SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH

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James Tanner

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #20 on: 23 Jul 2008, 04:03 pm »
Hi,

Here is more from the articles Jim wrote for Audio Ideas Guide.

"When you’re dealing with interconnect cables the three major performance issues are Resistance (R), Inductance (L) and Capacitance (C). Because the interface, in the case of an analog audio interconnect is a ‘high impedance’ connection, any issue with resistance and inductance is a moot point with high quality cables (especially at the distances typically used in audio systems). What is very important is the parallel capacitance.

Capacitance, unlike resistance and inductance, can cause serious negative consequences in an audio system. The real culprit in this case is the sources’ output impedance. The cable capacitance is charged and discharged by the signal through the output impedance of the source – usually a preamplifier. Any waveform smearing occurs at a rate that is determined by the mathematical product of output impedance (Z) and parallel capacitance (C) and is independent of signal frequency and amplitude.

This characteristic makes the cable behave like a low-pass filter so the output impedance and input load impedance is very important when connecting your equipment.

This is why it is critical when using tube equipment (which generally has high output impedance) to keep interconnects as short as possible. It is also why using passive volume controls can be a serious problem because the passive control will actually change the frequency response of your system as a function of its position of rotation. So at the 9 o’clock position you have one frequency response and at the 12 o’clock position you have another frequency response. The reason this is happening is because the passive control is changing its output impedance with position and therefore its frequency response. No wonder people sometimes report hearing major differences in cables when using these types of systems.

So the major point here is that cables always have to be viewed as an integral part of a circuit and recognize that what you are hearing from cable to cable is in actuality a frequency response shift as a result of the interaction of the cable with the specific source and the specific load. You are never listening to just the cable.

It is generally agreed, with analog interconnects, that your source impedance should be at least 10 times to 50 times smaller than your load impedance if flat frequency response is the goal. The output impedance of the Bryston BP 25 preamplifier is less than 100 ohms. The input impedance of Bryston amplifiers is typically between 20K and 50K Ohms.

If you want a much more detailed explanation of all the issues discussed above have a look at Jim Hayward’s superb article in Andrew Marshall’s Audio Ideas Guide Magazine (Summer/Fall 1994)."




Wind Chaser

Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #21 on: 23 Jul 2008, 04:05 pm »
My ears don’t care about scopes and square waves.  If a person can’t trust their own ears, they shouldn’t be too concerned about these things as they will hardly make a difference.

avahifi

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #22 on: 23 Jul 2008, 04:17 pm »
Lets see, maybe that is what the thought of the folks at Threshold felt when they eliminated the output inductor on an early series Status amplifier series.  They assumed that the inductance of a normal speaker wire would protect the amplifier from excessive capacitive loads.

However, Polk then introduced their infamous "Cobra Cables" a finely wound multi-strand speaker wire that traded off series inductance for capacitance.  When used with the Status amplifier, you were then directly attaching a rather large capacitor directly across the amplifier outputs, which had no built in defenses against a capacitive load.

What then did trusting their own ears tell them?  Heck, they could just trust their own noses - from the smell of the amplifier as it went into full bore oscillations and melted.  :o

Excess capacitive loads do "hardly make a difference".  Ignoring that is not necessary the best way to get to a more musical audio system.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine


Wind Chaser

Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #23 on: 23 Jul 2008, 04:24 pm »
Polk then introduced their infamous "Cobra Cables"...

That whole incident goes back to the 70's.  And those Polk creature cables were among the very first boutique wires for audio.  There hasn't been a commercial cable like that ever since.

I'll stick to trusting my ears.  8)

James Tanner

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #24 on: 23 Jul 2008, 04:30 pm »
Polk then introduced their infamous "Cobra Cables"...

That whole incident goes back to the 70's.  And those Polk creature cables were among the very first boutique wires for audio.  There hasn't been a commercial cable like that ever since.

I'll stick to trusting my ears.  8)


Aren't the Goertz cables very capacitive?

james

art

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #25 on: 23 Jul 2008, 04:36 pm »
Impedance is the sum of resistance, inductance, and capacitance in an AC circuit.  Capacitance is near zero in a pair of wires, so only inductance and resistance matter, and inductance isn't a big deal unless the wire is made with some weird construction. 

REALLY????????????

Wow, I want to see how you are going to explain this one.

