[miklorsmith]

Advances in medical science will make these problems obsolete.  If you don't trust your own ears you will be able to swap them with someone elses'.  So if one guy is going on about "It's way too bright!" and you think he's nuts you can swap ears and hopefully reach an understanding.  Detachable ears are the wave of the future.

As with everything Nathan, taken to the extreme.   

Ever manipulated the shape of your fleshy ears while listening?  If you don't believe others hear differently this will convince you.

[ricmon]

There has been a lot of discussion, over the years, about audiophiles and music lovers.  However, I think Tyson has nailed it here.  Audiophiles (and I'm one of them, trying not to be, but it's an addiction) believe that there is a higher standard than "their own ears".  They believe that there is a perfection, or set of empiricals, that must be set as a goal, even if their own ears don't agree.  It is this reason (perfection) that causes audiophiles to die as audiophiles.  It's a goal that can never really be attained.  And not because of the obvious, perfection, but because of the reality that there are no real sets of empiricals...except for low distortion and a few simple other necessities.  The rest is up to the beholder.

Complicating this goal is the fact that the variables that audiophiles are given to work with are almost limitless.  It's like, as a child, on a great family vacation, having your parents take you to your first great restaurant, with all the hoopla of the service and the smells and sights and sounds, and tasting a great dish.......... and trying to replicate it later in life.  Too many variables, most of which you'll never hear/smell/see again.  But the goal has been set!  I sometimes think that all audiophiles became audiophiles cuz they heard a great hifi as a child and are spending the rest of their life trying to replicate that sound.  I wish I knew what/where/when mine was.  Probably my uncle's place.  He had great tastes in music; first place I ever heard real stereo come from anywhere but left and right. 

So...the variables...for us...  room, hearing ability (changes every year), cables, sources, software, impedance mismatches, tubes, amps, preamps, speaker size, speaker design, crossover design, active/passive, speaker placement, integration w/ or w/out subs, age of components, vibration isolation, ac conditioning, tweeks, listening position, etc. etc.....and the worst of all....the combination thereof. 

Music lovers, on the other hand...they have it all.  They trust their ears, some of them actually know what real instruments sound like ( ), and they are happy with good sound.....gremlins and all.  They spend their money on music.  I'm that person.....sometimes.   

I've been straddling this fence for far to long and I'm probably in denial about the "audiophile" label.  But I was just fine listing to music (blissful ignorance) until I was not able to listen to music the way I like.  That's when the "audiophile" emerged.  I had to find a amp that let me listen to music the way I like.  So I would say most members of the AC fall into this category.

[ted_b]

Miklorsmith, thanks for the nice comments.

Yes, our ears change relative shape/size/contour as we age.  It's yet another G-D variable!   Oh well, better than the alternative....I'm not a harp fan.

[tanchiro58]

Advances in medical science will make these problems obsolete.  If you don't trust your own ears you will be able to swap them with someone elses'.  So if one guy is going on about "It's way too bright!" and you think he's nuts you can swap ears and hopefully reach an understanding.  Detachable ears are the wave of the future.

As I know listening to music is your brain perception to receive what you like or what you do not like. It is not up to your ears which are the gates to your brain only. It is matter of fact what you like to your music is depending on your sonic tastes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_and_the_brain

http://www.musictherapy.ca/docs/confproc/2002/Dorita%20Berger%20and%20Daniel%20Schnek%20%20Music,%20Brain%20and%20Physiologic%20Function.pdf

[darrenyeats]

Advances in medical science will make these problems obsolete.  If you don't trust your own ears you will be able to swap them with someone elses'.  So if one guy is going on about "It's way too bright!" and you think he's nuts you can swap ears and hopefully reach an understanding.  Detachable ears are the wave of the future.

You've hit on what I think is the most important point: hearing is 10% ears and nerve endings and 90% in the mind. How can a simple vibrating ear drum end in such an amazing experience as hearing? Most of the process is mental - and it's a truly glorious process.

I just addressed this on another forum... If you grok the above then it's clear that people can really hear differently to each other because the 90% is different in each case.

That's why blind testing is so important, because it removes a whole raft of influences on the 90%. Without it, you're hopelessly influenced by all sorts of mental factors which will cause you to hear differently. And I mean REALLY, ACTUALLY hear differently. There is no such thing as "thinking you hear differently". It makes no sense to say something someone hears is just in their head - hearing IS in your head!!!

All we can do is narrow down the influences so our hearing is coloured as little as possible - when we're auditioning equipment. When we're listening with friends we want the opposite (scotch anyone?).

