Comparison of Bryston DAC with Benchmark USB DAC models

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chilest

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I was wondering if any has had the opportunity to compare the new external Bryston DAC with the Benchmark DAC USB or Benchmark DAC Pre? I am aware that the Bryston only supports 16/44.1 via its USB versus the Benchmark at 24/96. That said, in terms of sound, soundstage, imagining etc. how do they compare? 

I am considering these DACs to support both my Rega Apollo CD player (for use as an external DAC) as well as a MacBook Pro-based DIY music server.  The signal will ultimately feed into my McIntosh C2200 pre-amp/MC-275 amp out to a set of B&W 704s. Whether I purchase the Bryston or Benchmark, either one will need to last for a while (~4 to 5 years). Thus, this is a critical purchase.

Thanks
tom

Stu Pitt

Re: Comparison of Bryston DAC with Benchmark USB DAC models
« Reply #1 on: 23 Sep 2008, 02:13 pm »
I'd be very interested in hearing opinions as well.

wkatzir

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Re: Comparison of Bryston DAC with Benchmark USB DAC models
« Reply #2 on: 25 Feb 2009, 09:26 am »
   The search for right DAC for my setup has led in many directions.  But as I researched and compiled trusted opinions, the decision came to be between the Bryston BDA-1 and the Benchmark DAC1 USB.  The reviews for both have ranked them among the best buys for your money in both build and sonic quality, yet to my knowledge, there are no direct comparisons between the two available.  And, regrettably most retailers do not sell both, let alone have demos of both for comparison.  Fortunately for me I was able to come across one dealer that not only does, but one that was also able to set up an A/B listening session.  For that, I have to take a quick minute to thank the people at Westlake Pro Audio (www.westlakepro.com) for allowing me 2 hours use of one of their professional mixing studios filled with some of the finest audio gear as well as one DAC1 USB and one BDA-1.
   I brought with me my MacBook Pro with 25 records of various music stored as AIFF 44.1K 16bit files, a mini-to-toslink fiber optic cable, and a USB 2.0 cable.  All Midi Controls were set using that timesaving application, CA-Sample Rate, provided by the people at Computer Audiophile (www.computeraudiophile.com) with everything set at 44.1K and 16bit, except for the when using the Benchmark, which forces 24bit.  My salesman joined me as well as the Manager of the studio who was also interested hearing what the two had to offer.
   As we began A/B’ing between the two from song to song, it was instantly apparent how much louder the Bryston was then the Benchmark.  According to the decibel meter on the mixing board, it was approximately 3db louder! To my knowledge the Benchmark does has level adjustments on the back that could easily fix that, if its volume is an issue to you.
   Utilizing the USB connections of both units, we all appreciated the stronger treble and tonal balance that the Benchmark had over the Bryston.  Voices were slightly fuller, symbols were crisper with a longer finish, and keyboards and synthesizers had more impact and vigor.  On the flipside, we also noticed that the bass was stronger and more controlled with the Bryston.  The difference was equally as dramatic as the Benchmark’s strengths in higher frequencies.
   In terms of sound stage, the Bryston was slightly wider and a tad more room filling.  The Benchmark tended to be more forward and central.  Separation and definition were about the same on both units with some songs from Thom Yorke’s The Eraser Rmxs album sounding better on the Benchmark while others from Animal Collective’s Merriweather Post Pavilion sounding better on the Bryston.
   Unlike the Benchmark, the Bryston allows for the control over the up-sampling feature.  Throughout our tests, we almost always preferred the up-sampling to be on.  The difference between the function being on and off was miniscule, and I liked the fact that we had the ability to turn it off or on with the push of a button.
   After and hour and a half, both the manager and I preferred the Benchmark simply for its clarity and balance, with the salesman preferring the Bryston for its “pleasing scoop” that he felt evened out the balance with the midrange at higher volumes.  With my mind made and as we were packing everything back up, I remembered the mini-to-toslink cable that I had brought.  Knowing that the Bryston functions differently via USB then it does via its other inputs, we decided to switch the cables and do another quick test to see it there is a noticeable difference.  And, yes, there was a noticeable difference.
   The Benchmark sounded very similar to an almost unnoticeable degree, but the Bryston opened up revealing much of the lost highs that it lacked via USB.  It was not 100% at the level of the Benchmark, but it was 95-97% there, creating a very natural and full sound.  The Bryston’s bass also improved in tightness, which could be a result of the pairing with better higher frequency resolution or that over the optical pathway, the Bryston’s processing was better as a whole. Playing the Isley Brothers song, “People of Today”, the BDA-1 provided a much more musical experience then the Benchmark did, even evoking some head bobbing.  That is to say that the DAC1 USB sounded fantastic as well, it is just that the combination of the Bryston’s newfound clarity meshed with its already large sound stage, made for a more pleasing experience.
   The cable switch also improved on Bryston’s imaging, making for much sharper and more defined reproductions.  This was a noticeable difference over the Benchmark. Via the BDA-1, on Henry Fiol’s Fe, Esperanza y Caridad, the background vocals in the song ”Ven y Baila mi Son” were distinct and clearly separated in space from your left to slightly right of center, and when played through the DAC1 USB, the same separate voices merged into a group, and the space narrowed to a range slightly to left and right of center.  We played a few other songs with similar results.  On Heat Miser’s Mic City Sons, “Rest My Head Against the Wall”, the Benchmark had a very pleasant range with all of the instruments sounding as unenthusiastically energetic as I assume Elliot Smith had wanted them to be.  But when played through the Bryston, each of those instruments took its place within the soundstage, filling the room, and essentially making the whole experience more lifelike.
   Given this large gain in performance, I had to reconsider my decision made 30 minutes earlier.  If I had only the option of USB, I would have gone with the Benchmark without much of a thought.  It has a wonderful, clear, and balanced sound, that is sharp without being harsh or hard to listen to.  It, in fact, was a pleasure to listen to.  It is a unit that is worth every cent.  But, since the use of an optical cable is an option for me, I ultimately chose the Bryston.  The gains by using an optical cable were, in our opinion’s, game changing.   Its’ soundstage was wide and spacious, its’ ability for separation and definition was amazing, its’ control and authority was impressive, and its’ sound, for lack of a better phrase, makes you want to dance to the music; all making the Bryston BDA-1 an easy choice as my DAC.

