[Ed Schilling]

Only as a 2 way. But that is a simple answer. It's not as  simple as to just  "scale things up". The real answer would be the question "why would I"? They meet all my goals as is. If they don't meet a particular other persons...well there are lots of other speakers to choose from.

I could build a thousand different speakers and they would all just be different......The Horns are just fine as they are right now...they were 8 years ago and they will be 80 years from now. The real trick is knowing EXACTLY why this is so....and I do. If a person doesn't know exactly what they want and how to get it, most likely the fruits of their labor will not ever get ripe. Knowing what you want is easy...learning what it takes to get it takes experience, knowledge and time. A lot less time on the internet and a lot more time building and listening and learning what actually happens when you change the slope of a crossover  rather than what the "line on paper looks like", for instance.

Hope this helps.

Ed

[John Kalinowski]

Ed never mentioned your horn at all. So you only like your design at least you keep a open mind....... And come hear the fe126e in OB. Or in a Nagaoka after all he is a expert in BLH design unlike you, youve said this yourself. Bass and peak SPL is reduced in OB but sound is pure unlike BLH. The Nagaoka design for fe126e is wonderful bass to 55hz and no corner needed. This thread was about others offering experance and personal preferance  for 4-6in drivers not about horn shops. And Ive heard many of yours, fine for fe126e if you can stand or house corner loading but a fe166e in nagaoka is just far better in all ways more SPL, deeper bass ,better image and no need to stick in in a corner to get such. And thats a benifit corner placement is very limiting and can - effect sound quality. Since you are not a horn guy or horn expert  [your words ] And dont even offer a 6in driver BLH. I dont see how your opinion unsuch realy holds any wieght. Seems you just shilll your own product in this forum. And how does corner loading a BLH reinforce all frequincey ranges? And since it doesnt why wouldnt the sound be forced in mid range etc? Showing a SPL reading doesnt show sound quality does it? A 4 1/2in can only do so much. Dont think fe126e was available decades ago or was the nagaoka design for it. Your reply to me was so full of BS and holes in logic I will just let it pass. All the best to you please dont take - tone from posts;) Just giving a honest opinion. As I said never mention you wee BLH in my post till now.

[Graham Maynard]

Oh I don't know.

I actually thought John K's post was quite reasonable until -

so full of BS

when his entire contribution became devalued.

G.

[John Kalinowski]

Fine I drop the BS comment and will keep the holes in logic. You can take what you want from my posts. I dont pull punchs and tell it like it is. Been called blunt, brutally honest maybe its a character defect. But its the way Iam.  When I am told BS I dont just except it without questioning.

[floobydust]

 Hopefully, we can all accept the fact that this thread has gone off topic. It's not really about enclosure designs, but about a preference for specific driver sizes. Pros and cons between 4.5" and 6.0" (and probably extended to 6.5") drivers made by Fostex and what the group members think about these and why they choose one over another. Currently, Fostex make 4 product groups of FR drivers, F, FE, FF, and FE-sigma. Hopefully we can forego the BS on enclosures and get back to discussing the drivers. Just a thought.

 Regards, KM

[Ed Schilling]

John, you did write this didn't you?

FE126E is pretty good but is a bit limiting sure you can get SPL like Ed shows but the sound.... A bit forced to me unless used in smaller rooms or near field.

You used my name and referenced an spl reading generated by my speaker and then explained how it would sound. And you are completely wrong.....your designs might have that problem for reasons I have already said.

Now, What makes you think I have not stuck a 126 and a thousand other speakers on a board? You do realize the 126 E is a variant of the Foster 103 which is a Fostex 103 which is a variant of the 108...........All of which I have in fact been using for decades in the case of the 103 versions. I am quite familiar with this family of drivers. Thank you very much.

You can not get 55 hz bass at high spl without corners or a large horn with a single driver speaker.

An expert? You'd be surprised....just because I don't do something (to sell) doesn't mean I can't.

I build single driver speakers because I like them.....it is my opinion there is an appropriate size. If I wanted to build single driver speakers that used large drivers I would (and do/have) build proper 2 ways.