Then there's the other point, take away the secret knowledge and self-image associated with audiophilia and a lot of people wouldn't be interested. A lot of what goes on doesn't make sense except sociologically. There are a lot of parallels to audiophilia: coffee grinder connoisseurs, weight lifting nuts, martial arts fanatics, car modders etc. Within each there are people who want to achieve the best possible and there are people who just enjoy tinkering, arguing, posturing or taking things (many times the wrong things) to extremes almost as a badge of honour. Much of what goes on goes on because people are crazy.
Darren

[BobM]

I mod, and have experimented with lots of things. I think I've been fairly successful in getting to the heart of things and tuning them to my liking. Lets see if I can break down my assessment and experience in this area into a top 10 discussion points:

1) There are several/many types speaker designs (cone, planer, OB, etc.), each one has strengths and weankesses, each one is shooting for "The Goal" of perfect sound, and each one sounds very different from the other.
2) The sound of your own system is most likely your ultimate reference, because you hear it most often, know it intimately, understand some of it's flaws and weaknesses, and use it as a basis of comparison when you hear others.
3) If you're happy with your system and/or don't listen to others or get equipment to try out in yours you are probably unaware of some weknesses that may exist in it. Or put another way, ignorance is bliss.
4) There are 2 or 3 directions to go with any improvement
  - perfect, analytical sound with pristene detail and extension that lets you hear Everything
  - foot tapping, musical enjoyment that gets you into the music more
  - the way the "experts" say they like it
5) The problem with the way the "experts" like it is often a means to an end for them. They are reviewing and need to hear nuances and details that allow them to hear the character of a piece. If you've ever listened to a system this way you will probably have found that it is fatiguing, takes a lot of concentration and is not always for the enjoyment of the music as much as for the sound of the equipment. In other words, the system becomes a tool rather than for musical enjoyment.
6) Every room is different, so don't think that what sounds good in one place is necessarily going to sound the same in another. Reviewers don't have perfect rooms, just like the rest of us.
7) Unless you compare and contrast what you have with something else you can't begin to understand the trade-off's and/or improvements a change can make. Sure, small bookshelves throw a nice soundstage and disappear, but they don't have the full weight of the music behind them and, as nice as they sound, it might not suit your every need.
8 ) The nature of the hobby/neurosis is perfection, which is unachievable. I mean, how many of you couldn't tell live music from amplified music if you entered a room blindfolded? There's a compromise which will suit your needs, but you have to find it or get close enough that you are satisfied. Some never get there, or don't want to, that's why the used marketplace is a thriving enterprise (and a great opportunity for others).
9) Trust only lasts until uncertainty is thrown into the picture. So if you're happy, you will most likely start questioning your happiness after hearing something better/different, or after reading about something better/different. So, the review magazines are a tool of the industry. That doesn't mean they are corrupt, or selling good reviews for ad dollars. No, they do quite enough by inserting uncertainty and the concept of "there's better out there" into your little audiophile mind.
10) We are all compromized ... our ears, our rooms, our wallets, our spouses and SO's, our experiences, our exposure to live music, our likes and dislikes, our hearing, our ability to write long meandering sentences ... To know onesself is more than just an audiophile goal. It is something most strive for all their lives and never achieve. So who thinks they can achieve it in our little hobby either, especially since there are people out there changing the rules, and the tools all the time. The variables are almost infinite, so the experiment is flawed. That doesn't mean you can't have fun or enjoy your systema nd the music it produces. It does mean that you will always be compromizing. So maybe the answer is to relax, have a beverage of choice and spin some disks. Isn't that supposed to sooth the savage beastie?

Enjoy,
Bob

[miklorsmith]

We are all compromized ... our ears, our rooms, our wallets, our spouses and SO's, our experiences, our exposure to live music, our likes and dislikes, our hearing, our ability to write long meandering sentences ... To know onesself is more than just an audiophile goal. It is something most strive for all their lives and never achieve. So who thinks they can achieve it in our little hobby either, especially since there are people out there changing the rules, and the tools all the time. The variables are almost infinite, so the experiment is flawed. That doesn't mean you can't have fun or enjoy your systema nd the music it produces. It does mean that you will always be compromizing. So maybe the answer is to relax, have a beverage of choice and spin some disks. Isn't that supposed to sooth the savage beastie?

Money!

You guys are on fire.

[nathanm]

True tanchiro, but a brain transplant is much more involved.  And you can't do it yourself like you can with detachable ears.  When you unplug your ears you can't hear for a few moments during the change, no big deal.  But if you unzipped your skull and removed your own brain you'd fall over right away.  Not to mention the price difference!

[ted_b]

He's no fun, he fell right over....Firesign Theater

[ted_b]

So maybe the answer is to relax, have a beverage of choice and spin some disks. Isn't that supposed to sooth the savage beastie?

Enjoy,
Bob

BobM, you are my hero.  Drinks for you at RMAF!

[BobM]

So maybe the answer is to relax, have a beverage of choice and spin some disks. Isn't that supposed to sooth the savage beastie?

Enjoy,
Bob

BobM, you are my hero.  Drinks for you at RMAF!

Wish I could make it. Hey, how about a compromize ... buy one for Chris (Lonewolf) instead! 

