[TheChairGuy]

No doubt woodsyi/doug s. is right....however, these output a very stable/regulated voltage, but don't regenerate 60hz sine waves (needed for absolute speed accuracy for AC synchronous motors as I understand it).

The VPI SDS does, ditto for more expensive units from Clearaudio, Walker and even PS Audio and Monarchy Audio (but these last two are whole system regenerators and don't offer some of the other TT specific features).

Here's another one I found (I just ordered a new Advent 300 Preamp/Tuner from them....the most flexible vinyl preamp I can think of with potentiometer to dial in loading from 10 to 100,000 ohms and 4 positions of capacitance loading, too, for under $1000.00  )

http://www.soundofthewood.com/arturntableps.html

It doesn't have quite the range of speed control as the VPI (probably don't need more than the 3% offered by Sound of the Wood), and I don't think it drops down the motor voltage once the table gets going as the VPI does....that lower vibrations from the motor.  But, it's 40% less than VPI's unit.

BobM made one DIY for his ersatz VPI, as well, may be he can fill everyone in on that one, too.

John

[consttraveler]

pgastone:

Back to your original question; a good starter table/arm/cart. combo for under $2K (used) is the Rega P25, with it's standard arm and a Dynavector Karat 19D.  This is a system that I had for quite a while and I would characterize it as sounding "clean."  By that I mean, There is not a
lot of coloring being added by the table, or arm, or cart.  Simple and cheap tweaks like the regulated power supply and a heavier arm weight, can be added later if you want.  Set-up is relatively easy compared to other tables I have owned, especially those with a sprung/suspended plate.

The phono stage really is personal preference because it, as much as any thing else, will determine how you can manipulate the sound, to get it the most pleasing to YOUR EARS.  My favorite is my Herron Phono-pre which is tubed and gives it a sound to die for, to MY EARS  .  I have a Coph Nia stashed away somewhere that is SS and very nice to listen to, but just a tad dry for me, and an EAR step-up transformer that does not do anything that I can recognize, other than increase the signal gain.  Rega makes a low dollar phono pre (I also have one of those in the closet) that is pretty good for the money.

Hope this helps,

Dave

[SET Man]

Hello,

I read the "next tt" posts with interest.
Well, I recently had a Mitchell Hydraulic Reference with a SME 3009 and Blue Point Special Evo III assembled after I bought it years ago.  I bought a Bellari phono to run it through my system. 

......

Hey!

   OK, wait... let back up a bit. Are you saying that right now you have this.....



http://www.michell-engineering.co.uk/turntable_picture_gallery.html

   This one right? So, what wrong with it that make you want to buy a new TT set up?

   Can this thing be serviced and tuned up? Or it is dying? Or is that strange hydraulic system is bad?

   If this beauty still work well. I would just spend money on a nice cart... maybe a woody Benz (if it work with that arm of course) and a nice tubed photo stage with MC resistive loading options instead of a new set up.

   I've never heard this table just I'm sure it enough to get the job done.

   Or am I missing something here? 

Take care,
Buddy

[Miney]

If I were looking...  based on what Mr 2bigears recently shared regarding his P9 acquisition, I would consider grabbing this.

[TheChairGuy]

While I somewhat agree with John, I don't think he has ever played in a band. The direct drive may play with steady pitch, but the band didn't. That is the one small flaw with the statement that a belt drive can't have steady pitch. Hard too if the source isn't. Well, unless it's totally computer music from a digital source.

Just someting to think about.

Wayner 

Well, your partially right Wayner...I was frontman for a garage band back when I was 17 yo.  Indeed, I was off pitch (of course I was stoned a lot, so I wouldn't actually remember it  )  Good thing I didn't pursue it further....you apparently need good hair to be a lead singer (Michael Stipe of REM, aside) 

However, unregulated belt drive cannot keep pitch steady enough for me....made only worse by the 'wow' of spring-suspended tables. For me, for me, for me...please keep vitriol to a bare minimum (ha)

Your again partially right...you won't hear it listening to amplified music by (essentially, pop) bands.  There's too much to go wrong with before the playback part of the equation....and the production/mastering was done with less care than jazz, classical and other genres, typically.