Wes Katzir

Sasha

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Re: Comparison of Bryston DAC with Benchmark USB DAC models
« Reply #3 on: 26 Feb 2009, 01:03 am »
IMO the two are so far apart that comparison is meaningless.
Simple look at execution and measurements that recently became available will show that BDA-1 is significantly better piece.
In regard to any comparison, again IMO it should be done using the best possible transport and interface, what excludes USB and optical, notebooks and general use PCs. Only then appropriate assessment can be made, otherwise you may be misled as it seems obvious in the post above.

Watson

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Re: Comparison of Bryston DAC with Benchmark USB DAC models
« Reply #4 on: 26 Feb 2009, 01:11 am »
Simple look at execution and measurements that recently became available will show that BDA-1 is significantly better piece.

Which measurements are you referring to? I've been waiting to see a good set of measurements of the BDA-1.

wkatzir

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Re: Comparison of Bryston DAC with Benchmark USB DAC models
« Reply #5 on: 26 Feb 2009, 08:03 am »
Sasha-

     Firstly, even though the approach of both companies is different, I believe most people looking for a DAC in the $1000 - 2000 range for their PC/Mac based music server, will have these two on their short list.
     Secondly, my options for connection via my Mac Mini are to use either a USB or Toslink cable, and since those are my options, that is the way the test went.  No test is perfect.
     Thirdly, measurements are great on paper, but I always like to listen to make a final decision.  Have you listened to either one of the units?  And for that matter, have you listened to and compared them side by side?  If your tests are right, the Benchmark wouldn't be an option when comparing it to the Bryston, but in both the managers and my opinion, it was much stronger via USB.  And even if you went with any connection that made you happy, the Benchmark would still be a more suitable choice for someone who wanted to bring their sound more forward, or needs that extra 5% in high frequency response.
     There are no right or wrong choices when it comes to audio equipment, just ones that would most suit the specific needs of the installation.  I chose the Bryston because I have my speakers near field and I felt that the more suitable choice would be to go with the unit that provided a wider sound stage.

