SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH

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splittailz

SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« on: 22 Jul 2008, 03:41 pm »
hello all, I am seeking your opinions on speaker cable length. whether a short cable with a monoblock amp close to speaker, or a longer cable like 4 meter, no matter how far the speaker is from the amp. A major cable company I spoke to insists that the optimum length for their speaker cables is 4 meters. that 4 meters seem to sound the best. any and all of your opinions are welcome on this.

thanks in advance for the input

James Tanner

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #1 on: 22 Jul 2008, 03:55 pm »
hello all, I am seeking your opinions on speaker cable length. whether a short cable with a monoblock amp close to speaker, or a longer cable like 4 meter, no matter how far the speaker is from the amp. A major cable company I spoke to insists that the optimum length for their speaker cables is 4 meters. that 4 meters seem to sound the best. any and all of your opinions are welcome on this.

thanks in advance for the input

Hi,

What is is about 4 meters that is so significant to performance?

james

splittailz

Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #2 on: 22 Jul 2008, 05:16 pm »
hello all, I am seeking your opinions on speaker cable length. whether a short cable with a monoblock amp close to speaker, or a longer cable like 4 meter, no matter how far the speaker is from the amp. A major cable company I spoke to insists that the optimum length for their speaker cables is 4 meters. that 4 meters seem to sound the best. any and all of your opinions are welcome on this.

thanks in advance for the input

Hi,

What is is about 4 meters that is so significant to performance?

james

I have no idea, as far as I am concerned I see no reason for speaker cables longer than they need to be. but I do like the same length cable on the mains and center for HT. I have read that speaker cables need to be 8' or better. called a major cable company this morning and they say their 4 meter cables sound best. just trying to figure out if there is any merit to this.

Daryl

Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #3 on: 22 Jul 2008, 06:05 pm »
This 'Major Cable Company' has helped you with your shopping.

You need not ever consider buying anything from them.

As a cable gets shorter the input/output voltage differential will become less.


splittailz

Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #4 on: 22 Jul 2008, 06:24 pm »
thats what I would say. shorter cable = less resistance= more power thru it.

splittailz

Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #5 on: 22 Jul 2008, 06:33 pm »
even the inexpensive cables, Mapleshade Golden Helix for example, reccommend 8' minimum.
and at 85.00 a pair for 8' cables, maybe the extra 40.00 they would gross from the sale would not mean much. and 40.00 is not really going to make or break anyone in this hobby.
there has to be some reason. I can see the expensive cables at 100.00 plus per foot wanting to add an extra length to the sale, but at 85.00 a pair doesn't make much sense.

James Tanner

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #6 on: 22 Jul 2008, 06:54 pm »
even the inexpensive cables, Mapleshade Golden Helix for example, reccommend 8' minimum.
and at 85.00 a pair for 8' cables, maybe the extra 40.00 they would gross from the sale would not mean much. and 40.00 is not really going to make or break anyone in this hobby.
there has to be some reason. I can see the expensive cables at 100.00 plus per foot wanting to add an extra length to the sale, but at 85.00 a pair doesn't make much sense.

Hi,

The only thing I can think of is that given the specific electrical characteristics of the cable they may want to make sure the average output stage in most amps will not run into problems? So an 8 foot length 'loads' the average amplifier/speaker combination in a predictable way.

james

niels

Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #7 on: 22 Jul 2008, 10:05 pm »
I wonder why active speakers sound good then....
You can always solder the amps output to the speaker terminals.

Ericus Rex

Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #8 on: 22 Jul 2008, 10:21 pm »

Quote

Hi,

The only thing I can think of is that given the specific electrical characteristics of the cable they may want to make sure the average output stage in most amps will not run into problems? So an 8 foot length 'loads' the average amplifier/speaker combination in a predictable way.

james




Then there is a flaw in their design philosophy.  Those characteristics should be tailored around a 10' pair, I'd say.  Go with another company....
« Last Edit: 23 Jul 2008, 12:09 pm by Ericus Rex »

Daryl

Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #9 on: 22 Jul 2008, 10:32 pm »
even the inexpensive cables, Mapleshade Golden Helix for example, reccommend 8' minimum.
and at 85.00 a pair for 8' cables, maybe the extra 40.00 they would gross from the sale would not mean much. and 40.00 is not really going to make or break anyone in this hobby.
there has to be some reason. I can see the expensive cables at 100.00 plus per foot wanting to add an extra length to the sale, but at 85.00 a pair doesn't make much sense.

