[Wayner]

Barely on its second page and there are 614 views already. Perhaps some aren't as bored as Otis.

Wayner

[Rocket_Ronny]

oneinthepipe:

Some talk about toe in as in reference to the speakers facing straight forward and turning them in to the listener is toeing in.

That is not what I am talking about as that does not make any sense to me. When speakers are built they are measured directly in front of the drivers, or on axis. So when you set up your speakers and point them right at you then you are getting the speakers intended frequency response, on axis. That is a solid starting point. Toeing them out, what I universally prefer on all speakers, except maybe Acoustats, is pointing them away from the listener so that the intersection of the on axis point is behind the listener. Toeing in would have the speakers on axis in front of the listener.


With all due respect to Wayner:

Just to make it clear, I am not trying to slam you because your speakers are up against the wall, not at all. But this topic got me going, wanting to share how to turn a system into a musical monster.

So many people have their systems set up in such a way as to kill the potential of the gear, when they have the room to work with. If one does not, as I have been in the position in, and even now do not have the right room, then you have to make due.

I just wanted to raise the awareness of what is possible. I am sure you saw it for what was.


If one can't get the speakers away from the wall 8-12 feet one could deaden the wall behind the speakers. Notice I did not say front, or back.  aa  This will stop the refections greatly and help the soundstage breath. Placing T.V.s or large glass front equipment stands in between the speakers acts like a big sound reflector, a no-no, unless it's only your AV system. Also, if the speakers are near side walls and pointing more forward, then some dampening in front the speakers is a good idea. Finally, if your listening chair is backed up to a wall, then dampening behind your head is a big help. This is where I would deaden a room. Not all of it.



A very dead room kills the liveliness of the music. I record music, and if I play back the recording in a dead room then the music is dead. If the room is too live then you hear the room too much. There is a mid point that just sounds right.


Let Otis snoozze. He has his headphones on anyway. 


Here is my last sound room,

http://www.ScriptureSongs.com/audio.htm

and even though it was too big with a bit of reverb, it was killer. I schemed how I could put a track on the ceiling and have heavy sliding curtains to divide the room without my wife seeing them, but could not figure how to do it. But, picture that room, hardwood floor and all, with a wall at 18 feet parallel with the outside wall, and that would be a dream sound room. I would add some more sound absorbing thingies here and their.


Rocket_Ronny

[oneinthepipe]

oneinthepipe:

Some talk about toe in as in reference to the speakers facing straight forward and turning them in to the listener is toeing in.

That is not what I am talking about as that does not make any sense to me. When speakers are built they are measured directly in front of the drivers, or on axis. So when you set up your speakers and point them right at you then you are getting the speakers intended frequency response, on axis. That is a solid starting point. Toeing them out, what I universally prefer on all speakers, except maybe Acoustats, is pointing them away from the listener so that the intersection of the on axis point is behind the listener. Toeing in would have the speakers on axis in front of the listener.

Well, my speakers are on axis, according to your definition, and they are pointed directly at my face.  I'll try towing them out 10-15 degrees.  The room is only 15' long, and I can only get the speakers out about 3' from the wall behind them.  The room is 12' wide.  The speakers are currently 42' from the side walls.  Maybe I should move them in closer to the side walls to increase the soundstage.

[Rocket_Ronny]

oneinthepipe:

That's about the size I had with my Acoustats some years ago.    Well, o.k., o.k.,  a lot of years ago, like 25.

So you have the speakers on the long wall I take it? I tried both long and short walls. I preferred the short wall and pulling them out as far as possible. I even had them about 6 feet from me sometimes, but usually had them off the wall about 5 feet.

The walls were that 70's shiny fake wood wall board. I placed as much absorbing material, usually blankets, behind the speakers and got good results. My friend, known as Wind Chaser, here on the forum, had a narrower room but very long. We had his Model II Acoustats a good 12 feet from the rear wall and he had a mind blowing soundstage, if a bit narrow.

I try all kinds of crazy stuff when positioning speakers. Near, far, wide, whatever, you never know what will connect. Don't be stuck to any formula.

Rocket_Ronny

[Wayner]

I'd love to be able to do some of your suggestions, I'm just screwed unless I get the sledge hammer out.

Wayner

[Rocket_Ronny]

I hear you Wayner.

For myself, if I can't have the room for the system then I don't worry about the smaller improvements this cable has over that one, etc. Yes, they make a difference, but it does not really matter. Not compared to what a room makes. So that is a very good excuse to not fuss at all about this audio thing. Hey, that is our escape !!!  Lets all put our systems in the smallest room in the house and forget about it.

