[Wayner]

Since I have received my new Audio by Van Alstine Insight EC preamplifier and Insight 260EX power amplifier, I have found myself fiddling with speaker placement and in particular toe-in angle. Perhaps it's the incredible soundstage and maybe sub-consciously I think it can be even better. I don't know. What I have found is that I been moving the speakers by incredibly small amounts, using my fist to give the Paradigms a slight nudge one way or another. They are exactly 60 inches apart in my near field listening environment and now are toed in about 3 degrees each..which isn't much. It seems that just a slight amount of change will have an effect on the sound field. Right now it's awesome.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Ricmon, are you finding yourself doing the same thing? Oneinthepipe, how bout you?

Wayner 

[gjs_cds]

Hey Wayner,

The more I think about this--the more I bet it's an issue of relative phase.  The reason why we are forced to reposition our speakers is because these (component) upgrades are changing the relative phase on the output.  These changes interact w/ the speakers (relative to each other), speaker placement, and room acoustics.  And since we are who we are--we quickly pick up on this and begin to tweak and make changes.

In other words, I'm hypothesizing that "soundstage" is nothing more than the relative phase of the components.  *Now*, it makes sense to me why component swapping might actually have some merit...  It's all a matter of relative phase output and psychoacoustics.

FWIW, I've changed the toe-in on my rig by about an inch w/ the Insight DAC.  This is a very real phenomenon...

I'm hoping FVA will chime in on this...

[Wayner]

Good deal....bunch of letters! I thought I was goin' more googy than I already am. We listened to about 8 album sides this afternoon. I laughed at how wonderful Supertramp, Crime of the Century sounded as well as Three Dog Nights' It Aint Easy. I think I'm hearing better stuff than the guy that was mixing the tracks down in the studio. Speaker toe-in is dialed in 'el-perfecto!

Wayner

[strat95]

Wayner, what is the size of your room?

I too was messing around with speaker placement a few years back and found it to be frustrating.  I could not remember after a few moves which position sounded better.

So I found these basic formulae and applied them and found the sound to be instantly better than what I was getting before.  The problem was that my speakers were too close to the side walls and rear walls.

The distance from the center of the woofer face to the side walls is:

    Room Width times .276 (RW x .276)

The distance from the center of the woofer face to the wall behind the speaker is:

    Room Width times .447 (RW x .447)

This is all you need to know to place speakers in a symmetrical, rectangular room!

If you decide to try it out, let me know how it works out.  Funny how the formulae do no account for room length.

TV

[Wayner]

strat95,

My room is about 12 X 16, however, I'm really limited to where I can really put the speakers. They are against the long wall on a shelf, and that is the only place they will fit. That Is why I do near field listening, as I have no other choice. It is working out OK, aside from taking the sledge hammer to it all (which I'm not ready to do yet). The nice side to it all is that you can get real personal with the music.

Wayner

[ricmon]

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Ricmon, are you finding yourself doing the same thing? Oneinthepipe, how bout you?

Wayner 

Over the years I began to notice I preferred the speaker placed with as little toe in as possible.  However I have also come to learn that a little toe is preferred to create a nice sound stage and imaging.  But Like you I some how think it can be better.  But here's the catch.  Some songs are going to drive you nuts trying to recreate that magic before the new pieces.  I think you are going to have to give your brain a while to adjust to this new way the sound is reproduced by your new equipment.  Then start playing with speaker placement again.  I think it will be much easier to discern what going on after your brain readjusts.

Ric

[Rocket_Ronny]

One of the biggest things people can do is to move the speakers off the back wall. The more the better. The back wall being the back of the soundstage, which some confuse in calling the front wall.

If you can get a 8 millisecond delay from the back wall reflections you will enjoy a much cleaner, direct presentation. You will also get a fantastic soundstage. One may give up low end thump and drive however, depending on your speakers, unless you have some kind of e.q.

Another biggy for me is to get your speakers apart. So many are content to listen to a t.v. sized musical presentation. I want BIG, life sized sound.

In my system I have my speakers 12' off the back wall, well sort of - I have some side walls coming in closer, but if I could I would rip them out I would. The speakers are about 10' apart, and about 9-10' from me. I usually prefer the speakers towed out about 10-15 degrees from directly pointing at me, on axis. This gives more air, and is more relaxing than on axis, or towed in.

I think the ideal room is about 16-18 feet wide, and around 26' long, with a sloped ceiling. This is the BIGGEST improvement one could make in a system.

I always get a chuckle when people talk about the fantastic improvements a powercord, or component, makes to the system, when the system is shoe horned into a puny untreated room. WHO CARES !!! The system is lame without the room. It may sound good, but it will not blow your mind with a 3d, holographic, real, presentation.

Just my very humble, unbiased opinion of course.     

