[EthanH]

I currently use Totem Arros and like a lot of aspects about them.  They create  a great soundstage and I like their tone.  I want to replace them with something that will provide a more visceral listening experience - the Totems go adequately low but for my tastes I'd prefer something that can reproduce bass with more impact, or heft or whatever you want to call it.  When I hear a live drum kit I can feel the percussion in my body, and would like to experience a little of this excitement in my system. 

I thought about a sub, but I don't think a sub is the answer for me.  Again, the extension is not the problem as far as I can tell, and I currently use  an integrated amp so crossing over at 80 or 100hz is not an option for me.  Besides, I think a more dynamic presentation in general is part of what I'm after, and I think this is just an area where the Arro is compromised.

So, I'd be interested to hear if anyone could recommend a speaker that will provide the sort of impact and "slam" that I'm after in a small room without losing the sense of space and openness that I like about the Arro.  I've heard some fantastic sounding speakers imo, but nothing in a small room or within my budget.  Other suggestions are welcome too - it could be that a better choice for me would be to ditch my integrated, buy something with a tape loop, and buy or build stereo subs crossed at 120hz.  Further complicating this is the fact that I live in an apartment right now, so my options are accordingly limited.  I'd really just like to hear other's opinions and experiences. 

[IronLion]

Whats your price range?  The first thing out of my mind would be Timepiece 3.0's or Minis, but that might be more than you'd want to spend.  The latter would get you close, the former would definitely get you there.

[bpape]

It may be as much the amp as the speakers. 

A similar speaker with good bass slam is the Odyssey Lorelei.

Bryan

[EthanH]

Funny, I love everything I've read about the science behind the Timepiece 3.0s, but indeed they're out of my price range at the moment.  The minis would be stretching my budget, and if I did indeed stretch for the minis I'd probably be disappointed if I felt the bass impact was at all compromised.  I guess I'd like to stay under 2 grand, new or used, if possible.
 
It could be that another amp would improve things, but I've experimented with 35 watts tube and ~200 watts solid state and find the impact lacking in both setups.  In my opinion I believe that the main problem is that not enough air is being moved with the Arro's two 4" drivers, but I'm not familiar with the physics behind audio, so any advice is welcome.

[DR]

EthanH,

Don't discount a sub so quickly. If you are happy with your amplification and your speakers basic tone, try the ACI Force XL. You can blend it easily with no crossover or use the passive crossovers which would work with your receiver. I am in a Condo and it gives me unbelievable flexibility. 


The best thing is I can adjust it in a second if I need to for the neighbors.

As far as slam, there is as much as you would ever want.

DR

[WGH]

How about the Salk SongTowers? From what I have read about them they sound like they would be perfect for you.

Wayne

[mca]

What size is your room?

[DR]

mca,

Who is the question directed too?

DR

[St_PatGuy]

As Bryan pointed out, the Odyssey Loreleis offer very good bass slam as well as extension.  I have my Loreleis set up in a small room, roughly 11x14, and have spent considerable time trying to adjust the bass to my tastes.  In the corners and wall/ceiling seams are Eight Nerve Response series products, and behind the speakers are 244 Bass Traps from GIK.  Bass seemed a bit overpowering still, even with the acoustic treatment, and then I finally placed a folded sock in each port to partially block the air flow.  While not ideal, this did the trick, and really improved the sound back to a balanced presentation.  The Loreleis deserve a much bigger room then I can currently provide, but right now I've got them set up just right.  They are very capable two-way speakers that can rock.  Heck, they even sound good while playing a pipe organ music.  Definitely a contender for what you are looking for, but bass is a tricky monster in small rooms.

[bpape]

They also do very well set up for nearfield listening which is exactly what you're going to want to do in a smaller space.  They'll amaze you with the image that they'll throw in all 3 dimensions.  They have the extension and slam of a bigger speaker but are tight and controlled like a good 8" driver.

Bryan

[doug s.]

Funny, I love everything I've read about the science behind the Timepiece 3.0s, but indeed they're out of my price range at the moment.  The minis would be stretching my budget, and if I did indeed stretch for the minis I'd probably be disappointed if I felt the bass impact was at all compromised.  I guess I'd like to stay under 2 grand, new or used, if possible.
 