Piano, if you listen, makes very clear that unregulated belt drive doesn't cut it.  Massed strings, tympani shots and crescendos in classical can muck up the timing (smooth rotation) - clearly to me (no golden ear here, just an average sort, but I hear it).  I can hear the unnaturalness of most brass and woodwinds, too, with unregulated belt drive.

If you don't have the best reference available to you, live, un-amplified music, then simply miked jazz and classical on clean vinyl will tell you all you need to know.

If it's mostly rock, pop, etc. - most any TT that works, and a cartridge too, will do.

I'm not trying to sound smug or smarmy, but I heard so many times a couple decades ago that Classical was the most defining musical genre in which to judge equipment.....I couldn't quite understand it back then, but I understand it all too well now.

So, for me at least before I'm willing to plunk down $2K or so on a properly regulated belt drive....I listen to fully regulated direct drive and understand the inherent pratfalls of this system (motor connected to platter means higher levels of 'noise', all other things equal) outweighs the pratfalls of the other drive system...until I'm ready to plunk down some serious cash to upgrade from analog front end.

THAT day is soon coming I think.....

John

[jmpiwonka]

i've been paying very close attention to the speed of my empire.
it might not be at the perfect speed, i haven't put a strobe on it or anything....i sure sounds steady though.
that's playing all kinds of stuff...and lots of jazz.

this is a particularly smoking album. crazy heads on the tunes. scott lafaro on bass usually plays the head with the band. some nice arco solos from him too.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000C24JW?ie=UTF8&tag=ornettecolema-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B0000C24JW

[twitch54]

Piano, if you listen, makes very clear that unregulated belt drive doesn't cut it.  Massed strings, tympani shots and crescendos in classical can muck up the timing (smooth rotation) - clearly to me (no golden ear here, just an average sort, but I hear it).  I can hear the unnaturalness of most brass and woodwinds, too, with unregulated belt drive.

John

Bingo !! absolutely John, I agree, and for that reason I can say the biggest improvement to date has been the addition of the SDS unit to my VPI Aries-III.

[TheChairGuy]

Well John,

First, your album (if analog) was recorded on a high speed reel to reel. It has wow and flutter. It's speed varies. The bands tempo varies. The master lathe that cut the vinyl for stamping has wow and flutter. it's speed varies. Then finally you play an album. It has wow and flutter and it's speed varies.

There are also other defects that can cause pitch shift. One of them is spindle hole location. If it's off center, even minutely, the pitch will warble constantly. The other is dirty records that can cause a drag differential (from say, a stain or finger print smudge). A warp can also cause speed fluctuation because the tone arm is busy going up or down when it shouldn't be going anywhere

There we have a possible 7 things that can contribute to your perfect pitch problem, and you blame the last guy in the loop, which to me, isn't fair, nor is it correct IMHO.

Yo Wayner!

(I think you posted the above in response to this topic, that of unregulated belt drive, but it was in the Technics topic running concurrently.  I've answered it in both places)

I own a Technics SL-1200 MK. II and a VPI HW-19 MK. III.....and I have Rega mount armboards for both.

Using the same tonearm, the Origin Live Illustrious Mk. III with the same cartridge mounted and all relevant specs dialed in correctly, I've run both....and it doesn't take but a moment on the right music to know that the Technics keeps time and the VPI does not. Piano, and most forms of classical point out the differences rather immediately.

The spring suspension of the VPI has been defeated [using foam swimming tubes propping up the plinth, recommended by Mike at VPI, and by this use I have a DIY Stand-Alone-Motor-Assembly (SAMA)].  I've wiggled and played with belt tension to find the best result....and I own a outer clamp that weighs a lb. or two (that does not fit the Technics as the platter is recessed into the deck), that significantly reduces record-induced wow to a minimum...allowing reproduction more akin to master tape...in all ways, except for painfully obvious differences in pitch and speed regulation.

http://www.soundengineeringllp.com/productdisplay.asp?id=1

The outer record clamp (along with an inner clamp I use) keeps the record flatter, reduces warp induced wow...and adds additional outer mass and acts like a flywheel and reduces the effects of the AC
motor drives ratcheting action...finally, the record weight absorbs micro-vibrations.  It works wonders...but doesn't change the obvious difference in speed regulation between the two decks.