Rocket_Your room is EVERYTHING_Ronny

[mfsoa]

Isn't the convention that the speaker wall is the front, and the listener wall the back?

Anyway, good post, I agree with your "room-centric" view on how to (actually, the only way to) get good sound.

You just gotta laugh (or cringe) at the megasystems in the fancy, glass 'n marble expanses.

No wonder these folks need to spend so much to get decent sound!!

-Mike

[sueata1]

Try 1st to make your room DEAD sounding....I achieved this by purchasing pretty pattern
Used Thick rugs (WAF just ok) @ flea markets cheap,,,,hang on the walls especially the back (behind the speakers) & behind your listening position.......Once this is achieved you will be amazed at how
the Image is Locked,,,,,get rid of all room reflections,,,,NO GOOD    Evil  and live happily
everafter.....
Happy Listening,,,
Mel

[mark funk]

To me sueata1 has it right, as DEAD as you can make it! I see so many rooms with hard wood floors and glass tables tops. There should be NO reflections at all. The only reflections you should hear are the ones in the room where the recording was made. My room is so dead, that when people come in and talk they get a funny look on there face because they hear there voice with no reflections from the room. Some have been in my room (after having there set in an over bright room for years ) say that my speakers have no highs.   

[bpape]

Isn't the convention that the speaker wall is the front, and the listener wall the back?
-Mike

Yes - exactly.  The room is oriented front and back based on where it is in relation to your seated position.  The speakers are in front and are the front of the soundstage.  The rear of the room and soundstage is behind you.

As for making the room as dead as possible, I'd respectfully disagree (seems strange coming from me, huh...)  Anyway, it's all about balance.  Destructive reflections need to be addressed - but not all reflections are bad.  In addition, just hanging a bunch of thin absorbant material in a room will do more harm than good.  Not only are you completely overdoing the high frequency absorption, but you're skewing the decay times across the spectrum even more than normal by ignoring bass decay time which is generally what's underdone in a normally furnished room.

Think about how much high frequency absorption you already have in a room with carpet, curtains, furniture, etc.

Sorry - back on topic.  Personally, I agree that you need some space behind the speakers to develop a good soundstage.  Distance from side walls and toe in are dictated by the specifics of the speaker and the room itself.  Generally, I prefer a more nearfield setup with speakers toed in to aim approx 5-6' behind my head.

Bryan

[sueata1]

Mark.........

That's funny I get the same response  "Mel it sounds like I died in here""  makes me happy to hear that
I've accomplished my goal.

Ideally,  I'd like to live and have my system in an Anechoic Chamber!!!Hmmmmm.   Maybe I need to get Out more!!
Happy listening,,,,
Mel

[Rocket_Ronny]

No,  , No,  , NO !!!!

The back wall is the back of the SOUNDSTAGE. If you were in a concert hall listening to the orchestra, would they call the back wall the front wall? The wall is named in relation to the performance not the listening position. This front wall, back wall, thing is so confused, by so many, I don't think it will ever straighten itself out.

I would rather have a live room than a dead one. Too dead kills the liveliness of the music. I know of a pro audio shop that went crazy with their sound room, filling all the walls with sound absorbing foam, until it killed the sound. The guys who did soon realized they made somewhat of a big mistake.

What is needed is a nice blend of live and dead.

Remember, YOUR ROOM IS EVERYTHING, USE IT WELL, and DON'T MAKE IT TOO DEAD, FRED.

Do I sound biased. Well, maybe a bit.  aa

Rocket_Ronny

[oneinthepipe]

I usually prefer the speakers towed out about 10-15 degrees from directly pointing at me, on axis. This gives more air, and is more relaxing than on axis, or towed in.

RR: 

I am not certain that I understand the tow out.  Are the speakers towed in, but just not towed in to the degree that they would point to the listening position, or are they towed out that they point out to the adjacent side wall?

Nonetheless, I need to rethink my speaker placement since I have been relocated to the smaller room. 

[ooheadsoo]

RR, while it may sometimes seem more logical for wall directions to be oriented relative to the speaker, I think you will universally find that audio nomenclature conventions state that front and back are indeed relative to the listener, not the speakers.  When you have a stage, you have stage directions and house directions.  In audio land, we use house directions.

[sueata1]

All I can say Guy's,,,your room sound. 'as good as it may be' was Not included or Intended to be recorded on the Original Tapes,,,therefore any sound your room Adds to the presentation (reflections,reverb,boom,etc.)  changes the original performance, (from what the engineer heard) thus the original source signal from cd to Speakers out into your ( Good sounding room) is again changed by your room.  What do we call these signal changes,,,,,Distortion...

