Ipe Minis - Long Wait Rewarded

groovybassist · « **Reply #40 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 05:25 am »

I've got a question for other Mini owners out there. As you listen to your Mini's, are you hearing little places in songs where there's a bit of distortion? A vocal crescendo or spot where an upright bass hangs for a moment in its upper register? At first I was wondering if I fried a tweeter, so I switched the left and right speaker cables and the distortion follows the switch (a good thing), although it's ever so slightly different between the two speakers - it's a tad more prominent on one vs. the other. I'm beginning to think the distortion is so low on the Minis that it reveals microphonic or other distortions occurring during the recording or mastering process.

A good example is Shelby Lynne - Just a Little Lovin'. In the opening tune (interestingly enough, it's "Just a Little Lovin'"), there's a few points where she hits a vocal crescendo and to me it's obvious there's some distortion at the peak. It happens a couple of times after that and subtly in other tunes on that disc as well. Now that I'm attuned to it, I'm hearing it on some other discs as well, though not all. I'd welcome any thoughts from other Mini or SP Tech owners out there. Thanks!

Bob: Any thoughts or input? Thanks!

Karsten · « **Reply #41 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 07:45 am »

Quote from: groovybassist on 24 Jul 2008, 05:25 am

I've got a question for other Mini owners out there. As you listen to your Mini's, are you hearing little places in songs where there's a bit of distortion? A vocal crescendo or spot where an upright bass hangs for a moment in its upper register? At first I was wondering if I fried a tweeter, so I switched the left and right speaker cables and the distortion follows the switch (a good thing), although it's ever so slightly different between the two speakers - it's a tad more prominent on one vs. the other. I'm beginning to think the distortion is so low on the Minis that it reveals microphonic or other distortions occurring during the recording or mastering process.

A good example is Shelby Lynne - Just a Little Lovin'. In the opening tune (interestingly enough, it's "Just a Little Lovin'"), there's a few points where she hits a vocal crescendo and to me it's obvious there's some distortion at the peak. It happens a couple of times after that and subtly in other tunes on that disc as well. Now that I'm attuned to it, I'm hearing it on some other discs as well, though not all. I'd welcome any thoughts from other Mini or SP Tech owners out there. Thanks!

Bob: Any thoughts or input? Thanks!

groovybassist, I have had this issue here as well. In my case it was related to the digital transport. After abandoning USB audio and using the AES/EBU output from an RME HDSP 9632 sound card, the sound is silky smooth.

Regards,
Karsten

IronLion · « **Reply #42 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 12:26 pm »

I've heard the type of distortion you're referring to on my old speakers as well as my new Minis, but its definitely more noticeable on the Minis.

Double Ugly · « **Reply #43 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 01:17 pm »

I'm sure Bob will have input, but I've heard it, too.

All I'll say is I wish most mixing/mastering professionals used SP Tech speakers.

mcullinan · « **Reply #44 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 01:23 pm »

Quote from: IronLion on 24 Jul 2008, 12:26 pm

I've heard the type of distortion you're referring to on my old speakers as well as my new Minis, but its definitely more noticeable on the Minis.

Funny... I noticed it too. What do you think it is? I heard it during some horns/ John Coltrane.. I thought it might be the fact that I am using the DAC in the Squeezebox instead of an external and its just not that clean of a signal/distortion from the DAC. I know horns have a breath sound reed sound too them, but this is something in the farther background.

Let me ask the question, is it repeatable on the same passage and at the same point in the recording? I did not try this, so if anyone can. Then I would just say that they are that revealing of the source material.
Mike

BobM · « **Reply #45 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 01:43 pm »

Quote from: mcullinan on 24 Jul 2008, 01:23 pm

Quote from: IronLion on 24 Jul 2008, 12:26 pm
I've heard the type of distortion you're referring to on my old speakers as well as my new Minis, but its definitely more noticeable on the Minis.
Funny... I noticed it too. What do you think it is? I heard it during some horns/ John Coltrane.. I thought it might be the fact that I am using the DAC in the Squeezebox instead of an external and its just not that clean of a signal/distortion from the DAC. I know horns have a breath sound reed sound too them, but this is something in the farther background.

Let me ask the question, is it repeatable on the same passage and at the same point in the recording? I did not try this, so if anyone can. Then I would just say that they are that revealing of the source material.
Mike

I heard a distortion on the 2.0's when playing solo piano. It was not noticeable on anything else, but piano tends to bring out those resonances. Perhaps the tweeter on Chris's pair has a slightly misaligned voice coil. At least I have experienced that problem before and it sounds the same to me.

I did not notice the same issue on the mini's in my system, and I checked it the same way with the same pieces.

Bob

Aether Audio · « **Reply #46 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 01:53 pm »

Gentlemen,

Welcome to the recording world!

