Time to bring speaker placement topic up again......................

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Russell Dawkins

Can we get one thing clear, here - the "back" wall is behind the listener and the "front" wall is behind the main speakers - right?

I thought that was generally agreed, but from some earlier posts in this thread maybe I'm wrong.

Wayner

My poor Paradigm studio 40v.3's are 1" away from the front wall (thank you Russell) and I can't move them forward an inch 'cause they'll fall of the shelf. That said, last night me and the wifey were listening to some glorious vinyl with my new Insight amp and pre. Good god was there ever 3D going on. Stereo everywhere. Maybe the Paradigms like being up against the wall, I just can't do a damn thing about it.

I hate to even move them now as I really have them dialed in.

Wayner  :D

Russell Dawkins

Wayner, you may not need to move them to get an improvement, depending on what the surface of the wall is like to the inside and behind your speakers. If it is hard and reflective, you could probably benefit from absorption there - it is easy enough to experiment.

Just get a small decorative cushion or a folded middle sized towel and put it on the surface just to the inside (that is, between) the speakers.

As it is, there is a fairly strong radiation to the rear as the sound from the  front diffracts around the edge. If most of this energy is absorbed, a substantial improvement in clarity can be obtained. Not hard to try, if you haven't already. It's the first thing I would try if I had to have my speakers so close to the front wall.

If, from where you sit, there is any of the bottom of the shelf above visible and in front of the baffle of the speaker, you could probably also benefit from absorption there - it wouldn't take much to effect a big improvement. In both cases, if an improvement results you might want to source a small amount of acoustic foam for the permanent fix.

Finally, before you consider yourself done with your toe-in experiments, make sure you hear what it sounds like when the axes are crossed in front of you. More and more serious listeners are ending up with this arrangement and, for once, theory lines up with practice - logically it should work! Also, I dare say most speakers actually sound just a bit better a little off axis than on. Look how many times an anomaly in one of John Atkinson's on-axis frequency response graphs is exactly compensated when you look at the slightly off-axis response on the horizontal dispersion graph. That is, the response is actually flatter just that little bit (5º) off axis.

As always, if you have the ability, check your progress with a mono signal - the tighter the mono image, the better the stereo.

Russell

Wayner

Russell,

I will try some wall absorbtion material in-between the speakers. That is an idea that I've had and you have confirmed it. My toe-in is about 3 degrees inward, barely noticeable. I blame some of the problem on the tweeter of the Paradigm speakers. There is a 1/4" wide cast bar in front of them (why I don't know) and it is _ucking up their imaging to some degree. If you toe them in to a particular angle, the angle seems to help resolve the cast diffraction piece. I think they (paradigm) really screwed this up and I'm probably going to find someone to mill the goofy thing off, I really like these speakers, except for that. Maybe they'll beam hi-freq like a bastaed if I remove the "guard" but then, WTF.

Thanks for the input, Russell.

Wayner

Russell Dawkins

You're welcome, and I'd be careful with removing that cast bar - it may be blocking some objectionable sound coming off the center of the tweeter. Try removing it in some reversable way - one that you can put back on if it sounds ugly. I did some experimentation years ago with the domes of tweeters and you can make a huge difference to the sound by just touching the center of the dome - try it!

Russell

Flyquail56

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 27
Hey all,
... I tried pointing the speakers along the diagonal axis of the room and putting the listening chair near the opposite corner. I.e., speakers are not on the same wall but on perpendicular walls, both toed to pointing just about directly at the listener in the opposite corner... Anyone else ever tried this?

Yes! I first read about the idea in an article that Steve Deckert wrote on his website several years ago. Your description of the results is about the same as his, and mirrors my experience as well. It can work very well in a dedicated listening room, or anywhere that WAF is not going to be an issue. It's hard to believe sometimes how much of what we are hearing is reflected sound rather than direct. If a person can get past the idea that the speakers are in the room at a 45 degree angle, it's well worth the time it takes to try it.

Best,
Mike

BrianM

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 709
Fortunately for me WAF is not a factor in this room, I've been given free reign...The result is my ears not having to work as hard, the sound sits back a little, occupies its own space and is less "full-frontal"; as well as renewed appreciation for just how well the Van Alstine gear and the monitors perform under more optimal conditions.  If you can extend the stage depth, individual instruments are able to occupy their own space and not step on each other - which is something pretty much unavoidable in my experience, no matter how good your gear is, before you pay attention to placement and treatments. You can feel like you're getting all the detail of a recording, and then realize how the presentation of that detail can still be 'rearranged' to sound even better.