No such thing as a Good Sounding Room,,,,,it shouldn't Sound at all!!
Happy listening
Mel

[DSK]

RR, while it may sometimes seem more logical for wall directions to be oriented relative to the speaker, I think you will universally find that audio nomenclature conventions state that front and back are indeed relative to the listener, not the speakers.  When you have a stage, you have stage directions and house directions.  In audio land, we use house directions.

Exactly! We are in a playback situation in a domestic environment, not at a gig venue.

I also have to agree with Rocket_Ronny ... you certainly DON'T want to listen in a totally dead room. Several years ago a few of us visited a friend who had the deadest (and ugliest) listening room I have ever seen. When we left, we all agreed that the music was dull and lifeless and unnatural. I certainly understand the argument that anything your listening room adds was not present at the performance. However, when have you ever heard a performance given in an anechoic room? There is always reverberant sound reaching your ears from all directions, including behind you (unless it is an outdoor performance in the open). I guess these reflections at the live performance eventually reach the recording mike (at a very low level) but in a playback situation they are all played back at you from in front, ie. from the speakers. If you have a completely dead room then you hear these 'rear' and 'side' reflections from the speakers and nothing from behind/beside you ... this is unnatural. Having *some* reflections in your listening room doesn't "fix" where the reflections are coming from but at least it helps stop your brain from being confused by hearing an indoor performance with *no* reflections at all and the playback room reflections are likely strong enough to overcome the wrongly placed low level rear/side wall reflections in the recording that are coming at you from your speakers. That is why it is probably best to beak up strong playback room reflections with a balance of absorption and diffusion so that you are in a more natural reverberant field ... ie. you are IN a room with the music and surrounded by it, rather than poking your head into the room through a window in the back wall.

[bpape]

Agreed. 

Remember that when the engineers mix, the ULTIMATE goal and test is to see how it translates into other, real-world listening environments - not how it sounds in other very damped rooms.  As is usual, the truth is in the middle.  Controlled, balanced damping is desirable.  Completely live or completely dead is not desirable.  Hey, I wish it was - we'd sell a LOT more product  aa but that's not what we shoot for.

Yes - you want to hear what the engineer heard.  Know what though?  Most of those rooms have diffusion on the rear wall and on the rear half of the side walls.  How are you going to recreate that with a dead wall or walls in the rear?  You can't.  In 2 channel, the room is required to assist in creating an enveloping soundstage.  In multi-channel, it's different.  You have additional channels to recreate that ambient information.

As for front to rear...  So the front row is actually the worst row and the back row is up behind the performers?   

Bryan

[jazzcourier]

Some really interesting comments and suggestions on the continuing struggle on speaker placement vs. room sound.I just want to add that many recordings have gone through generations of changes from the original intended sound as decided on by the "producer" and the "artists" at the time of the actual recording.Overdubbing,editing and in particular re-mixing-the later often being done after the fact without the musicians around to yay or nay actual sound of the finished "product".It often sounds no way close to what the music sounded like in the studio.Then you can add tweaks such as "sweetening" the sound,adding echo.Add to this generations of master tapes that have gone to digital from analog and then back to analog again in a re-mastering process.Add to this the inherent difference in sound with cd's and lp's.At the end of the line and the final stop-your system-you are trying to make a really messed up recording sound good and driving yourself nuts trying to figure out what is "wrong" with your system,speaker placement,and room.This is very frustrating and has ruined alot of recordings from the 70's in particular when the corporate weasels rained supreme in the "creative process".This may be why so many people are driven to forms of music that are,in essence,more "true sound" i.e. most acoustic Jazz,chamber music,Blues-acoustic and electric.The engineers set the sound and "leave it -don't grieve it" and let the music tell the story.I just want to remind everyone we are chasing a profoundly imperfect medium-thrilled by the victors and to the lions we must cast off the failures.....or the question being..."great performance,lousy sound...it is not our failure that great music has suffered in the path that brought it to us.Sorry if this has wandered off topic from the original post.

[Wayner]

Perhaps we are talking about two kinds of recording folks. There are many "rock" bands that work in a completely synthetic environment, and quite happy to be there. If you've seen how even acoustic guitars are miked, the "truthful to the music" concept falls on it's face. If you want to hear some almost completely unaltered music, there are some folks out there that try to do this and in some cases, do it very well.

Unfortunately, the microphone is the weak link in the chain. It can't capture what the human ear can, at least not in the same ways. The recording "artist" uses the medium to create any sound he or she desires with the nod coming from the speakers at final mix, manytimes in disregard to the original sound. With 64 tracks and greater, your not going to make a "natural" recording. The "recording artist" is the painter of the canvas world.

Other musicians are more serious about the sound and try to maintain some order through the production. I don't think many symphonies would like to have the cello section "phase-shifted" from left to right during the performance, but Pink Floyd would.

Wayner