Hi,

The only thing I can think of is that given the specific electrical characteristics of the cable they may want to make sure the average output stage in most amps will not run into problems? So an 8 foot length 'loads' the average amplifier/speaker combination in a predictable way.

james

Not at all,

If the cable length is zero then the load seen by the amplifier is simply that of the speaker.

As cable length increases additional loop impedance (R and L) will be added causing the speakers impedance to be superimposed upon it's transfer-function.

It is simply a fairy tale and those purporting it can do nothing for you except take your money.

Generic large gauge stranded speaker cable is as good as it gets.

If you want to spend more money and get extreme do something that gives real world results.....
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=45682.0

splittailz

Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #10 on: 23 Jul 2008, 12:11 am »
I have an extra set of 12' speaker cables that are the same as the 4' cables I run on the main 28B's. Let em burn in for a couple months, swap back to the 4' and see what happens. maybe I can even get my friend back down and try the Nordost 4 meter cables I heard on my system last week.
results from this experiment in a few weeks.

KS

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #11 on: 23 Jul 2008, 01:52 am »
As cable length increases additional loop impedance (R and L) will be added causing the speakers impedance to be superimposed upon it's transfer-function.

It is simply a fairy tale and those purporting it can do nothing for you except take your money.

Generic large gauge stranded speaker cable is as good as it gets.

If you want to spend more money and get extreme do something that gives real world results.....
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=45682.0
Inductance of a straight wire (not a coil)
Resistance of wire

Impedance is the sum of resistance, inductance, and capacitance in an AC circuit.  Capacitance is near zero in a pair of wires, so only inductance and resistance matter, and inductance isn't a big deal unless the wire is made with some weird construction.  I'm not sure large gauge is even important unless one is running monstrous power levels.  I've tried #10 stranded wire, #12 stranded silver plated PTFE insulated copper wire, and #20 solid silver plated copper w/PTFE insulation.  I like the skinny stuff a lot, and haven't A/B tested enough to have a preference.  Oh, yes, skin effect...also called radio frequency resistance.  At higher frequencies AC current does travel on the surface of the conductor rather than evenly through the conductor.  This increases resistance because part of the wire (the center) is not being used.  At frequencies above what I can hear, and above what most of us hear, it might make a minor difference.  There are downloadable calculators that show the resistance of a given wire gauge at a given frequency including the skin effect.  Skin effect does not affect inductance nor capacitance.

klao

Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #12 on: 23 Jul 2008, 05:57 am »
I have a 6.5 feet (about 2 meters) pair of Soundstring bi-wired speaker cables.  I asked Len Miller whether I should shorten the cables when I upgrade to monoblock amps, he said it is not really necessary.  However, he would recommend shortening if the cables were originally more than 12 feet long. 

I think what James--correction Jim--wrote in his Bryston articles are scientific & goes well with my common sense.  Robert Harley wrote the same in his books.  You can read the opinions of many cable designers on this topic (and others) from this link:  http://www.positive-feedback.com/archives_interviews.htm .
« Last Edit: 24 Jul 2008, 06:04 am by klao »

avahifi

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #13 on: 23 Jul 2008, 12:09 pm »
Think about it.

Power amplifiers are designed as load driving devices. Preamplifiers are usually not.

Thus the concept of increasing the load on the preamp (a long capacitive interconnect cable) to reduce the load on the power amplifier (a short speaker wire) seems pretty strange.

Will this change the sound?  Probably.  For the better?  Not likely.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

James Tanner

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #14 on: 23 Jul 2008, 03:02 pm »
Hi All,

Here is the text of an article written by Jim Hayward (one of the most scientifically knowledgeable guys I know on cables) that you may find of interest. It appeared in one of our newsletters a few years back.


"The length and resistance of the loud-speaker cable in your audio/video system is very important. In fact, any speaker cable is a compromise and the shorter you make your speaker cable the more accurate the sonic result.

Keeping speaker cables as short as possible is essential for maintaining good (damping) control over the loudspeaker drivers. Music is a dynamic 'transient' (stopping and starting) condition and the better the amplifier can control the motion of the drivers in your loudspeakers the better the performance. The normally extremely low output impedance of the power amplifier will be compromised by any addition of 'series resistance' associated with speaker cables. Therefore, no cables (as in powered speakers) are best followed by keeping the speaker cables as short as possible.