-Wes

NewBuyer

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Re: Comparison of Bryston DAC with Benchmark USB DAC models
« Reply #6 on: 26 Feb 2009, 08:54 am »
IMO the two are so far apart that comparison is meaningless...In regard to any comparison, again IMO it should be done using the best possible transport and interface..

Hi Sasha,

In your view, what is the "best possible transport and interface"?   :?:


Sasha

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Re: Comparison of Bryston DAC with Benchmark USB DAC models
« Reply #7 on: 26 Feb 2009, 03:11 pm »
Let me explain myself.  :D
I do not seek sound that is forward or laid back, more mellow or more detailed, or whatever.
I want as neutral components with as little of their own coloration as possible. Only very neutral systems can bring out the art in music, the soul if you will, in addition to typical stuff like details, imaging, etc., it all gets delivered, almost but never quite like the live unamplified performance.
So if someone chooses Benchmark in order to make the sound more “forward” because it is too “laid back” or whatever, then something is deeply wrong with such system.
I have gone through that, it is never ending story. You start with a single colored component and you are on the road to Hell, adjusting sound with anything conceivable, interconnects, power cables, this and that, never being able to remove coloration, just compounding one on top of each other.
Reason why I dismissed USB and Toslink is that I compared all the types on many devices in many combinations, and the two were every single time the worst sounding.
The measurements confirmed what was heard; both had much higher jitter in comparison to other types.
For this reason I would not base my purchase on the fact that USB on Benchmark “sounds better”. I would not use USB to judge component in the first place.
I would use the best source, interface, transport, and bring signal to the DAC with the lowest jitter possible to determine how it performs.
In addition, the very fact that Benchmark sounds very similar on all inputs tells me that something is seriously wrong with it. There is no such device that can eliminate jitter, their claims that all inputs sound the same because they miraculously managed to eliminate jitter below audible threshold is BS, the reason is that the unit colors everything and imparts its own signature.
BDA-1 does not sound the same on all inputs, it sounds like crap on USB, thank God for that.  :D
Look at it from another perspective.
Everything is built to the price point, everyone is trying to make money.
Both Bryston and Benchmark make products that are accepted as exceptional bang for the buck, no one in their right mind could call DAC from either as an overpriced piece of equipment.
Now, in comparison to BDA-1 DAC1 also sports volume control, headphone amp, yet costs less. What does it tell you, which one had better execution, higher quality of components? BDA-1 sports discrete analog section, DAC1 op-amps, nothing more is to be said.
As far as “best” protocol/transport goes, it is the one with lowest jitter (assuming proper execution of each), which is AES3 standard IEC 60958 Type I – 3 conductors, 110-ohm, XLR terminated.
The source you use impacts the quality of sound to a much higher degree than DAC (junk in, junk out), you want as low jitter as possible, whether the source is optical reader, PC, whatever, is irrelevant (if of course executed appropriately, with purpose). My experience was that there is no PC on this Earth that can sound good as source unless it was built for that purpose only, and this is what I did.
Your average notebook/PC does not fall into this category.
So, judging the performance of DAC using Notebook via USB and Toslink is not good assessment.
This is why it is absolutely imperative that you hear whatever you consider to purchase, and you hear it in correct setup, trying to figure it all out based on what someone else describes is futile.

BradJudy

Re: Comparison of Bryston DAC with Benchmark USB DAC models
« Reply #8 on: 26 Feb 2009, 03:27 pm »
So, judging the performance of DAC using Notebook via USB and Toslink is not good assessment.

If that is the setup the buyer is going to use the DAC in, then it's the absolute best assessment they can make.

What shouldn't be done is to apply someone else's conclusions to your own situation without keeping the context of the other person's conclusions in mind. 

Sasha

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Re: Comparison of Bryston DAC with Benchmark USB DAC models
« Reply #9 on: 26 Feb 2009, 04:14 pm »
So, judging the performance of DAC using Notebook via USB and Toslink is not good assessment.

If that is the setup the buyer is going to use the DAC in, then it's the absolute best assessment they can make.

What shouldn't be done is to apply someone else's conclusions to your own situation without keeping the context of the other person's conclusions in mind. 