I used Fostex drivers before Madisound was the distributor.....my opinions on proper size drivers for single drivers were formed a long time ago.

 Are you really not aware that placing any speaker in 1/8 space (a corner) increases the output? If so then simply take one of your speakers....play a test tone....measure it....and then stick the speaker in a corner and see what happens.

You just demonstrated a lack of knowledge that is frightening....especially since this is something that is so easy to test....for anyone.

As far as sound quality......well, they do have a nice set of reviews....and are a Stereophile recommended component.

As for being a shill for my product......no, but when guys say things that are generalizations and only apply to their understanding and it crosses into my area I think the errors should be pointed out.

Everything I said stands......I never said they were the "best speaker in the world" or "the best sounding speaker in the world".....I stated facts about them and what they can do. They can play louder and cleaner than most all single driver speakers regardless of driver size when corner placed. When not in corners they are closer to other (non correct) "blh's".

Extreme bass response in a single driver limits output and is easily taken care of with a sub.....and when this is done the output is not restricted. Having a claimed low bass response does NOT insure "quality" and actually interferes with it at high volumes.

Anyone reading my posts and wanting to build a single driver speaker could use my experience and success to do the same thing.....build a corner horn with a proper size driver. They will then have a speaker that can make high outputs with a small driver...which is good for a single driver.

You are correct about one thing......no graphs, pictures, or descriptions can determine sound quality......on that we trust our ears and those of others.....again, take a look at my reviews of my little speaker.

It is a shame that in order to explain why it works and has been successful that people like you think that my explanations are an attempt to shill it.

Nope buddy, just trying to educate you. You know, there is a reason the world listens to multi way speakers and not single drivers. And MOST of that reason is the fact that MOST single driver speakers have limited SPL....are quirky, and generally sound bad.

I can tell you 50 ways to build a single driver speaker that will sound wonderful at low to medium volumes. BFD. Who gives a shit?
The first Time you stick on BOC or The Stones and try to play above a background it becomes painfully obvious why just "good sounding" is not the complete package.

If you want to build single driver speakers that do exactly as people think they do..."play little girls with guitars" at low volume, by all means do it, but if you come on a forum saying things I can disprove, easily , at anytime, then expect some back lash.

You know, saying I'm not an "expert" based on my own words is sort of foolish. What makes you think I am not being humble? Do you really think I can't use a calculator or don't grasp the theory of horn design? That in the last 35 years I might have learned a couple things? And that just maybe I don't tell all there is?

Just because I do not claim to be an expert doesn't make me a dumb ass either.

So there you go......now please go take a speaker and set it in a corner and then come back and tell us all I am a dumb ass and the output did not increase, please. Of course what if I am right? Can I expect an apology for your ignorance?

Kevin,
You are correct....in case it is not apparent my preference is for the 4-5 inch driver! I like the Bandor and Jordan....but the spl thing is the deal breaker for me....

I carry the torch for the small driver because it works best in my opinion...the fact that others design for different goals must be considered. For me.....I think I am clear on my choices and how to do it.

It is important to discuss cabinet design because it directly relates to driver performance. Sorry if it comes across like an advertisement, not the intent but if I thought differently then I would not build what I do nor have the opinions I do. The DIY guys can take a clue from my thoughts or not. And build a corner horn similar to mine or not. But at least my rational for the loading is something that can be "thought about".


Ed
BTW...I just tested "white noise" at 4 feet both in and out of corners. The gain was  3 db. This is not insignificant, buddy.
edit*** at 1k (sine wave) the increase in output was 4 db when put in corners as opposed to out in room @ 4 feet

But I give up......."the 126 will sound strained at high spls if not used in a corner horn".

[chrisby]

Hopefully, we can all accept the fact that this thread has gone off topic. It's not really about enclosure designs, but about a preference for specific driver sizes. Pros and cons between 4.5" and 6.0" (and probably extended to 6.5") drivers made by Fostex and what the group members think about these and why they choose one over another. Currently, Fostex make 4 product groups of FR drivers, F, FE, FF, and FE-sigma. Hopefully we can forego the BS on enclosures and get back to discussing the drivers. Just a thought.

