Preamp Synergy

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GreatDane

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Preamp Synergy
« on: 27 Sep 2008, 12:11 am »
Hi everyone,

This is my first post. My current 2 channel system is Bryston Power 120 monos with a Rotel RA-02 preamp.

My question is, how much does system synergy factor in? If I upgrade from my Rotel pre to a Bryston pre, is it worthwhile?

I realize that this is a hobby of diminishing returns, and sometimes even upgrading to better gear does not always justify the cost.

What do you guys/gals think?

denjo

Re: Preamp Synergy
« Reply #1 on: 27 Sep 2008, 12:47 am »
GreatDane
I am a great believer of system synergy! A manufacturer would have "voiced" an preamplifier with its amplifier. They would both have been hewn from the same "wood" and that is what synergy is about .. the impedance, gain, etc. I will share one experience I recently observed with my Bryston B100. As you may know, its an integrated amplifier but allows me to use a separate pre instead of its built-in pre. I decided to pair my Bent Audio TVC passive with the amplifier section. The Bent Audio TVC is about the most transparent passive one can find - it allows absolutely what the source feeds it with. With 29 dB gain (which is generally higher than the gain of most amplifiers), I thought this would show how much better a separate pre would make the B100 sound. Wrong! The B100's built-in preamp sounded so much better - it had better balance between the highs, mid and bass whereas the TVC robbed the music of much of its midrange! With the TVC, I have had exellent results with some amplifiers while with others its only so-so.

One reviewer recently auditioned a Bryston amplifier (comparing it to his NuForce) and opined that the latter edged the Bryston ever so slightly. But he was using a non-Bryston preamplifier. If he had used a Bryston pre and power, I think the comparison would have been fairer and his review would have lent more weight.

I have heard the Bryston pre and power combo and the experience was sublime! If you have the opportunity, I would urge you to try your Bryston monos with a Bryston preamplifier and let your ears be the judge.

Best Regards
Dennis

Stu Pitt

Re: Preamp Synergy
« Reply #2 on: 27 Sep 2008, 03:14 am »
If you are who I think you are, you know my stance on synergy and preamps.

Most people fundamentally know what synergy is, yet a lot don't know how to achieve it.  Its not about pairing up a 'warm' piece with a 'bright' piece.  Its about maximizing sterngths and minimizing weaknesses.  When you truly have synergy, the sum of the parts is far greater than the whole.

In regards to diminshing returns, a lot of people look at that a bit wrong as well.  From a pure sound quality standpoint, the diminishing returns curve kicks in pretty quickly.  If you factor in things like build quality, durability, warantee and support, future proofing, and resellibility, then the curve gets higher.

I think the pre-amp is the most overlooked and underappreciated link in the chain.  Most times people are debating speakers, sources, or amps.  I've had dealers do side by side comparisons of pre-amps.  There was a huge difference to my ears.  Listen to a single chassis pre-amp, then a dual chassis one from the same manufacturer.  There's a huge difference.  In a perfect world, pre-amps would just switch sources and control volume.  Better pre-amps cut down on noise, grunge, etc.  A better pre-amp gives a cleaner window.

The RA-02 is a very good integrated amp for the money.  The pre-amp section may be a passive one.  Passive pre-amps are a great concept on paper.  But if they were perfect, they're wouldn't be any active ones.  In my experience, passive pre-amps are a very one trick pony.  They sound great at one certain volume level.  I've heard technically why and it made sense, but its over my head and I won't try to explain it.  Passive pre-amps have their downfalls in a similar fashion to what I'm about to say...

A better pre-amp should do a lot of things.  It should have better fine tuning of the volume.  Ever have a system that needed to be louder before it sounded its best?  Pre-amps play a big part of that.  Until the amp clips, the sound quality should be the same regardless of volume.  If the volume is extremely low, that's one thing.  But when once everything is audible, it shouldn't matter where the volume control is.  A better pre-amp will also have better channel balance.  Especially at low volumes, less expensive pre-amps will have an uneven balance between speakers.  Speakers and the room play a part in this, but in my experience the pre-amp plays just as much a part, and maybe more in some circumstances.  When I owned my 320BEE and B60, I played around with them together.  Using one as a pre and the other as an amp, and switching them around.  The 320BEE was basically incapable of playing at a low volume.  When the B60 was the pre, the problem went away completely; when the 320BEE was the pre, it was back.  The 320BEE had balance problems; the entire soundstage was about a foot to the right.  The balance control helped it, and I thought it was the room.  Nope.  The B60 as a pre eliminated it.  Using the B60 as a pre, the sound was so much cleaner, images were better defined, the soundstage opened up, frequency balance was better, and everything was tightened up.