Well, if that is the setup the buyer is going to use the DAC in, then there is no any kind of validity in conclusions, it is highly limited, compromised and subjective look at DAC.
The subject was the comparison of the two, notebook into DAC via USB/Toslink does not provide base for comparison and conclusions.
It is as if you used MP3 material to judge performance of DAC.
IMO there is more validity in simply looking at execution of the two units.

werd

Re: Comparison of Bryston DAC with Benchmark USB DAC models
« Reply #10 on: 26 Feb 2009, 07:06 pm »

BDA-1 does not sound the same on all inputs, it sounds like crap on USB, thank God for that.  :D


Lull ...... do u even know what jitter sounds like Sasha?, i didnt until i started seriousily listening with my laptop.

The USB on this dac is superb and outperforms all the other inputs due to my harddrive source. Take a serious read to Gordon Rankin's reply on the other BDA's thread and his take on jitter. He claims that Jitter is best dealt with at the source than with the dac and i agree. Proof is all there u just have listen to it.

ted_b

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Re: Comparison of Bryston DAC with Benchmark USB DAC models
« Reply #11 on: 26 Feb 2009, 07:31 pm »
Sasha,
It is always a VERY subjective look; in this case, it's at these DACs; it's is Wes's look.  He never purported that it was anything but his views. 

To use a sports analogy, the object of pitching is to get the batter out.  One would not judge Greg Maddux and Nolan Ryan on the same type of pitch.  One would not ask each of them only to throw fastballs; Maddux would fail.  The converse is also true (Ryan would fail if throwing nothing but off-speed outside corner stuff).  You judge each piece of equipment on what it does for you, in your setup, hopefully playing to its strengths, unique though they may be.  Wes was open and explained his setup pretty well.

wkatzir

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Re: Comparison of Bryston DAC with Benchmark USB DAC models
« Reply #12 on: 26 Feb 2009, 07:44 pm »
Sasha-

     I feel like there is a lot to respond to.  Let me start with, I understand your perspective.  In a perfect world, without limitations, budgets, or constraints a "holds no bars" "best-of-the-best" comparison would be valid.  I am sure I don't need to tell you that this world isn't perfect.  I tested the units the way that I would be using it, therefore making it the perfect test for my situation.  Does that mean that I fully explored the depths of both units abilities in the time spent I with them?  Clearly not.  But what I did get was what I needed to get, the differences they had via the two possible connections for my setup.
     In terms of coloration, well the same thing goes.  I have yet to find a setup, for under 25K that even approaches the levels of neutrality that you are speaking of.  No system can recreate what a live session is like.  Every electronic device will either add something or take something away, even if it is minute.  So I am confused as to why something might be "deeply wrong" with a system that the user loves, but might love even more with a change in one direction?  The fact that you state that you "would not base [your] purchase on the fact that USB on Benchmark 'sounds better'" given the restrictions of the budget and the constraints of the existing components, means that you are either so rich that these things don't effect you, or that you have some miracle fix that would make these real issues disappear.
     I never said that the Benchmark eliminated all jitter, what I said was that in our experience the Benchmark sounded similar on both inputs.  You might think it is crap via USB, and that is perfectly fine.  Two thirds of us thought it sounded better then the Bryston via USB.  Each opinion is valid.  That is where tests won't help, the experience of each unit is subjective to the listener.  Some love McIntosh, some don't.  Some love Ayre, some don't.  Some love NuForce, some don't.  But, when you write things like, "there is more validity in simply looking at execution of the two units", it is clear that the actual experience of the unit is less important to you the the spec sheets are.
     Once again, I repeat that I have a Mac Mini, not a disc transport, so using a mac for the test is the best choice for me to get a real comparison given my specific constraints.  Which is to say, all of the other inputs except for the USB and Optical could fall off both units and it wouldn't make a difference in my setup.  AES might change the music into auditory gold, but that wouldn't make it worth one more cent to me since, I cant use it.  So, why is a test I made for my specific needs, using the specific connections, using the specific files, using the specific gear, invalid?

-Wes

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Re: Comparison of Bryston DAC with Benchmark USB DAC models
« Reply #13 on: 26 Feb 2009, 08:15 pm »
Hi Guys,

My take on this is that your both right.