 Regards, KM

well said, Kevin

During the past 8 years or so, I've had the opportunity to build more than a few loudspeaker designs myself, with a wide variety of driver brands / types and numbers per enclosure.  It only took a couple of those years to become disenchanted with multiways, even with "precision engineered" (by others) crossovers.  Indeed this ennui reflected the lack of enjoyment I'd been getting from my Linn system that remained unchanged for almost 10yrs ( the particular component models are,  I think no important, but they were certainly near the "entry level" of their never ending product range)

My first experience with Fostex drivers was the RS40-1197, as well as the vintage Foster alnico driver that had seen numerous OEM incarnations and was affectionately nicknamed the FE103-A by Dave of Planet10.  Imagine the cognitive dissonance upon first hearing a little floorstanding bipole enclosure with a quad of RadioShack drivers costing less than $50.  Some samples of 30+ yr old alnico variants were even more magical.

Then at VSAC 2001, Terry Cain demo'ed several designs, most notably a prototype of what was later co-opted by the DIY community as the BIB, using a now discontinued 6" driver ( FE164?)

Since that date, I've had occasion to build and hear Fostex drivers from all of the ranges that Kevin mentioned above, and there is definitely a natural ease with which the 4.5" models deliver a balance of dynamics and detail from the upper midbass on up that, in the "right" enclosure for the application/room, is more than captivating enough to allow many listeners to filter through any perceived or measured deficiencies and simply enjoy the music.

Many of us have heard (all versions) of Ed's Horns, and as he says, as a well dialed in system they'll continue to amaze and satisfy listeners for years to come. However, at the risk of incurring his wrath,  not all of us have the appropriate room to allow an enclosure of this design to achieve its full potential, for the exact reasons that he describes in his post 105. 


I definitely have my favorite Fostex driver (actually 2 of them), and as no surprise to thread followers, several highly refined enclosure designs for them to which I'm very partial, of which numerous bespoke pairs have been built. I think it's a fundamental mistake to entirely separate the driver from enclosure/room equation.  Put a FE126 in small sealed box and you'll not likely get anywhere near the magic as in Ed's or any well executed BLH (Ron Clark's Austin or Scott Lindgren's designs come to mind).  Conversely, an F120A in a BLH would probably not be a great idea.

For some folks, and for numerous reasons, a larger driver and appropriate enclosure is simply a better match.  - i.e. as many satisfied builders / owners of Bob Brine's designs can attest the FE167E in an MLTL or resistively vented box can be very satisfying.

How much good comes of us rancorously arguing like the last few posts of Ed's and JK's epitomize? That's what Audio Asylum is for. 

[Ed Schilling]

As usual Chris, you hit the nail on the head on most every point. A speaker is just part of a system.


Ed

[floobydust]

Ed, Chris, John, et al,

 Good to get this back on track. I'm sitting in Germany laughing about now.... between a good curry (yes, I cooked), a bottle of Chianti and some Ramazotti. Yes, we all have our favorite Fostex driver and we all have our reasons for said decisions. No harm meant to anyone, no digs either. I think this is a good thread... and yes Ed, John, Chris, et al, some context about enclosures is appropriate, but let's keep the conversation a bit lighter.... and above the mud-slinging... after all, we're not politicians running for office (okay, no flames now).

 From the Fostex camp, my overall favorite is the F120A, and for good reason. Granted, low efficiency, limited SPL levels and all but the quality it delivers is special. Enclosures, well.... need more work on this (at least I do). Ed has fine-tuned the horns for the FE126e (which I own  pair of)... a nice job, while the planet10 guys along with Bud are working to push the F120A to new levels. John also is doing his part as well, just that I'm not knowledgeable there (sorry John). So, everyone should have a "wif of smoke" up their posterior about now.