The 320BEE's poweramp section wasn't bad at all.  There was far more difference between the pre-amp and power amp.  Using the B60 as a pre-amp with it made it far better than it should be.  But, the B60's power amp section is far better too.

Why mention the 320BEE?  Its about the same MSRP as the RA-02.  I think it was its direct competitor.  The 320BEE's truest downfall was the pre-amp.  The RA-02's pre-amp may be better, but how much better?

Unless you were underpowering your speakers, a Bryston pre-amp in your system should make just as much of a difference in your system as your amps made.  The best way to find out if its worth it is an audition if possible.  If an audition isn't possible, a second hand pre from Audiogon should give you the opportunity to hear it at home with little risk.  If its not worth it, you should be able to sell it for what you paid for it.

   

Stu Pitt

Re: Preamp Synergy
« Reply #3 on: 27 Sep 2008, 03:18 am »
Also factor in that you can have Bryston install a DAC into their pre-amps.  Its insanely good.  No other $1000 DAC comes anywhere near it.

alexone

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Re: Preamp Synergy
« Reply #4 on: 27 Sep 2008, 04:16 am »
 hi, greatdane!

 when i decided to go with high end gear i first bought the 4b sst. at this time i had a pioneer receiver (model vsx-ax4avi s). i was using
 the receiver's single ended pre outs to drive the Bryston amp. i noticed a deeper soundstage. a better bass, of course. all in all a
 satisfiying sound i thought. until i purchased the 26 preamp. it took me 10 seconds from the first time i heard this superb unit to
 understand how important a quality preamp is! it has changed the way i can listen to (better: into) music for ever. i agree with
 stu's comments about preamps. i never auditioned a Rotel combo. but given the experience i made with the Pioneer i am sure that
 a Bryston pre won't dissapoint you! toetapping is guaranteed...

 Bryston: hearing is believing. :green:

 al.

 

Stu Pitt

Re: Preamp Synergy
« Reply #5 on: 27 Sep 2008, 05:07 pm »
Through a pair of PMC GB1+, I heard a far greater difference between the BP26 and BP16 pre-amps than I did between the 2B SST and 3B SST.

GreatDane

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Re: Preamp Synergy
« Reply #6 on: 27 Sep 2008, 07:17 pm »
Thanks for all the replies.

Hi Stu, I didn't know you hung out here too! Your comments on diminishing returns made a lot of sense to me.

I'll eventually be upgrading the Rotel pre to something better - most likely Bryston.

bummrush

Re: Preamp Synergy
« Reply #7 on: 27 Sep 2008, 07:54 pm »
When you go from your Rotel to Bryston you will be dumbfounded with the difference then you see what's been holding back your amp ,it wont be subtle.I never owned Bryston,but no doubt its outstanding.
« Last Edit: 25 Nov 2008, 05:34 pm by bummrush »

GreatDane

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Re: Preamp Synergy
« Reply #8 on: 27 Sep 2008, 08:08 pm »
That's kinda what I figure too.

Stu Pitt

Re: Preamp Synergy
« Reply #9 on: 27 Sep 2008, 08:14 pm »
A lot of it also depends on your room, speakers, source, and your music's recording quality.  The system can only be as good as its weakest link.  With that being said, if you don't hear a big difference, something is out of whack somewhere.

PS - I mainly lurk here.  (That sounds pretty bad)  There's a lot of very knowledgeble Bryston heads here who I've learned a lot from.  If you haven't noticed, James Tanner (VP of Bryston) is a regular contributer.  How's that for customer service?




GreatDane

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Re: Preamp Synergy
« Reply #10 on: 27 Sep 2008, 08:19 pm »
I've noticed that. Pretty cool... I tend to read every post by Mr. Tanner I come across.

vegasdave

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Re: Preamp Synergy
« Reply #11 on: 28 Sep 2008, 08:36 pm »
Try the BP6 at least. I have one and I love it!

nobel

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Re: Preamp Synergy
« Reply #12 on: 29 Sep 2008, 07:34 pm »

Hi

 This is a topic which is very much to my heart. I have come to acknowledge that the best synergy is buying the power and pre - amp from one company. The CD player and the speakers in my view is the icing on the cake.