It could be that another amp would improve things, but I've experimented with 35 watts tube and ~200 watts solid state and find the impact lacking in both setups.  In my opinion I believe that the main problem is that not enough air is being moved with the Arro's two 4" drivers, but I'm not familiar with the physics behind audio, so any advice is welcome.

i doubt an amp change would help.  i tried the arro's, crossed over to a pair of vmps larger subs, & even then, they fell apart w/complex music when things got loud.  admittedly, it was in a large room.  on smaller scale music, i thought the arro's were excellent...

if you wanna stick w/an integrated, you can find them w/pre outs/main ins, that would allow you to insert an active x-over, so you can use the integrated's amp for subs, & another (tube?) amp for the arro's.  if you don't mind not having a remote control, you cannot do much better for sound than a wintage sansui integrated, imo.  several nice modern integrated amps with remote & pre-out/main input are awailable, creek is the first that comes to mind.  then, there's the manley stingray - a fantastic sounding tube integrated, that can be gotten w/pre-out/main input option.  in this case, use its amp for the arro's, & a s/s amp for subs.  (or get powered subs & set their built-in x-over at their highest point, w/your active x-over at ~70-80hz.)  unfortunately, (imo), the stingray does not offer remote control.

crossing over the arro's will make them sound better, imo - they will definitely appreciate not having to see any low octave loads.  and, two subs will also work better than one, even (especially?) in a smaller room, due to more even room-loading characteristics two subs will provide, among other things...  using a single sub, unless set exactly centered between your speakers will degrade imaging/soundstaging, imo - especially if crossed over as high as 125hz...  stereo subs, set up to flank your main speakers will actually improve imaging, ime...

doug s.

[St_PatGuy]

They also do very well set up for nearfield listening which is exactly what you're going to want to do in a smaller space.  They'll amaze you with the image that they'll throw in all 3 dimensions.  They have the extension and slam of a bigger speaker but are tight and controlled like a good 8" driver.

Bryan

Very true.  Once I moved my chair forward closer to the speakers, things got much better.

[EthanH]

Thanks for all the responses.

DR:  I'm open to using a sub but from what I understand adding a subwoofer to pick up where my mains leave off with no crossover would mean setting it around 40hz, which is probably lower than I would want to get the sort of impact I want.  I don't think the ACI crossovers would work because I use a tube integrated with a sub out, and no tape loop. 

MCA:  the room is around 12x15'

Bpape, WGH, and St. Pat:  I was interested in the Odysseys and Songtowers awhile back and would definitely like to hear both of them.  I've read good things about the bass extension on both of these speakers, especially the Odysseys, although I think it's the transient response and "oomph" factor that I'm really after.  As you all know, only so much useful info can be had from reviews.

Dougs:  I hear what you're saying about the Arros and complex music at moderately loud levels, and I think this is a big reason why I have an itch to replace them.  I definitely need to think about your experience, as I assumed that crossing over the Arros to stereo subs at a highish frequency would free them up a bit on complex passages.  If I were to change to an integrated with a tape loop I would imagine that stereo subs would be required for a highish crossover point? 


Again, thanks for all the responses guys, it seems like I have a lot more research to do.

[doug s.]

...Doug s.:  I hear what you're saying about the Arros and complex music at moderately loud levels, and I think this is a big reason why I have an itch to replace them.  I definitely need to think about your experience, as I assumed that crossing over the Arros to stereo subs at a highish frequency would free them up a bit on complex passages.  If I were to change to an integrated with a tape loop I would imagine that stereo subs would be required for a highish crossover point?.. 

if this is your experience, i would suggest replacing the arro's.  they yust cannot crank, imo, even if relieved of any info below 80hz w/a 24db/octave x-over.  if you are noticing that in a 12x15 room, w/o crossing them over, i doubt you will get much of an improvement adding active subs, even in a smallish room. 

when i auditioned the arro's, i listened to them for almost 2 hours, entranced by their musicality, listening at moderate levels, w/simpler music.  then, i wanted to rock!!!  i put on little feat's "waiting for colombus", & turned up the juice a notch or three.  i had to turn it off in three minutes - it was painful...  time for you to check out new speakers, imo.

as an example, in the same set-up w/the arro's i tried, i also have had, (among others), a pair of proac tablette 8 reference signatures.  these are truly tiny speakers - ~10.5h x 6w x 9d, w/a 4.5" woofer & 1" tweet.  86db-efficient & 100w max power rating.  these speakers, however, in that big room, (26x38x8.5), would get louder than you could stand, w/any type of music, w/no congestion whatsoever, as long as they were crossed over to my subs at 80hz...  (you might even wanna try them in your room!  aa)

doug s.

[WGH]

There are a couple pairs of Von Schweikert VR2's on Audiogon for $1300. I'm using a (modified) pair in a 15' x 11' x 9' high room and my windows rattle on deep bass, no sub needed with these speakers and they will play loud enough without congestion to get you evicted. The VR2's were the media darlings a few years ago and always got rave reviews.