 As I'm living in Europe for the rest of the year, I don't have any of my audio toys here.. so all I can do is live vicariously through others and pi** the rest of you off.... then again there is the autobahn, biergartens and driving around Europe enjoying the views.

 Regards, KM

[John Kalinowski]

Ed I know the history of fostex and foster. I know about corner loading. I never mentioned your loudspeaker in the 1st post just your SPL readings never mentioned sound of your horns.You came to that conclusion on your own. My 1st post was mentioning my preference for 6in fostex over 4 1/2in fe126e. You where the one who questioned my work. My 2nd posts was a reply to your wrong attack. Think what you will the fe126e is fine in BLH.Yours are very affordable.The market is also loaded with similar designs. I dropped my fe126e nagaoka  because of this. And Ed I  listen to much metal love BOC.

[Ed Schilling]

John, This seems civil enough .....I did NOT question your work. You made a statement about the 126's being good for small rooms and near field. I simply stated that I was sure none of your speakers were corner horns and as such you would be correct.....yours (and all other similar BL non H ) will sound strained at those volumes.

This is NOT questioning your work. Am I in error? Are any of the three you mentioned you had "corner horns"? They aren't are they?
Because if they were we would not be arguing....you would simply say...."Ed, you are right a corner horn is much more efficient than an undersized mouth on something people insist on calling a "BLH"

You, my friend,  however did question my knowledge and made a statement regarding the effect of placing a speaker in a corner and flat called me wrong. I am not wrong. Any speaker placed in a corner will gain output.

You questioned my knowledge of horn design....yet I build a speaker made as a back loaded corner horn and you and others build a speaker called a BLH. the reason I use the corners is to shrink the mouth ......kinda like PWK.
A BLH....is "back loaded HORN. Now, if I were to get picky I'd say "doesn't a "horn" have a set of rules we can all look up? "  And exactly how do you figure a front vented tiny opening box is any kind of horn?

In my world definitions mean things.....a BLH should actually be a "horn". A box with simply a path and an inappropriate size mouth is not a horn regardless of who calls it that.

The reason the "corner horn" exists is to shrink the mouth of a horn to an appropriate size.......if the mouth is not the correct size and you are not using boundaries to add to it.......I am sorry, but it is not a "horn" nor is it a "blh". It is a HFTL.

That would be "Hybrid Flared Transmission line".

I understand horn theory quite well.....which is why I responded to your post. I did not question your work, just your statements.

Hope this helps. And if not....oh well. And if all this is bothersome....check my new post for a little more to think about.
Ed

[Graham Maynard]

John made an excellent point above which disappeared within discussion -

Bass and peak SPL is reduced in OB but sound is pure unlike BLH.

Yes a driver is part of a system, and thus a prior decision relating to whether horn LF augmention of reproduction with delayed re-use of rear of cone output is acceptable when compared with LF augmentation via a separate driver, must have significant influence upon anyone's individual answer to the prefered driver size question.

Cheers ........ Graham.

[John Kalinowski]

 Ed we can endlessly debate weather a Hybrid TL BLH is a true horn. This you have a point on. These cabinet designs are hybrids. The nagaoka if you look in your plan that comes with fe126e is a TL BLH and ported. Thus the 55hz. I do make a true corner horn but its not with full ranges. Uses 8-15 4 ea in front BLH corner horn its 3 way, comp mid tweeters.Email if you want a pic.  But back to full ranges. Maybe Iam just spoiled by the best examples. For fostex fullrange I rate performance in this order skipping the drivers I dont care for but have used. fe126e, fe166e, f120a, fe208esigma,fe206esr, f200a, . Above this Fertin Lowther pm4a maybe dx4 but I didnt enjoy dx4 as much as pm4a or f200a, but I only built 2 systems with dx4, SEAS Exotic, feastrex. I am not listing PHY they are wonderful but maybe not full range since I prefer km30 sag. But the h21lb15 sag dam nice with a ribbon like raven or RAAL. This is my list say what you will.  Ive used fe126e in front horns this adds near 6db. Used with woofer and tweeter. I still was able to cause drivers to break up on complex music at hi-spl. Tried network helped a bit. Fe126e is very nice for price but it does get better as you move up in driver size and quality sure design maters much but so does transducer quality. No free lunch with loudspeaker design.

