MarketPlace is just right as it is, a small space for trade on a side street. You want the Mall...its just down the highway, a click and a flick and you are there. More traffic, higher prices...that's the Mall.
Every time A'gon raises their fee, this type of thread kicks up.

[jrebman]

Well, despite my rather urgent situation, I'm not going to post my two large ticket items on agon this time.  I said I would before they instituted the new fee, and while I don't think the fee itself is too onerous, it's the principle, and I personally am going to do everything I can to boycott agon from now on.

I'm sure my Sapphires would sell very quickly there though .

-- Jim

[macrojack]

A round of applause for Jim Rebman who is clearly a man of principle. I will join him in that promise.

Do you have enough sapphires to make a necklace?

[jrebman]

Enough Sapphires for a necklace?  I suppose so, if you're a really big dude and don't mind wearing a near 50 pound necklace.  Maybe I should call Mr. T.

I'm also going to try a couple of the agon alternatives if I get no action here.

-- Jim

[vman71]

I started a thread over here at AC awhile ago complaining about Agon and that I didn't like them.  Now I officially hate them.

1. Two positive points I'd like to make are that there are alternatives right now to A'gon that have been mentioned and,
2. I just met a gentleman who was well into a process of bringing up another alternative to A'gon.

Speaking to him briefly, I think we are in for a real treat when it comes on-line.  The beauty is that he's a software/coding guru and that means lots of nice things.  I apologize that I can't elaborate on it any more but I'll make sure that I let you all know when it does come on line.

I'm commited to trying my hardest to selling things here on AC, since I'm no longer going to list on A'gon.  I put up a listing yesterday and they (A'gon) took it down because I had more than 1 item in my listing.  You've got to be kidding me!  Greedy!  I can't wait to see them go down!

[macrojack]

There is something else we can do besides advertising our "For Sale" goods on AC. We might find we can better utilize this site by posting "Wanted" ads.

Anything that helps us collectively break our Audiogon habit is worth trying.

[vman71]

I just dropped the price of my amp that I'm selling here by $100 to stand by my commitment to avoid A'gon.  Thank goodness for AC!