I get as much enjoyment out of my car stereo as my system. Why, because it's the music that matters. If the music connects while driving, or in a bigger rig, it connects. Right now I as I type I am listening to music on laptop with some Sennhieser HD580s, and it's a happening.

It's music that moves the heart, speaks to the mind, and moves a generation. That is why I am in the music business. I know it's power for good. As we speak, hundreds, if not thousands are listening to the music we have made. Whether on a portatble, car stereo, I-pod, or whatever. They are not obsessing about the sound, just taking in the music. We could probably learn from them.

Now if only I could make a decent sounding record. Maybe I need to go to GearSlutz to find out what mic pre will change my world.   

I did do one half decent sounding album, called "Thorns on His Head". Although I would remix it if I had the time.

Here is a link: Disclaimer, the sound artifacts off of the harmonica are from the low resolution mp3 compression.

 http://www.scripturesongs.com/Sounds/Thorns_10.mp3

It took me 6 years to convince my friend to record this. Naw, no, not now, was his answer. He finally came in becasue we were buggin him so much and did the voice and guitar. Said it was like being in a dentist's chair, very painful. My wife is back up vocals, I am the prairie wind. Wha-hoo.



Rocket_working on another album_Ronny

[Wind Chaser]

Listening on axis or off axis??

First the result really depends on the speaker.  For the most part - that is most speakers I have owned and heard - I prefer to have them towed in so the axis cross just in front of me - by about a foot or so.  This yields the most precise, focused imaging.  However this isn't always the case.  My current speakers with ribbon tweeters don't cut it in this arrangement.  They seem to image and sound better if towed out off axis.

The thing to do is experiment and listen with your eyes closed.  By closing your eyes your mind is free from visual distraction and that allows the brain to concentrate much better on what the ears are hearing.

[DaveC113]

I've noticed small rooms sound better "dead", and larger rooms don't need as much absorption and bass trapping. This is why I believe small rooms will never sound as good as larger rooms. This is my current theory after moving too many times in the last few years.

[oneinthepipe]

oneinthepipe:

So you have the speakers on the long wall I take it? I tried both long and short walls. I preferred the short wall and pulling them out as far as possible.

I have them on the short wall.  I can't put them against the long wall.  There is about 5'6" between the speakers.  I think that I will move them further apart and tow them out a little.

[sueata1]

oneinthepipe,,,,,,,Hey don't forget to hang a few blankets,rugs around,,,,,,, try a few at a time until ya
get that Image Locked,,,,,,,,,
Good luck,,,,,,,
Happy listening
mel,,,,,

[Dan Kolton]

Check out the first paragraph on www.linkwitzlab.com.  If this interests you, look over the website.  You'll find a wealth of knowledge about illuminating the room with speakers.  I have the Orion+ based on Mr. Linkwitz design, and I won't own anything else.  I've had plenty of experience with box speakers.  They just don't work right in a normal room no matter how much you mess with placement.

[Rocket_Ronny]

Awesome Dan:

What amps are you using to drive them?

I don't know, I have had very good success with box speakers, as well as speakers such as yours, the box free Acoustat model 3s and 1+1s.

What is the difference you find with the Orion's.

Rocket_almost built a pair of Orions_Ronny

[Dan Kolton]

I've heard Acoustats driven by Frank's Ultra gear and they are great; much better than with the tube gear that had previously been used.  However, the Orions are several steps better.  The bass is the truest I've ever heard from any speaker, and they bring you to the performance venue rather than bringing the performance into your room (hope that makes sense to you).

As to electronics, I use AVA Ultra Pre and DAC, but my power amp. is an ATI 1260 (12 channels of 60 watts each).  I use 8 of these channels, and will use the other 4 if I add Thor sub-woofers.  I tried a combo of AVA 120 (tweeters), AVA 150 (mid-range) and AVA Ultra 550 (woofers).  I had these amps around, so I compared to the ATI, and could hear no difference.  I believe this is the result of the crossover being electronic, so the amps need only drive the speakers, not a lot of capacitors and inductors in a crossover.  The single chassis ATI saves so much space, heat and complexity, that I kept it.  I know Frank frowns on the string of IC chips in the crossover, but he's never heard this system.  Of course, his amps are vastly superior to the ATI if used on standard crossover type box speakers.