[John Kalinowski]

Mr Maynard, Did I say I use a helper woofer? I know I didnt for I dont use 1. My fe126e OB produces enough bass for music. If placed in a corner this large OB designs sounds very good just thought I would help out a newbie with a easy project. Maybe you and Ed should carefully read posts before jumping to wrong conclusions.

[Graham Maynard]

Here we go again.  What conclusions ?

Mr Maynard, Did I say I use a helper woofer?
 
Maybe you and Ed should carefully read posts before jumping to wrong conclusions.

NO !   Did I say you did ? 

I did not read incorrectly, I merely exampled 'loudspeaker system's as mentioned above in this thread. 
Including one which would utilise a single driver down to its natural displacement limit, where some constructors would then use an additional woofer/sub for the deeper bass without introducing waveform delay !
No different to you mentioning a woofer and ribbon with the 126e.

Cheers ........ Graham.

[Ed Schilling]

John,
Ok I get it. You (and many others) have not been able to design a commercially successful speaker using the 126 and have other speakers you like the sound of better. There is nothing uncommon here and I do not doubt what you like.  Most 126 designs fare the same fate for reasons I have already stated.

No, we can not debate what a "horn" is. It has a clear and concise definition. The "hybrids" are simply not horns.  I could give a rats ass who believes me and as long as people continue to think they are,  bad SD speakers will continue to be built. OOPS, my Hornline was a "hybrid" and I clearly called it that from the start, but it was a bass augmenter and for that the loading may work, it did for me.

The 126 is not suitable for front horn loading. But you found that out.

As I have tried to say............the driver is just a part. If you have others you like better, well great. I got no problem there. I find it amusing that people attribute "the sound of a driver type " to the results they get when they use a particular brand. If you build the same flawed designs and substitute different drivers in the same flawed schemes I can see how it could be easy to say "X brand is peaky and harsh".
 
Also, about the plans for cabinets for the 126. 

Bass response and the obsession for it is why most of the single driver speakers "can't play metal".

Single driver speakers are very tough to pull off..............if they were easy there would be more commercial designs. Many have come and gone in the last 8 years. Or changed dramatically in design. A truly good speaker will always be just that and if it continually needs "tweaking" then either it costs too much and is made for those that don't care of it was not all that hot to start.

I do NOT own the rights to "single driver corner horns" and my (the Buschorn) folding method is just one way to fold the cat. The observant that read my posts should be able to figure out some things that will help them.

So.....for what it is worth.........I prefer smaller drivers....I use the 126 but would NOT use it in another design, most likely. I use it because it works for me in this instance. I didn't use it because some said "the 126 sounds nice". It doesn't. It works well. It is just a part.

Ed

[floobydust]

 I dunno Ed,

 Reading John's last post, I read it as he likes the FE126E best in the list of Fostex drivers he's used. Granted, he went outside of the Fostex camp after that... as have many people and to larger drivers too. I agree that the FE126E is a nice driver... but as you've casually mentioned once or twice, it's only part of the system. I think you should also comment on your switch from the FE108E Sigma driver which was used in the Horns initially, there had to be some good reasons for you to switch which might prove valuable to others... ah, more sharing.

 I also prefer smaller drivers in the solo arena... and the FE126E is among them for obvious reasons, but I also have a fondness for the F120A. No, it's not suitable for horn loading and I don't see them pushing really high SPLs but they have their magic and provide better resolution of low level detail over the FE126E, at least in my extensive listening. But these two are different animals from the same zoo. They do play loud enough (for me) with additional power and they don't do anything really bad when playing loud. But overall I don't think it's a good comparison as they are very different drivers that share a common size.

 Regards, KM

[Ed Schilling]

Kevin,
Yea....and that post is a little "rough"....try this one....
(I agree with you btw on all points, because they are your opinion and you are not stating them as fact).