Sasha is saying that if you limit the DAC to a source or connection that is not representative of the state of the art then the true performance level of DAC 'A' vs DAC 'B' would be compromised.

Wes is saying I have to judge the performance on the sources I currently have available to me and the system has to work as best it can given those sources.

Think of it like listening to a 192/24 bit feed into the DAC vs listening to and MP3 digital feed - the 192/24 is a state of the art feed and the performance level of the DAC would be optimized.  The performance level between DAC 'A' and DAC 'B' could then be legitimately assessed.

The MP3 on the other hand would severely limit the ultimate performance level of the DAC due to the limited quality of the source. But if MP3 is all you have to listen too then you have to make a choice based on that reality.

The problem is that the poor source may in fact limit the listeners ability to tell which DAC's performance is ultimately the best.  But 'best' has a context depending on the rest of the system utilized.

My $00.02

james

wkatzir

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Re: Comparison of Bryston DAC with Benchmark USB DAC models
« Reply #14 on: 26 Feb 2009, 08:25 pm »
James-

     Thank you for that reply.  The purpose of me writing my experience was simply to provide people in my situation an opinion, if they wanted one.  I agree with Sasha that a direct head to head comparison with a state of the art setup would be amazing to read, or listen to if i was so fortunate, as all of the subtleties of each unit would be revealed.  As for now, I am confident that the Bryston was the right way to go given my situation and my experience.

-Wes

werd

Re: Comparison of Bryston DAC with Benchmark USB DAC models
« Reply #15 on: 26 Feb 2009, 08:57 pm »
JT u r such a diplomat :p

James Tanner

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Re: Comparison of Bryston DAC with Benchmark USB DAC models
« Reply #16 on: 26 Feb 2009, 09:00 pm »
JT u r such a diplomat :p

I know - what can I say - I'm a Libra!

james

Sasha

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Re: Comparison of Bryston DAC with Benchmark USB DAC models
« Reply #17 on: 26 Feb 2009, 09:28 pm »

BDA-1 does not sound the same on all inputs, it sounds like crap on USB, thank God for that.  :D


Lull ...... do u even know what jitter sounds like Sasha?, i didnt until i started seriousily listening with my laptop.

The USB on this dac is superb and outperforms all the other inputs due to my harddrive source. Take a serious read to Gordon Rankin's reply on the other BDA's thread and his take on jitter. He claims that Jitter is best dealt with at the source than with the dac and i agree. Proof is all there u just have listen to it.

Gordon Rankin's USB implementation and Bryston’s USB implementation are not the same, and are as different as they can be.
If you like USB more than other inputs on Bryston, it tells me that you actually like the sound of jitter.
And nothing wrong with that, jitter can be manifested in different ways and there are people that like some aspects of such sound coloration.
It is again the question of what you seek in sound.

werd

Re: Comparison of Bryston DAC with Benchmark USB DAC models
« Reply #18 on: 26 Feb 2009, 09:35 pm »
u should go on the road with that crap u would make tons at Yuk Yuks....lol

Sasha

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Re: Comparison of Bryston DAC with Benchmark USB DAC models
« Reply #19 on: 26 Feb 2009, 09:35 pm »
Sasha,
It is always a VERY subjective look; in this case, it's at these DACs; it's is Wes's look.  He never purported that it was anything but his views. 

To use a sports analogy, the object of pitching is to get the batter out.  One would not judge Greg Maddux and Nolan Ryan on the same type of pitch.  One would not ask each of them only to throw fastballs; Maddux would fail.  The converse is also true (Ryan would fail if throwing nothing but off-speed outside corner stuff).  You judge each piece of equipment on what it does for you, in your setup, hopefully playing to its strengths, unique though they may be.  Wes was open and explained his setup pretty well.

I agree, all subjective.
We are all right within our own preferences and references.
My reference is sound of live unamplified acoustic instruments and voices, what I hear at TSO, in front of big band orchestra, next to a small group of musicians, etc.
I hear more of such reference on BDA-1/ AES3 than on BDA-1/Optical or USB.
So I am simply describing my experience and stating my opinion.