The VPI Mk. III platter is a rather heavy, non-resonant affair (it's the better unit they made the earlier units with...not acrylic....rubber over lead and cork or something) to begin with at about 12 lbs...so, theoretically at least, it should have a pretty good flywheel affect to begin with and overcome alot of the speed issues - right outta' the box.  But, it doesn't 

I never play a record unless it's been cleaned thru my Nitty Gritty RCM, preserved with LAST....and every couple plays my stylus tip receives STYLAST.  We don't have static issues in California (no heaters and low ambient humidity....we don't have lightning strikes either )

I just received a Linn/Jelco tonearm board for the Technics....which I can mount to the Technics and use with my AQ PT-6 arm (with dropped counterweight). The VPI has Linn/Jelco board, too, with the excellent VTAF from Pete Riggle.  If I mount THAT arm on both tables, with the same cartridge and dial in everything needed....it will likely still be painfully obvious that the VPI sounds bloated and out of pitch.  Even, to me...not one of perfect pitch whatsoever.

So, I don't know what's left of the variables to assess otherwise.....it's abundantly clear to me...unregulated belt drive doesn't cut it for high-quality, vinyl playback.

That doesn't preclude me buying a belt drive deck next time....but it'll have a strictly regulated AC or DC drive system if it does.  Otherwise, it'll be a step back in an important regard....something that the advent of CD/redbook has raised our expectations of the past 25 years.  I want CD-like speed regulation...not cassette or reel-to-reel-like pitch...on playback.

On a strict budget, that is something I see that only a direct drive deck can do right now.  When you step into $1500+ (give or take a few hundred, there is no line in the sand on this) and can buy a well sorted belt drive deck, preferably well isolated without spring suspension (viscoelastic or silicone may act differently, but I don't know firsthand)...then and only then do I find belt drives measuring up in this important regard.

But - I'm not talking about a pitch problem with the Technics....I don't note an issue on that point with it....it is preferred to the VPI overall (for reasons stated above).  But, it doesn't sound as good as the JVC....even with a reportedly fabulous tonearm on it.

Ciao, John

[Wayner]

A 3,000 dollar tone arm does not equate to quality. You and I both know that engineering costs, tooling costs and amortization of costs (based on quantity) and shear number of units manufacturered relative to perceived value determines price in it's postion in the market place. Of coarse all of the other ya-buts are in there too, like labor, shipping and all that other junk. Compared to the Technics tone arm found on an SL-1200, the Origin can't compare to the tooling invested, design resources and shear number of units made (in the hundreds of thousands), having several mods along the way. The Technics SL-1200 and certainly the SL-1210 are probably some of the most highly engineered tone arms of all time. Next, the question has to be asked "does that make the Technics tone arms the best sounding"? One might think so, but on the other hand, can a less than stellar tooled up, low production arm be an equal or even a better? There are examples aplenty of both.

To be blunt, and I don't want to hurt your feelings in anyway......Why would you put a 3k tone arm on a $400 table? What's even more strange is why wouldn't you buy a NEW ONE (technics t'table) first to find out what they are really like, stock? Or are you afraid that all the idiots at Technics knew what they were doing and well......damn them for making such a highly engineered product for so little money that it makes almost all other tables a JOKE. Especially considering the stock price of about $450. Hell a lot of AC'rs spend more on a stupid cartridge then that!

As far as your JVC, I attribute your fondness for it like a first true love and unless something can sound like it, (good or bad) it doesn't measure up.

OK, now it's your turn.

 

[TheChairGuy]

A 3,000 dollar tone arm does not equate to quality. You and I both know that engineering costs, tooling costs and amortization of costs (based on quantity) and shear number of units manufacturered relative to perceived value determines price in it's postion in the market place. Of coarse all of the other ya-buts are in there too, like labor, shipping and all that other junk. Compared to the Technics tone arm found on an SL-1200, the Origin can't compare to the tooling invested, design resources and shear number of units made (in the hundreds of thousands), having several mods along the way. The Technics SL-1200 and certainly the SL-1210 are probably some of the most highly engineered tone arms of all time. Next, the question has to be asked "does that make the Technics tone arms the best sounding"? One might think so, but on the other hand, can a less than stellar tooled up, low production arm be an equal or even a better? There are examples aplenty of both.