This discussion got off track and the reason is simple. A question was asked but the question itself is loaded (as we know). Part of the problem is that people are giving opinions based on their experience and “knowledge”, myself included.

 Here is a fact……every one of the drivers mentioned by John has the capability of building a fine sounding system within certain limits. Each is equally capable of building something that is “not great”. We all know this.

The trouble is that to the folks looking for answers they are getting information based on experience and not always based on fact.

Now if a fellow decides….”I like OB speakers” and he starts sticking drivers on a board I can say for a fact some will be better than others. BUT, he might just as well add a shaping network and make one of the “bad” drivers outperform the “better” driver.

So some one asks him…..”which is better?”  He says “x”. His buddy says… “you are wrong, that driver sucks”. The guy says….”not if you design the system properly.” “Know it all” says…..”BS, I have built an OB with it and it sucks”. The guy says…”how did you deal with the response shaping” Know it all says …..”I built 15 different size baffles for it.”. Mean while, the first guy’s speaker is commercially successful and 9 years go by.

Yet he still hears how the driver he uses “is not very good and as a matter of fact there are a zillion better”. And this may be true….for the designs that are being tried.  But in the grand scheme of things the system with the bad driver may actually be better than the systems the “know it all” is building with the fancy drivers. And the bad driver may in fact be outperforming the “better driver” for all practical purposes.

So hear(ha)  is the deal…….every driver has it’s best enclosure….all systems/drivers have limitations. But when I hear that the 126 (because I am familiar with it) is “only for small rooms and near field” It MUST be countered. And not because I sell a speaker using it, but because it is simply wrong.

Had I not built the Horns almost 9 years ago and were to look to the “experts” for help I would never have succeeded.

 My opinions are based on the speaker I sell.  My claims to it's performance are facts. If you use that driver and not the exact cabinet and loading then it should be no surprise if what you build is not the same or  similar or doesn’t play at the high levels we can achieve.

If you DIY and you are stuck on one type loading you may never find a perfect driver and by that same token if you have a “special driver” and you force it to be where you want it and not where it wants to be you’ll have the same result.

For those that think the 126 is just for “near field” here is a quote from a communication from John Atkinson (I save ALL email) after the Stereophile Review came out…..”Ed I was astonished at the quality and quantity of sound from your tiny speaker”. He wasn't talking about near field levels either.

Good luck, and please forgive me if this comes across like some sort of ad, it’s not, and my examples are NOT hinting at ANY person in particular. I promise.  If you think so, then Carly Simon wrote a song………..

Ed

[planet10]

Here is a small, very general editorial on driver size.

Choosing a FR means you have to choose your tradeoffs... i'll just tick off a general ones ...

1/ bigger drivers tend to be more efficient than little ones (which mean they play louder with a small amp)

2/ smaller drivers usually have better mids & tops.

3/ bigger drivers go lower & tend to be able to do dynamics better

4/ small drivers usually go in smaller boxes, with higher WAF, and lower cost to build

5/ bigger drivers tend to cost more (and i haven't meet a driver i can't improve)

6/ and a corollary to 5... a well modded small driver for the price of a similar priced large driver will usually have more finese. (disclousure: i sell modded drivers)

As has been pointed out over & over again in this thread, and worth restating... a driver under consideration cannot be considered separtely from the box it is in, the amplifier & other ancilleries, and the room that system is in.

That all said, my personal preference tends toward the smaller drivers, ny current system, Fonkens with FE127eN, but i must say they take on a much larger "personality" when mated with the push-push TL woofers (SDX7eN) designed to mate with them (XO @ 100 Hz).

And once you open up the possibility of a helper woofer, the FF85KeN with woofer is pretty appealing.

dave

[Ed Schilling]

Dammit Dave, Please change your post. I can find nothing to disagree with. Crap. Your use of the word "USUALLY" fixes it all!

It is worth noting the "trend" is that "smaller=more finesse"........

Good post Dave,
Ed