[Wind Chaser]

I've heard Acoustats driven by Frank's Ultra gear and they are great; much better than with the tube gear that had previously been used.  However, the Orions are several steps better.  The bass is the truest I've ever heard from any speaker, and they bring you to the performance venue rather than bringing the performance into your room (hope that makes sense to you).

What do you mean by better?  With that I'll pitch you a question...  Which is faster, an electrostatic charge or a moving coil?  Also, keep in mind the distance a moving coil travels pushing a cone with air resistance. 

Of all the speakers I've owned, it takes far more effort to get Acoustats set up properly so that they are performing half way reasonable.  Very few people have the patience, let alone the knowledge to get them performing at optimum.

I’m not sure what you mean by... they bring you to the performance venue rather than bringing the performance into your room.  IMO this has more to do with the recording than anything else.  Since the venue for most recordings take place in a studio, I’d rather have the performance brought into my room.  However, when it comes to live recordings, a good system properly set up in an appropriate room will transcend the room and take you to the venue.

[Dan Kolton]

Go and look at the Linkwitz site if you want better information about drivers, including room interaction, etc.  You will see that the answer to your speed question is irrelevant.  When I listen to a well recorded classical or jazz CD, I'm at the performance.  This isn't true of all recordings.  You can hear lots of panning, juicing, etc. if that's what they did in the studio.  Much too revealing for some material, because the Orions tell the truth.

The Acoustats or other planar speakers approach this, but don't have the bass, and don't quite illuminate the room as well as Orions.  They will be demo'ed at RMAF in October. If you have the opportunity, go hear them, as well as the Plutos (less complex, ugly, easier to build,and nearly as good.

FYI: The Orion is DIY, although there is someone (not Linkwitz) who will build them for you at a price.

Now, that's enough off topic discussion of a product that isn't made or endorsed by Frank.  If you want to know more, PM me or go look where I said.

[sueata1]

I'm   'IN'   the performance with my Maggies that Are Properly set up!!

With Lot's of nice 'FAST' tight Maggie bass when Properly Driven!!!

Happy  listening,,,,

By the way this is a AVA Pitch for AVA 'Ultra Fast & Explosive Dynamic'  Electronics!!!!!    Go Frank!!!!!


Mel

[Dan Kolton]

You should like your Maggies, Mel.  They are very fine speakers when, as you say, they are set up and driven well.

[sueata1]

You are correct Sir,,,,,they are Very Fine speakers,,,when Driven Well by AVA equip. & thanx a lot for the compliment,,,,

Happy listening
Mel

[Vinyl-Addict]

Yes - you want to hear what the engineer heard.  Know what though?  Most of those rooms have diffusion on the rear wall and on the rear half of the side walls.  How are you going to recreate that with a dead wall or walls in the rear?  You can't. 
Bryan

Bryan, Does'nt diffusion require a certain amount of space between the listener to work effectively? For example, say the listener is only 3-4 feet from the rear wall and 5-6 feet from the sidewalls, what can he do?.....use absorption or diffusion? I moved a system (temporary move) into a room (13.5 x 15ft.). Can diffusion work effectively in this room? If so, where would you put diffusors? There are 12 broadband bass traps in there at the moment positioned in all corners as well as the ceiling/wall junctions. I also have 2 traps postioned on the rear wall behind me. Absorption at first reflection points as well.

[BrianM]

Hey all,
My stuff is currently in a small listening room (around 11x12) which therefore has its challenges.  With carpet, wall & corner treatments things were sounding pretty good with the speakers about a foot out from the 12' wall (not that short wall/long wall makes much of a difference in this case).  I still felt I was having standing wave/reflection issues so recently I tried pointing the speakers along the diagonal axis of the room and putting the listening chair near the opposite corner. I.e., speakers are not on the same wall but on perpendicular walls, both toed to pointing just about directly at the listener in the opposite corner. The listening area thus resembles a traditional kite shape (i.e. not an equilateral triangle, which in a room this size would require sitting too close to the speakers) with the listener at the bottom corner of the kite, the speakers at the two side corners, and the equipment rack at the top corner - top corner to bottom corner right along the room's diagonal axis.  What this did was extend the space behind the speakers considerably (the top triangle of the 'kite') whilst still leaving the speakers themselves quite close to their respective walls (only a few inches out) preserving good bass reinforcement. It seems to have solved most if not all of my reflection problems, hence improved imaging, and deepened the sound stage considerably.  Anyone else ever tried this?