To be blunt, and I don't want to hurt your feelings in anyway......Why would you put a 3k tone arm on a $400 table? What's even more strange is why wouldn't you buy a NEW ONE first to find out what they are really like, stock? Or are you afraid that all the idiots at Technics new what they were doing and well......damn them for making such a highly engineered product for so little money that it makes almost all other tables a JOKE. Especially considering the stock price of about $450. Hell a lot of AC'rs spend more on a stupid cartridge then that!

As far as your JVC, I attribute your fondness for it like a first true love and unless something can sound like it, (good or bad) it doesn't measure up.

OK, now it's your turn.

Wayner - you are one prickly dude today - what's up with that?  Momma' holding back and the pipes are a little backloaded??

Again, you are responding to my post in ANOTHER topic - one about the Technics SL-1200 Mk. II.  But, you're so hellbent on being a dick today, that you missed the nudge - again.

The Origin Live Illustrious Mk. III is being used because it's the only Rega-mount arm I have....I had a sanely priced (by audiophool standards) Rega 250, rewired with Incognito, and a dropped Expressimo counterweight.  Due to the Origin Live dropped/2 piece tonearm board and the dropped counterweight...the Rega arm (which sounded great) would not fit in the dropped hole of the OL board for the Technics. 

So, around the time I realized this....a very lightly used OL Illustrious Mk. III came up on Audiogon.  Back then, the official list was $2700.00 and I paid $1800.00 in a fit of audiophooldom that doesn't happen that often to me (fortunately, I'm built a bit cheap). 

What is it the hell to you how or on what I spend my money on?  Did I rip it from your bank account to pay for my foolishness?  Is anyone poorer for my foolishness? Sheesh, allmighty....

Fact is you have glossed over most of the point of my post...that is, the same tonearm and cartridge was used in both tables and the Technics still sounds 'etched'...thereby somewhat nullifying the point that it's only the Technics arm that is holding back the performance of the SL-1200.

For all I know the tonearm is absolutely stellar...it seems to be something relegated to the drive system of either all SL-1200's or mine specifically.  I'll only know that if and when I send it in to Kevin / KAB for the outboard motor and strobe disabler.  Or, do I need to clear my audio expenditures with you first...Mommy 

As for buying a used table.....it was advertised on ebay as having a working arm on it.  My original intention was to compare the stock arm to the Rega.  If the stock arm was good, I might have had KAB rewire it and buy the damping pot (I am a BIG beleiver in silicone damping...proved with my prior table 3 years ago with DIY experiments). I was already happy with the JVC, but curious to own my own SL-1200...and wanted to start inexpensively. The guy in Florida I bought the table from packed it like an ass and the tonearm was smashed upon arrival here.  I bought it for a great price - so I didn't complain much to the kook who sold/packed it - I didn't leave him any feedback, but in retrospect should have 



Anyhow, I got a beat up $150.00 table that works....and a $80 Origin Live tonearm board and $3,000 Origin Live arm. I was fond of my old Thorens TD-316 when I first bought it in 1987.....but it sounded like crap in 2000 when I returned to this hobby after listening to CD for a few years.  Tho I didn't like redbook...I appreciated it's perfect speed stability and the Thorens didn't cut it bone stock.  I'm not that nostalgic to love my JVC of 2 years overall others just because of that.

I'm afraid of nothing from you, Origin Live or Technics...and I reserve the right to pursue a higher level of fidelity any way I choose to.  As you may. Further, I bloody well know about economies of scale and low volume and high mark-ups of specialist makers to achieve a living in specialist/hi-end audio.

I've been kid gloves with you on a bunch of accusatory posts you've made flaming me in the past for merely stating my honest beliefs....but, I won't give you an ounce of leeway now just because you are a sensitive or grumpy sort. None at all.

Don't flame me  and you won't be basted, boiled and grilled for your bizarre behavior in return. Simple. ain't it?