(Hint: inductance and capacitance are inversely proportional to each other.)

Pat

Wind Chaser

Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #26 on: 23 Jul 2008, 04:39 pm »
Aren't the Goetz cables very capacitive?

Don't know.  Tried the flat foil ones about 10 years ago with my ARC gear and didn't care for them.  At that time I also tried some expensive MIT's (with the box attached) and didn't care too much for them either.  

As I recall it seemed to me some cable designers were trying to make a statement based on unique looks and not sound. :roll:

James Tanner

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #27 on: 23 Jul 2008, 04:42 pm »
Aren't the Goetz cables very capacitive?

Don't know.  Tried the flat foil ones about 10 years ago with my ARC gear and didn't care for them.  At that time I also tried some expensive MIT's (with the box attached) and didn't care to much for them either.  

As I recall it seemed to me some cable designers were trying to make a statement based on unique looks and not sound.
 :roll:

Hi Wind Chaser,

I don't want to mis-quote Goertz but I think their take on it is that 'Inductance' is the big issue and most of todays gear does not have much issue with Capacitance.

Anyway as I stated in another post:

From my point of view it is not that I believe power cords and cables don't make a sonic difference.  My position on these kinds of things is that you can not tell a person they do not hear what the claim they hear - all we can do is try to understand as scientifically as possible what could be going on to cause one cable to sound different from another - not to mention whether that difference is a plus or minus.

Being an audiophile myself I know there are many aspects of an audio system that defy common measurements so I am certainly open to all and any input that comes our way.


james

jneutron

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #28 on: 23 Jul 2008, 05:21 pm »
  Skin effect does not affect inductance nor capacitance.
For a parallel wire pair, skin effect does indeed affect the inductance.

Go to the first link you provided.  The equation for inductance is the one Terman described in 1947, it is the equation for a pair of parallel wires, and is comprised of essentially 3 parts..

Part 1 is the log() term, it related the inductance to  the ratio of wire diameter to the wire spacing, so is describing the magnetic energy storage outside the confines of the conductors.

Part 2 is the mu/4 term...this is the skin effect term.  Terman describes this as mu times delta, and delta is a number that is taken from a nomograph...but for DC, the term delta is considered to be .25...this is the /4 part..

Part 3 is a length to width correction factor.  For long lengths of wire, this can be ignored.

Cheers, John

Sonny

Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #29 on: 23 Jul 2008, 05:55 pm »
hello all, I am seeking your opinions on speaker cable length. whether a short cable with a monoblock amp close to speaker, or a longer cable like 4 meter, no matter how far the speaker is from the amp. A major cable company I spoke to insists that the optimum length for their speaker cables is 4 meters. that 4 meters seem to sound the best. any and all of your opinions are welcome on this.

thanks in advance for the input

Hi,

What is is about 4 meters that is so significant to performance?

james


Because 4M costs more than 3 or 2 or 1 meter cables... :thumb:
I actually think that the shorter the cables, any cables (ic or spkr cables) the better...

niels

Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #30 on: 23 Jul 2008, 10:18 pm »
One curious thing when it comes to loudspeaker cable, dont combine an Abrahamsen amplifier (norwegian) with the Xindak speaker cable, for some reason it wont work. The amp gets very hot and shuts down.
An audiophile posted this case on a forum, the cable was sent back, inspected, and found in order....with other cables the amp played fine....weird.

avahifi

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #31 on: 23 Jul 2008, 11:07 pm »
Not weird, just ultrasonic oscillations caused by an excess capacitive load.  Simple.  Happens all the time.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

vegasdave

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #32 on: 24 Jul 2008, 10:07 am »
James, haven't you said that your preamps can drive long interconnects with no problems? And that keeping speaker cables short is the best thing to do?

Just making sure.

James Tanner

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #33 on: 24 Jul 2008, 10:34 am »
James, haven't you said that your preamps can drive long interconnects with no problems? And that keeping speaker cables short is the best thing to do?

Just making sure.