Most loudspeakers have impedance curves which will vary all over the map with frequency but this does not mean that adding a small series resistance due to loudspeaker cable is unimportant. In fact, if you add some small resistance between the amplifier and the speaker, you will create an interesting result. The loudspeaker's frequency response will start to vary directly as its own impedance! The magnitude of this effect increases directly with the magnitude of the series resistance added. So what you can end up with is a frequency response from your speaker which is a direct mirror of the impedance curve of your loudspeaker. This undesirable effect can be minimized with short, low resistance cables and low output impedance amplifiers (no tubes please). The output impedance of any decent modern power amp will be practically zero ohms (Bryston amplifiers are typically .01 ohms). To optimize the damping factor (ratio of speaker impedance over amplifier output impedance plus speaker cable impedance), any resistance between the speaker and the amp is undesirable.

If we had a perfect amp with an output impedance of zero ohms and a perfect speaker cable with a series resistance of zero ohms then the damping factor would be infinite.

Note: In this case the damping factor would be infinite regardless of speaker impedance (something, even if it changes, divided by nothing is always infinity).

At the other extreme, power loss in your speaker cable contributes to audible dynamic compression because: Cable Power loss = Current SQUARED X Resistance of speaker cables. On dynamic peaks, output current can be in the 'tens of amperes'. That squared, times what might seem an insignificant amount of cable resistance can cause significant power loss.

This may explain to some degree why some people hear substantial quality increases in their systems when they bi-wire or tri-wire while others claim little or no improvement. In some cases the extra set of speaker wires would significantly reduce the resistance (and improve the damping factor) between the amplifier and the loudspeakers, especially in long runs. With the advent of multi-channel audio systems utilizing rear/back channels usually positioned 20 to 30 or more feet away from the amplifiers this lack of control becomes a serious issue. The Bryston PowerPac Series of amplifiers are an attempt to minimize this problem by allowing the amplifier to be placed adjacent to each loudspeaker or attached directly to it using long interconnects (preferably balanced).

By the way, the reason that cable length is relatively unimportant for component (Preamp to Amp) interconnects is that the magnitude of signal current in the conductors of interconnect cables is so small the power loss is insignificant.

You must always try to preserve the dynamic integrity of the recording so reducing the resistance of your loudspeaker cable is one giant step it the right direction."
   



DaveC113

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #15 on: 23 Jul 2008, 03:27 pm »
Quote

By the way, the reason that cable length is relatively unimportant for component (Preamp to Amp) interconnects is that the magnitude of signal current in the conductors of interconnect cables is so small the power loss is insignificant.
   

I won't pretend to know what I'm talking about, but that seems like a dubious claim, at best. 

Wind Chaser

Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #16 on: 23 Jul 2008, 03:29 pm »
...that seems like a dubious claim, at best. 

Why?

Charles Calkins

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #17 on: 23 Jul 2008, 03:33 pm »
Very interesting that Jim Hayward would say the length of cable between the Pre and Amp is relatively unimportant. I've always wondered about that. I run mono amps and one interconnect to Amp left channel input is 3' long. The other right channel input is 12' long. Always wondered about the difference in length. Thought that someday I might get another 12 footer to get a match. Guess I won't now. Speaker cables are real short so I'm okay there.

                                                        Cheers
                                                        Charlie

DaveC113

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #18 on: 23 Jul 2008, 03:35 pm »
See my post: "I won't pretend to know what I'm talking about" and Frank's post. In my experience, capacitance in IC cables isn't a good thing. I suppose it all depends on your preamp though...   

avahifi

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #19 on: 23 Jul 2008, 03:58 pm »
Interesting test you can try yourselves.  All you need is a square wave generator and scope.

Calculate the distributed capacitance of a reasonable long interconnect cable, say 20 feet of 30 pF per foot capacitance.  total capacitor value = 600 pF

Now tie a 600 pF capacitor across the output of your preamp and look at the square wave response, either with or without that capacitive load.

I bet you will be busy installing short low capacitance interconnect cables as soon as you see the results.  :)

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

P.S. Of course this only shows the results assuming that your preamp's line section can actually drive the capacitive load without current limiting.  A bit more tough is calculating how much current capacity does it require to drive this load on each AC duty cycle and compare that to the actual current capacity of your preamp's output section (typical tubes or ICs are in the 10 milleamps or less range).  Often the answer will be "tilt".