Audiophiles don't trust their own ears

Tyson · « **on:** 22 Jul 2008, 03:29 am »

OK, that's a provocative title, but I think in some cases it's accurate. How many times have you heard someone describe a piece of gear in the exact same terms as one of the big audio review guys in the mags or one of the review sites? It's also the reason I think VMPS speakers haven't really caught on (given their quality) and also the reason why active crossovers and independently adjustable frequency response is simply never going to make much headway. People seem to want to have speaker designer make these decisions for them, and when you ask them to make these judgments and adjustments on their own, they are left grasping for straws. Deciding if a cable is good or sucks, no problem. Tuning a speaker or adjusting it to their room, wtf are you thinking! Seriously.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 Jul 2008, 03:35 am »

I'd say that's true for most people starting out, but eventually you get to the point where you know what your preferences are. Much learning comes by the experience of trial and error. In short, I don't trust anyones ears but my own which are only good up to about 12K...

AliG · « **Reply #2 on:** 22 Jul 2008, 04:11 am »

I got it... only those who like VMPS trust their ears!

Tyson · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Jul 2008, 04:15 am »

Quote from: AliG on 22 Jul 2008, 04:11 am

I got it... only those who like VMPS trust their ears!

You are a smart man.

Orf · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Jul 2008, 04:21 am »

It's maybe not a case of some in the community not trusting our ears, but not trusting our language to express what we're hearing. How to share any experience with others often presents a bit of a hurdle, especially one that is as personally experienced and emotionally based as listening to music.

Tyson · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 Jul 2008, 04:30 am »

Oh, don't get me wrong, I would never level this accusation against the fine audiophiles in the audiocircle community. Clearly they all trust their ears and all never rely on the shorthand of professional reviews. Of course I'm being a little astringent here. In fact, of all the online boards I frequent, I truly think that AC is probably the most impervious to commercial and online reviews. But I still admonish all readers to declare independence (hopefully with better results than Texas) and keep epistemological sovereignty.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 Jul 2008, 04:49 am »

Trusting your ears and knowing what you want out of a system is the mark of someone who is secure in his knowledge of himself. Adjusting your loudspeakers individual driver output to suit yourself by ear without utilizing CLIO,LMS or some other measurement system is merely recipe for gross inaccuracy. A properly designed loudspeaker will have all of its drivers level matched to produce a flat response curve right from the factory. This gives the purchaser an accurate baseline to start with from which room induced tonal or timbrel inaccuracies can be addressed via the appropriate acoustical materials.
Scotty

tanchiro58 · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 Jul 2008, 05:19 am »

After purchasing the speakers or any audio components I usually trust my ears and match my sonic tastes by modifying them.

AliG,

I like your cool avatar!

MaxCast · « **Reply #8 on:** 22 Jul 2008, 10:51 am »

If we could snap our fingers and have a dozen different speakers through our systems I think we all could make more informed decisions. I wish it were that easy. I would love to try a few more different components but time and money does not make that a viable option.

Also, take three pro reviews and gather all the descriptive words used. Now try to write a review with out using any of those words.

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 Jul 2008, 11:35 am »

Good topic! I think you're right Tyson. Imagine if Streophile gave a terrible review of the much lauded 'Brand X' speaker. What would the previously thrilled owners of that component then do? I'd bet half or more would unload them. Who's ears would they have trusted?

Tyson · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Jul 2008, 12:03 pm »

Quote from: MaxCast on 22 Jul 2008, 10:51 am

If we could snap our fingers and have a dozen different speakers through our systems I think we all could make more informed decisions. I wish it were that easy. I would love to try a few more different components but time and money does not make that a viable option.

Also, take three pro reviews and gather all the descriptive words used. Now try to write a review with out using any of those words.

You are a redwings fan and clearly cannot be trusted.

BradJudy · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 Jul 2008, 12:15 pm »

I think there is much more to the fact that most people don't want to (or can't) spend the time to learn how to do it or sit around tweaking. The same it true for most fields where there are hobbyists and everyone else. I bet there are a lot of car people who think it's silly that no one does any car work themselves - they want someone else to pick the parts, tune it, and maintain it. Tons of computer people roll their eyes that everyone wants a pre-built computer with pre-installed software and they never know anything about how to get the most out of it.

Remember, there are extremely few hobbyists who can tweak as readily as you - for most of them the task is both undesirable and daunting.

pardales · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 Jul 2008, 03:28 pm »

I trust my ears. But, it has taken a long time for me to learn what it is I like. I think this is what a lot of this hobby is about, figuring out the sound you enjoy. Much gear has passed in and out of my listening room and if that had not been the case I probably would not have learned what my preferences are.