Bob

[tanchiro58]

True tanchiro, but a brain transplant is much more involved.  And you can't do it yourself like you can with detachable ears.  When you unplug your ears you can't hear for a few moments during the change, no big deal.  But if you unzipped your skull and removed your own brain you'd fall over right away.  Not to mention the price difference!

Good point. Thanks.

[ted_b]

So maybe the answer is to relax, have a beverage of choice and spin some disks. Isn't that supposed to sooth the savage beastie?

Enjoy,
Bob

BobM, you are my hero.  Drinks for you at RMAF!

Wish I could make it. Hey, how about a compromoze ... buy one for Chris (Lonewolf) instead! 

Bob

Sheesh.  Great.  Now I owe Chris like 5 drinks.

[lonewolfny42]

So maybe the answer is to relax, have a beverage of choice and spin some disks. Isn't that supposed to sooth the savage beastie?

Enjoy,
Bob

BobM, you are my hero.  Drinks for you at RMAF!

Wish I could make it. Hey, how about a compromoze ... buy one for Chris (Lonewolf) instead! 

Bob

Sheesh.  Great.  Now I owe Chris like 5 drinks.

Wow...Sounds like I'm going to have a real good time at RMAF - thanks...  

[Zero]

Oh shiz!  I trust my own ears AND I happen to review. Hmmmm that must make me a neutral ! 

[KeithR]

VMPS speakers aren't popular in my opinion because they are pretty ugly and have zero WAF.

Honest.

KR

[JLM]

IME VMPS speakers don't sell better because:

1.  Big B is not a bullsh*ter.  So he avoids advertising and much of the marketing.  IMO his current speakers look plenty good enough for nearly any home.  Most audiophiles have "whatever" furniture (this correlates to having a proper/dedicated room versus shoving speakers into the back corners of the family/living room) but can get spaztic over the finishes of the control knobs on their pre-amp.

2.  I seem to recall that Big B has been burned by reviewers (not so much in the reviews but with the hassle/expense associated with "professional" reviews).  And my guess is he doesn't like being at the mercy of those "professional".

3.  Big B is a better speaker inventor than business man (not a slam).  Many a good inventor have had their company sucked out from under them.  The alternative is to leave what they love and are good at in order to run a bigger business.

4.  Big B would rather stay small and connected to his dealers/customers.  I love these guys that you can talk to.

Personally I like VMPS speakers (some more than others) and after 30+ years of being in and around this stuff am comfortable with my tastes/perspections.

BTW I'd put Frank Van Alstine side by side with Brian.  Both are my role models as I approach highly opinionated, grumpy old man status.   

[JLM]

I fully agree with the importance of the mind over the ear.  Like our eyes, the ears just collect raw data.  While medical research continues, I'm not holding my breath for ear transplants, and I'm quite sure I'd rather keep my own brain.  (I'm sure anyone smarter than me could find a better body to inhabit.   )

The brain must make the interpretation of the facts presented (in reference to preconceived notions).  Muscians have tons of reference points and so need less information to base a conclusion (which instrument, what selection, and all sorts of ancillary facts).  While audiophiles get all geeked out about +/- 3 dB frequency response, I've known conductors who have lived with blown tweeters for years and never noticed.  They just need less of a clue of what is supposed to be played.  Better resolution (fidelity) makes the listener's job easier and enjoyable for audiophiles as more data is provided.  OTOH omission of data allows for more relaxed, casual listening.

Of course there are dozens/hundreds of factors can affect what we hear.  For the audiophile, the brain can also bias what we hear by knowing what kind of listening environment, signal processing, amplification, cabling, etc. are involved.

[Canyoneagle]

So maybe the answer is to relax, have a beverage of choice and spin some disks. Isn't that supposed to sooth the savage beastie?

Enjoy,
Bob

Like the Offspring ref!

Interesting topic, and great discussion.

I've been guilty of reading a review, then "trying to hear" what the reviewer has written about when given the opportunity to demo the gear.

In the past few years, I've become less inclined to care about what others think (except to help determine if the item might be something with chraracteristics I'd enjoy demoing.)
These days, I find myself simply listening to music, and marveling at the quality of the sound (music) that is filling my room.  I enjoy the transition that can happen from the mental to emotional, as the involvement/experiental aspect kicks in.  To me, this is the essence of it.  I've had this experience listening to car radios, jamboxes, and the folding turntable that started it all for me in the early 70's.

Viva la musica!

Warmly,
Michael

[PhilNYC]

That's why blind testing is so important, because it removes a whole raft of influences on the 90%. Without it, you're hopelessly influenced by all sorts of mental factors which will cause you to hear differently. And I mean REALLY, ACTUALLY hear differently. There is no such thing as "thinking you hear differently". It makes no sense to say something someone hears is just in their head - hearing IS in your head!!!

One argument I've heard against blind testing is that it actually *adds* a mental influence on the listener...that there is added stress of trying to determine differences and a fear of being wrong...