John

[pgastone]

Uh oh...didn't mean to start a war- that said, all of this has been very useful.

Just to answer a couple of questions that came up:

Set Man: that is indeed the table I have and I bought it unassembled and had it put together by audio analogique in NYC.  Unless they didn't do so with the proper care (and I have to admit I do wonder even if they specify their expertise in dealing with high end equipment inluding transcriptors) I find that the turntable is fairly noisy.
On quiet passages you can hear the underlying rumble etc- it pretty good on louder music but still I suspect we are far from what a good set-up should be capable of....
Should I have it rechecked?  I assumed that a table from the 70's was bound to fall short vs more modern tables due both both to age and technology.

ChairGuy: I will def keep in mind that if I go with a belt drive I should have a speed controller- in fact I looked at solid wood- but is that just for ar tables or applicable to any (excuse my ignorance)....
If I do not get a speed controller I will look into a KAB Technics- i've been doing some reading and it does really seem like an interesting proposition.....I would be very interested in maybe looking at replacing the arm at some point like you did (maybe with something just a tad cheaper than an origin live...).

[TheChairGuy]

Hey pgastone - you didn't start anything - your questions were plenty innocent enough 

The Sound of the Wood motor controller works with any AC synchronous motors up to about 8 watts (according to it's designer, David Plummer - who is making my preamp/tuner from a donor Advent 300 receiver).  I think many AC motors are synchronous, and most draw under 8 watts. 

At $599, it a heckuva' lot cheaper than VPI's (similar) SDS unit ($1000 retail new).

There's a lot of ways to reach satisfaction in vinyl....and speed regulation can be achieved by various means....but a tightly regulated speed control is a great way to achieve it. 

btw, my trial with the SL-1200 had a happy (semi-finished) resolution. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50206.40

Enjoy - John

[SET Man]

Uh oh...didn't mean to start a war- that said, all of this has been very useful.

Just to answer a couple of questions that came up:

Set Man: that is indeed the table I have and I bought it unassembled and had it put together by audio analogique in NYC.  Unless they didn't do so with the proper care (and I have to admit I do wonder even if they specify their expertise in dealing with high end equipment inluding transcriptors) I find that the turntable is fairly noisy.
On quiet passages you can hear the underlying rumble etc- it pretty good on louder music but still I suspect we are far from what a good set-up should be capable of....
Should I have it rechecked?  I assumed that a table from the 70's was bound to fall short vs more modern tables due both both to age and technology.
....

Hey!

    Hmmm... interesting. It is really that bad? Well, every turntable have rumble some are worst than other. But this look like a well respected design back than and have some followers.

    It is a constant rumble/motor noise like a hum?

   I used to run Rega Planar 2 and I didn't notice motor rumble until I mod it and put the motor outside. It was quite an eye and ear opener after that, can't believe that I was listening to motor noise all those years before I modded it.  But even as in stock form it was very low.

   I don't know maybe something is not quite right on your turntable? If it had been a while maybe something need to be change, like silicone or oil?

   By the way... are you happen to be in NYC?

Take care,
Buddy

[pgastone]

Set Man- sorry i missed ur post...i commute to nyc everyday for work so basically yessir, i am in the area.

Btw, I have just posted a new topic- think I am down to the wire on buyinga turnatble (aries 1).....let me know what you all think- details in other post.

[SET Man]

Set Man- sorry i missed ur post...i commute to nyc everyday for work so basically yessir, i am in the area.

Btw, I have just posted a new topic- think I am down to the wire on buyinga turnatble (aries 1).....let me know what you all think- details in other post.

Hey!

    Cool! You should come to the Rave meeting sometime

    There are couples of us NYAR Ravers who have turntable.

Take care,
Buddy

[pgastone]

I would really love to.....and really appreciate the invite....is there an upcoming one scheduled?

[SET Man]

I would really love to.....and really appreciate the invite....is there an upcoming one scheduled?

Hey!

    You should. Sept Rave is coming at Mike/topround's and it will be in NJ. Oh! yes he got turntable in his system. Ironically most Raves are in NJ now.

    We just had one this past Saturday at Jim/Hogg's in CT.

    You could check this in NYAR Circle.

Take care,
Buddy