I also know enough to know much of what I don't know. So I have to trust that others who design and build equipment know what they are doing, and my job is to discern that their values and priorities match my own. I have to trust others because I do not have the knowledge or skill to DIY.

Since I have been an active member of AC, the overall cost of my system has come down and my enjoyment has gone up. I value this website and many of the views expressed by the people and manufactures on it.

ted_b · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 Jul 2008, 04:36 pm »

There has been a lot of discussion, over the years, about audiophiles and music lovers. However, I think Tyson has nailed it here. Audiophiles (and I'm one of them, trying not to be, but it's an addiction) believe that there is a higher standard than "their own ears". They believe that there is a perfection, or set of empiricals, that must be set as a goal, even if their own ears don't agree. It is this reason (perfection) that causes audiophiles to die as audiophiles. It's a goal that can never really be attained. And not because of the obvious, perfection, but because of the reality that there are no real sets of empiricals...except for low distortion and a few simple other necessities. The rest is up to the beholder.

Complicating this goal is the fact that the variables that audiophiles are given to work with are almost limitless. It's like, as a child, on a great family vacation, having your parents take you to your first great restaurant, with all the hoopla of the service and the smells and sights and sounds, and tasting a great dish.......... and trying to replicate it later in life. Too many variables, most of which you'll never hear/smell/see again. But the goal has been set! I sometimes think that all audiophiles became audiophiles cuz they heard a great hifi as a child and are spending the rest of their life trying to replicate that sound. I wish I knew what/where/when mine was. Probably my uncle's place. He had great tastes in music; first place I ever heard real stereo come from anywhere but left and right.

So...the variables...for us... room, hearing ability (changes every year), cables, sources, software, impedance mismatches, tubes, amps, preamps, speaker size, speaker design, crossover design, active/passive, speaker placement, integration w/ or w/out subs, age of components, vibration isolation, ac conditioning, tweeks, listening position, etc. etc.....and the worst of all....the combination thereof.

Music lovers, on the other hand...they have it all. They trust their ears, some of them actually know what real instruments sound like (

), and they are happy with good sound.....gremlins and all. They spend their money on music. I'm that person.....sometimes.

AliG · « **Reply #14 on:** 22 Jul 2008, 04:47 pm »

I got it now...so "music lover" is living a superior live than "audiophile"

Music lover =

Audiophile =

miklorsmith · « **Reply #15 on:** 22 Jul 2008, 04:51 pm »

Wow Ted, that's one of the best posts I've ever read.

Ali - interesting interpretation. I could read Ted's post with completely the opposite conclusion, music lovers are dumb and happy. Intelligence and "higher standards" vs. blissful oblivion.

woodsyi · « **Reply #16 on:** 22 Jul 2008, 05:12 pm »

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 22 Jul 2008, 03:35 am

I'd say that's true for most people starting out, but eventually you get to the point where you know what your preferences are. Much learning comes by the experience of trial and error. In short, I don't trust anyones ears but my own which are only good up to about 12K...

Why can't you hear speakers that cost more than 12k?

pardales · « **Reply #17 on:** 22 Jul 2008, 05:16 pm »

Quote from: miklorsmith on 22 Jul 2008, 04:51 pm

Wow Ted, that's one of the best posts I've ever read.

Ali - interesting interpretation. I could read Ted's post with completely the opposite conclusion, music lovers are dumb and happy. Intelligence and "higher standards" vs. blissful oblivion.

Maybe ignorance really is bliss! I DO love music, but I also love hearing different reproductions/interpretations of it.

nathanm · « **Reply #18 on:** 22 Jul 2008, 05:21 pm »

Advances in medical science will make these problems obsolete. If you don't trust your own ears you will be able to swap them with someone elses'. So if one guy is going on about "It's way too bright!" and you think he's nuts you can swap ears and hopefully reach an understanding. Detachable ears are the wave of the future.

BradJudy · « **Reply #19 on:** 22 Jul 2008, 06:02 pm »

Good post Ted. It goes along with my iPod thoughts. I roll my eyes when audiophiles curse the iPod and compressed music. They seem to have missed the point that a technology that means people listen to music more often and to a greater variety of music is good. If audiophiles want to muck with it to get more sound quality out (which they have been doing over the last couple of years), then great, but the win for music came with making it accessible, not with eeking out the last few percent of SQ (IMO).

Not to mention some of the great side-benefits of readily accessible music like the re-publishing of out of print albums now that it's cost-effective, the ability for ex-pats of all flavors to access music of their homeland when it isn't sold locally, etc. The Internet and the "mp3" world has definitely expanded my music listening scope (almost too much - there's just so much out there to try).

Sorry for the side-track.