Oh... didn't know you signed up for the job?

Well, maybe you didn't but the fact is that now you DO have better tools than most recording engineers, so on some level you qualify.

groovybassist et.al... you're gonna hear stuff from time to time that you'll swear is the tweeter distorting and/or make you think its damaged. There's a segment on a Diana Krall recording where a distorted electric guitar comes in...mellow - not heavy metal type... and the first time I heard it, it scared the crap out of me. Sounded just like the tweeter was fried. After much experimentation and finally turning the signal way down while putting my ear right up to the tweeter, I could tell it had to be in the recording.

Actually, I've heard pianos clip mic preamps/mixing console stages and various other line-level overload events before that, but that guitar was the worst. As you listen you'll hear all sorts of that crap. Engineers are usually in a hurry and transients pop up big enough to clip a gain stage setting every so often. They just can't anticipate every peak event when they set their gain levels. So...every once in a while the signal hits the rails and a nasty little sound results. Of course THEIR speakers are much more resolving than yours so unless its really bad... "when in doubt-ship it out." "They'll never hear it"... is the motto.

I'm pretty sure that most engineers are hoping that consumers of their products don't have speakers as good as SP Tech stuff. I'm also pretty sure that if they were smart they'd want a pair for themselves

Finally. I would think it a bit embarrassing to know that "ignorant," "novice" consumers know more about their recordings than they do.

Have fun guys!

-Bob

PS. Karsten's observations are valid too and he's proven you can go a long way in cleaning some of that stuff up. I wouldn't be surprised if that the rise-times of certain signals are so fast that they're causing some sort of "slew induced" distortion in the downstream electronics. Then of course, you could all finally be hearing what amplifier clipping really sounds like when it's not severe. That is very likely the case and I can easily hear it when I push stuff at the shop hard enough to tickle the amp's voltage limits. One of those or something else may be at work, but I can assure you that there are also plenty of "boo-boos" on most recordings that you will now easily hear. Maybe Russell Dawkins or MIXSIT will chime in here and put their 2 cents worth in. They'll tell ya.

RodMCV · « **Reply #47 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 02:07 pm »

Is this where more power comes in?
Not just any big watts but fast clean and lots of headroom!

mcullinan · « **Reply #48 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 02:12 pm »

Quote from: RodMCV on 24 Jul 2008, 02:07 pm

Is this where more power comes in?
Not just any big watts but fast clean and lots of headroom!

No. The amps arent clipping or near clipping. Also my Nuforce 9 SE v2 are lightning fast, and the SP Tech minis are also uber fast.
Mike

RodMCV · « **Reply #49 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 02:24 pm »

Whats the head room on the nuForce Amp?
Also from what you are describing the musical passage is not too demanding, is that right?
Is there a common frequency where you hear it and does it vary with the volume??

Goosepond · « **Reply #50 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 02:25 pm »

Gee, Bob. That's awfully discouraging. Does that mean I have to throw away all my CD's and go out and buy all new, perfectly recorded ones?

No one mentioned that when I bought into this.

Oh, well.

Anyone interested in a lot of free CD's?

Gene

groovybassist · « **Reply #51 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 02:42 pm »

I hear the distortion on my Mini's when the volume is low, so I don't think it's my amp clipping. I'm using a Naim CD5x, so I don't think my source is the issue either - it's super clean on other recordings - I think it's just serving up what's on the disc. I tried playing a signal sweep from a test disc and don't hear anything, so I guess all this stuff is in the recording. Amazing!

Bob: I think your explanation of clipping during peaks at the recording event makes the most sense to me. The engineer may not even catch it at the time and even if they did, they may not have the opportunity to go back and re-record. Miking of individual instruments may explain why I hear it on upright bass as well as female vocals - gain settings for each may not accommodate their dynamic range, while their frequency ranges are very different. Too bad CDs get put out with this stuff on it. Every time I put in a new CD and it happens, it makes me wonder for a moment if something's up with the system!

Thanks everyone for your feedback.

-Mike

RodMCV · « **Reply #52 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 02:44 pm »

most excellent Sherlock!

Aether Audio · « **Reply #53 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 04:58 pm »

Goosepond,

Quote

Gee, Bob. That's awfully discouraging. Does that mean I have to throw away all my CD's and go out and buy all new, perfectly recorded ones?

No one mentioned that when I bought into this.

Oh, well.

Anyone interested in a lot of free CD's?

Gene

I think you've already relieved your own anxieties.

Quote

I'm happy to say my 15 year-old Sony amp just keeps sounding better and better ever since I hooked it up to a pair of Bob's mini's.

How's that for a positive review.