Wayne

[jaywills]

I have a room roughly your size and I've had good results with the Gallo Ref. 3.1 and the Gallo SA amp that drives the 3.1's second voice coil.  Check audiogon, but IIRC you could snag both separately at a total cost of ~ $2500 there. Of course, ymmv.  Cordially,

[Ericus Rex]

Ethan,

Sounds like you need to push more air.  4' speakers can hit the frequencies but can't push the air which gives the sound that 'slam' you're looking for.  You need larger drivers for that, IMO.  I'd say any well-designed speaker with an 8" driver will do that in your room.  I've been a Meadowlark fan since they came around in the late 90's and those speakers can now be had for next to nothing.  Agon has a pair of Shearwaters for $550 (an absolute steal!) and they do punch quite a bit.  I'd say they'd deliver what you want in your sized room.  Though you could afford the Herons on there right now I would suppose they'd be overpowering in your small room.  And don't even think about the Blue Herons....

[EthanH]

Doug s: thanks so much for sharing your experience with the Arro; pretty much confirms my gut feeling that they are a great speaker but probably just not the ideal speaker for my personal tastes. 

WGH, Jaywills, and Ericus:  all of those speakers seem really interesting.  Before I bought the Arros I was actually contemplating both Meadowlark and Von Schweikert but never got a chance to listen to either  - I'd love to hear well thought out transmission line bass, as I've read a lot of great things.  Just recently I've been thinking about the Gallo Reference 3 as one of many possible replacements for the Arros.  I like the fact that they employ 10" sealed woofers and the SA amp option, although I've never heard a ribbon before and recall reading negative things about their vertical dispersion characteristics ("head in a vice" sweetspot is a killer for me).  I was extremely impressed by the tweeter (air motion transformer variant, I think?) used in the Magico Model 6 when I heard it, although maybe these two driver designs are not really comparable?  In any case, the Gallo is another speaker I'd like to hear.

Again, thanks for all the advice guys.

[James Romeyn]

I suggest you read the multi-subwoofer suggestions from Earl Geddes (GedLee Designs) & Duke LeJeune of AudioKinesis here at AC.  IIRC three subs is the minimum.  I was skeptical till trying it & am now a believer.  Subs were installed under my monitors.  The four 10" sub drivers were pointed in every possible direction & the results always stunk.  Geddes technology was auditioned & the performance was excellent. 

Geddes suggests two different LP xo poles on three subs distributed throughout the room; one sub is below 50 Hz, the other two subs up to about 150 Hz.  Room modes are smoothed & distributed better than damping &/or EQ.  EQ is 1-dimensional & can not "fix" anything because the modes are 3-dimensional.  EQ can only push the problem (potentially making it worse) to another plane.  Damping has it's own problems & Geddes explains them.  Geddes is a PhD w/ decades of real-world experience in car & HT design.  One of his specialities is state of the art bass in small rooms, which have completely different acoustics vs. large rooms. 

Staging/imaging & air around bass instruments seems to beat all except for possibly the best 6'+ bass towers w/ multiple drivers ($70k Infinity IRS III, huge rare megabuck VMPS, Martin Logan tower subs, etc.)  Stereo bass towers of this size w/ multiple drivers seem to create their own room acoustic; nice but very costly & hugely demanding of real & psychic space.   

By all independent accounts Geddes' speakers are among the best.  Duke's are my favorite floorstanders.  Duke makes a nice three-pieice subwoofer system called SWARM.  Check it out.   

Definitely look them up.  IMO this technology will one day be considered a state of the art standard. 

[JLM]

IMO the Arro's have rather extreme spl/bass/dynamic limitations. 

Nearfield setup (search for Cardias or just play around a lot) with corner bass traps (like GIK stuff) are the first steps regardless of equipment, especially in a small room.  Not as "fun" as buying equipment, but will help avoid fustration.

Unless you're wanting ear bleeding spls (and the Arro won't do that anyway), the amp isn't the problem.  The Arro is quite inefficient, so a speaker change is almost guaranteed to help with peaks/dynamics.

At AKFest 08 the rooms were very close to the size of yours.  And the only "full bass" capable speakers that didn't boom around 80 Hz IMO were transmission lines.  Until the last few years transmission lines have been impossible to design (except by trial and error or experience), but they have a natural 1st order bass roll off that matches room gain (like sealed cabinets, but extend bass farther).  Being more open, transmission lines are more musical/"faster" than sealed or ported designs too.  By far the cheapest there were GINI.  For $1300 they offered a two piece, two channel system with a LS3/5A clone (classic two-way British mini-monitor) on top with a small transmission line woofer.  Keeping price in mind they were quite enjoyable.  The monitor fits on top of the bass unit, but can be separated if needed for better performance, so best of both worlds.