Hi Dave,

Yes that has been our recommendation but its important to understanding that a low impedance source output(preamp) driving a high impedance input (amp) and using low capacitance interconnect cables are important in this type of setup.  Bryston preamps have very low output impedance's and our power amps have high input impedance's. Our RCA and XLR interconnect cables are also very low capacitance cables.

james

P.S.
The connection between your analogue Source components (Preamplifier, CD Player, Tuner, DVD Player etc.) is a 'High Impedance' connection and the interface between your power amplifier and your speakers is a 'Low Impedance' connection. So, the requirements are totally different for optimizing these interfaces.

vegasdave

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #34 on: 24 Jul 2008, 07:29 pm »
That's what I thought. Thanks James. My interconnects from cd to preamp, and preamp to power amp are FM Acoustics P.I.T. Those are 33 ft (preamp to power amp.) From the turntable to the preamp are Technics phono cables. From the amp to the speaker is Belden 10 gauge. 6.5 feet each channel. I'm not sure what the capacitance is for these cables are.  :?

klao

Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #35 on: 25 Jul 2008, 07:25 pm »
James, haven't you said that your preamps can drive long interconnects with no problems? And that keeping speaker cables short is the best thing to do?

Just making sure.

Hi Dave,

Yes that has been our recommendation but its important to understanding that a low impedance source output(preamp) driving a high impedance input (amp) and using low capacitance interconnect cables are important in this type of setup.  Bryston preamps have very low output impedance's and our power amps have high input impedance's. Our RCA and XLR interconnect cables are also very low capacitance cables.

james

P.S.
The connection between your analogue Source components (Preamplifier, CD Player, Tuner, DVD Player etc.) is a 'High Impedance' connection and the interface between your power amplifier and your speakers is a 'Low Impedance' connection. So, the requirements are totally different for optimizing these interfaces.

Hello James,

Pardon for my slow, non-techncal mind.  Some more questions on ICs.

1. Everthing else held constant, shortening which of the IC length is better: (a) from analogue source components to preamp or (b) from preamp to poweramp?

2. Given the lengths in both (a) and (b) above are the same and I have two models of ICs with different capacitance values.  The lower capacitance one should be put in (a) or (b)?

3. What are the capacitance values of Bryston current IC's, RCA & XLR?

Thank you.

James Tanner

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #36 on: 25 Jul 2008, 08:23 pm »
James, haven't you said that your preamps can drive long interconnects with no problems? And that keeping speaker cables short is the best thing to do?

Just making sure.

Hi Dave,

Yes that has been our recommendation but its important to understanding that a low impedance source output(preamp) driving a high impedance input (amp) and using low capacitance interconnect cables are important in this type of setup.  Bryston preamps have very low output impedance's and our power amps have high input impedance's. Our RCA and XLR interconnect cables are also very low capacitance cables.

james

P.S.
The connection between your analogue Source components (Preamplifier, CD Player, Tuner, DVD Player etc.) is a 'High Impedance' connection and the interface between your power amplifier and your speakers is a 'Low Impedance' connection. So, the requirements are totally different for optimizing these interfaces.

Hello James,

Pardon for my slow, non-techncal mind.  Some more questions on ICs.

1. Everthing else held constant, shortening which of the IC length is better: (a) from analogue source components to preamp or (b) from preamp to poweramp?

2. Given the lengths in both (a) and (b) above are the same and I have two models of ICs with different capacitance values.  The lower capacitance one should be put in (a) or (b)?

3. What are the capacitance values of Bryston current IC's, RCA & XLR?

Thank you.

Hi Klao

No pardons needed.

1. Assuming the goal is to place the driving amplifier as close to the speaker as possible then the interconnect between the preamp and the power amp is the first piority in my opinion.

2. B

3. I will check but I believe our RCA is about 12-PF per foot and the XLR is 24-PF per foot.

Be careful though not to get caught up in the 'spec wars'.  Any well designed cable is probably going to work fine in most installations. Understanding how the cable works in a given system and choosing the appropiate cable is far more important than whether cable A has 1/2 the Capacitance of Cable B.

Example - if your using the AES/EBU input or output make sure the cable is 110 ohms impedance.
« Last Edit: 26 Jul 2008, 12:13 pm by James Tanner »

vegasdave

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #37 on: 26 Jul 2008, 02:21 am »
So my cables are ok, then?

James Tanner

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #38 on: 26 Jul 2008, 10:48 am »
So my cables are ok, then?

Yes -relax and enjoy.

james

vegasdave

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Re: SPEAKER CABLE LENGTH
« Reply #39 on: 26 Jul 2008, 11:00 am »
Thank you, I will...