If the issue of "poor" recordings were really an "issue," then you wouldn't have been able to make the statement above. The fact is that ALL recordings have imperfections - even the "best." There is no "perfect" recording... period. Yes, you will hear the imperfections more easily, but they will still be "couched" within the context of their inherent musicality such that they should not prevent you from enjoying your music collection. It's sort of like the background "hiss" that was always present on tape recordings or the "crackles and pops" in vinyl. People enjoyed those mediums for years (and still do) despite those artifacts. In the case of digital recordings/CDs (assuming that you prefer them to the older analog mediums to begin with), any such recording process/engineering "boo-boos"/artifacts will be at least an order of magnitude less annoying than those of the older mediums. So... relax and just... enjoy the music!

-Bob

Goosepond · « **Reply #54 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 05:14 pm »

Ahhhh! Thanks Bob.

I've decided to keep all my CD's and just listen to them, warts and all.

Now where to put those new CD's that I'm going to have to buy, searching for that perfect recording.

I think it's a communist plot to take all of our money.

Gene

Double Ugly · « **Reply #55 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 05:22 pm »

Quote from: groovybassist on 24 Jul 2008, 02:42 pm

Too bad CDs get put out with this stuff on it. Every time I put in a new CD and it happens, it makes me wonder for a moment if something's up with the system!

I used to be that way, too, but now I actually enjoy hearing the mistakes. I'm very appreciative of having speakers equally capable of highlighting the miscues and still producing toe-tapping music vs. a gathering of individual notes and chords (like most hyper-revealing speakers IME).

I'd never had it before, and though I've never been a mixing/mastering professional, I would miss hearing so deeply into the recording. For me, it's one of those "once you have it, there's no going back" kinda things.

Aether Audio · « **Reply #56 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 05:30 pm »

mcullinan,

Quote

No. The amps arent clipping or near clipping.

Are you certain? Not to be a "smart-ass," but from a technical standpoint there are only two ways to be absolutely certain. The easiest is for your amp to have some sort of "clip" indicators built in. The best example of this was the "IOC" (Input/Output comparator) used in Crown amps. Those puppies told you everything. Not only did they indicate actual clipping, but any other form of distortion wherein the output did not exactly match the input - things like slew-induced distortion and such. But alas... most audiophile companies don't provide them. I could be wrong, but I doubt that its due to the extra cost because it is very cheap to implement. Rather... I suspect they really don't want you to know. If every company did, many of the smaller powered amps would fall out of vogue overnight.

The other way to catch clipping is to use a digital storage oscilloscope and monitor every transient burst. You might need a few lifetimes to complete the job though.

If you read the Spectron article posting that I made and do the math, you'll see what I mean. A quick example is as follows:

The Minis are 87dB @ 1W/1M sensitivity each. If you sit 3 meters away then one watt will produce an SPL of 75dB at your listening position. To play at a relatively modest level of 85dB at the seating position you will then need 10 watts per channel. Then suppose a 10dB peak comes along. Now you need 100 watts to keep from clipping. But... what if it's a 13dB peak? Now you need 200 watts to keep from clipping. The NuForces don't have that much output into 8-ohms and I'll bet they won't even reach their spec with a full 500mS burst. Add to that, peaks as high as 20dB can occur on many of your better audiophile recordings. Were you amp asked to reproduce one of those you'd need 1,000 watts!

Maybe you don't listen that loud or you sit closer, but even if either of those are true you can still clip the amp quite easily. Most of the time you never realize it... unless you just happen to have a speaker that is revealing enough to let you know.

I don't mean to be "nit picking" - just like to share the info is all. The more you know... aa

-Bob

mcullinan · « **Reply #57 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 05:35 pm »

Definitely, these are some very musical speakers! I wish I could lock my wife/kids in the basement (like they do to me!) to get some more intimate face time with the beloved SP Tech minis... They will have to leave early next week to become anothers guest

But wallah a new pair show up soon!!! After hearing the minis on my own system Im supersoaker stoked to listen more.
Mike

Ps. So you are suggesting I need a more powerful amp? Maybe a Spectron? idk...

RodMCV · « **Reply #58 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 05:39 pm »

I have been a long time believer (as a muscian) that the essence of the alive and real feel of music
is in the micro-transients of tone, harmonics, dynamics, etc.

This is what conveys the human touch on the voice or instrument.

And this is what is so demanding on the reproduction equipment; each link in the chain.

Double Ugly · « **Reply #59 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 05:55 pm »

An "issue" with SP Tech speakers which a reviewer warned me about is that it's waaaaaaaay too easy to listen at a much higher volume than you might think. Their super low distortion sort of hides (to me) the normal volume cues, so be careful.

Purchasing a inexpensive (but relatively accurate) SPL meter may help preserve your hearing.

Now then, back to those beautiful Ipe Minis...