 There is a saying garbage in garbage out IE the better the source the better the retrieval of detail etc. When it comes to turntables i heartily agree but on the CD front I am not so sure.

 My first system was an exposure CD player pre amp and epos es14. This worked a treat but I wanted more bass. Thus on the synergy level I heard great things on paper that the PMC OB1 would not alter the synergy of my system. I found a pair on e-bay which were a bargain and brought them on the understanding that the sound would be the same but with greater bass. How untrue this was. In fact I was totally disappointed with the sound that I was then forced to start spending to get my music interest alive as it was waning at this point. I replaced the exposure power amp for a bryston 4 bsst. My word I did notice the difference as quiet clearly both this speaker and the power amp are a match in heaven. However it was evident that the synergy was distorted as the exposure pre amp and power amp had too much gain and the music was hard and weary on the ears. This meant having to dig deep into my  pocket to purchase the BP 26 which to my surprise I found on e- bay . It was three years old and I got it at a bargain. But the story did not end with the perfect synergy. I thought that the pre -amp was well ran in and thus at an instant every thing would be perfect. Far from it. The initial sound was bland and at one stage I wondered what the fuss of buying the BP 26 was all about. Not wanting to play the system  I allowed the pre amp to burn in for three weeks.

 After this long burn in period and acclimatising with the other electronics the system snapped into place.
However the story does not end here . I find that the interconnects although good in one system does not necessary work in another so the perfect picture is to also address this issue.

  As you can see it is not an easy task to replace what you have with other products especially if you have been use to one type of sound and want to improve on it. By upgrading to a different manufacturer gives you a different sound where your own ears need to adjust and accept a new approach. My system now is like being in a small smokey room in the front row of a jazz club.. Previously I was in the back row of an auditorium. I am much happier now but this is much to one,s taste.

niels

Re: Preamp Synergy
« Reply #13 on: 29 Sep 2008, 11:08 pm »
Have to agree with evryone, a good preamp is vital in a system, even more important than the power amp I would say. Its astonishing the quality difference between preamps, and even though you get shocked when you see the prices they are usually worth it.
Do not try to save money and jump the fence buying an inferior preamp.....

nickelbut10

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Re: Preamp Synergy
« Reply #14 on: 30 Sep 2008, 02:47 am »
Good to see you on here GreatDane. My man from the east side!  You already know my opinion my friend. Old or New, find yourself a Bryston pre amp in good shape and you will be blown away by the difference. Like Stu, I went from a NAD to a Bryston and almost fell over within the first 5 seconds of listening. Cheers bud.

ptiJean

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Re: Preamp Synergy
« Reply #15 on: 4 Oct 2008, 02:01 pm »
Hello everyone,
So good to read what you all say about having a good preamp.
Could you please just tell me some good Bryston preamp affordable references, so that I could discover Bryston's world ?
For the moment I have Yves Cochet preamp, with PushPul EL34 350B Valve Arts Sonic Frontiers amp.
Thank you so much,
Regards

nickelbut10

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Re: Preamp Synergy
« Reply #16 on: 4 Oct 2008, 02:10 pm »
Hey PTI Jean. Do you need phono? See if your local Bryston dealer has any used BP20's as it is a great pre amp that can be had for a great price. I believe it is the BP25 without the remote? Somebody can correct me if I am wrong on that.

ptiJean

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Re: Preamp Synergy
« Reply #17 on: 4 Oct 2008, 02:17 pm »
I live in France, can only buy some through Internet (ebay for example).
Thank you !
Regards

vegasdave

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Re: Preamp Synergy
« Reply #18 on: 8 Oct 2008, 03:28 am »
Go for the BP6.

Stu Pitt

Re: Preamp Synergy
« Reply #19 on: 8 Oct 2008, 02:28 pm »
ptiJean,

If you have to go the internet route, get whatever you can afford that has the features you need.  Newer is better, but not night and day better.  Bryston is Bryston.  Their sound hasn't changed much - in a very good way.  The newer stuff has more features like remotes, more inputs, and so on.  The newer stuff also has more warantee, which should be factored into the price/value of the individual piece.