HD Music Downloads.

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James Tanner

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HD Music Downloads.
« on: 11 Jul 2008, 11:56 am »
Hi All,

Now that I have my BDA-1 External DAC at home I was thinking it would be nice to start experimenting with HD downloads.  EX: http://www.hdtracks.com/

Are there any recommendations for a Music Server,  Computer etc. that I would use strictly for storing my high-res music downloads and out-putting the digital bit stream to the Bryston DAC? 

Also any music download sites that you have found exceptional?

james

Sasha

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Re: HD Music Downloads.
« Reply #1 on: 11 Jul 2008, 01:51 pm »
James,

I have not come across a commercial offering for PC based transport / music server (however you want to call it) built as uncompromised (as much as possible) digital source, so I built my own around Zalman fanless case (heatsinks used for CPU and PSU) and Lynx sound card.
I presently use Lynx L22 that supports up to 24/96, reason for this model was that it has analog outs as well, I wanted to experiment with it.
For 24/192 digital source only (no analog out) Lynx AES16 is the best option.
I used fanless case not for reasons of fan audibility, but to have as little power pollution as possible (the less spinning motors the better).
For the same reason I disabled all HW (interfaces, controllers) and OS components (services, features) not essential for playback and digital output, so that the OS footprint is as small as possible, with as little power consumption as possible, with objective to maximize stability / minimize ripple on PSU voltage and provide as clean power to soundcard as possible from switching PSU.
Used separate SATA HDs for OS and storage of wave files.
You are welcome to borrow and audition it, I have not been listening to music lately, I am in transition.

ted_b

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Re: HD Music Downloads.
« Reply #2 on: 11 Jul 2008, 02:13 pm »
There's a whole Circle about this (Discless Circle).
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=133.0

James Tanner

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Re: HD Music Downloads.
« Reply #3 on: 11 Jul 2008, 04:57 pm »
There's a whole Circle about this (Discless Circle).
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=133.0

Thanks for the tip.

james

James Tanner

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Re: HD Music Downloads.
« Reply #4 on: 11 Jul 2008, 05:00 pm »
James,

I have not come across a commercial offering for PC based transport / music server (however you want to call it) built as uncompromised (as much as possible) digital source, so I built my own around Zalman fanless case (heatsinks used for CPU and PSU) and Lynx sound card.
I presently use Lynx L22 that supports up to 24/96, reason for this model was that it has analog outs as well, I wanted to experiment with it.
For 24/192 digital source only (no analog out) Lynx AES16 is the best option.
I used fanless case not for reasons of fan audibility, but to have as little power pollution as possible (the less spinning motors the better).
For the same reason I disabled all HW (interfaces, controllers) and OS components (services, features) not essential for playback and digital output, so that the OS footprint is as small as possible, with as little power consumption as possible, with objective to maximize stability / minimize ripple on PSU voltage and provide as clean power to soundcard as possible from switching PSU.
Used separate SATA HDs for OS and storage of wave files.
You are welcome to borrow and audition it, I have not been listening to music lately, I am in transition.


Hi Sasha,

Yes I have heard a lot about trying to prevent power supply etc. and other 'polution' from affecting the quality of the recording.

Do you think it makes sense to use a laptop (battery operated) at least during the recording. Are there laptops that will supply a hi-res output on COAX or Optical?  I heard some MAC laptops will output 96/24 on optical. Not sure what resolution they can record at?

james

Sasha

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Re: HD Music Downloads.
« Reply #5 on: 11 Jul 2008, 05:48 pm »
James,

I have not tried laptop simply because I wanted to use digital output on a soundcard that is considered almost unanimously the best one, with lowest measured jitter, and that is Lynx, so I was limited to PCI bus and thus standard PC.
Also, I did not subjectivity measure the impact of each step on the way to dedicated PC transport, I made a single leap from a multi-purpose PC to a dedicated and tuned up PC, using the same card and software player, and I can say with certainty that cumulative effects are very noticeable, the same card/software player feeding an external DAC sounds significantly better in dedicated and tuned up PC.
To sum up differences, multi-purpose PC resulted in less impactful, softer and diffused sound.
In regard to Coax/optical performance, Lynx does not offer optical interface, but my experience with all the transports/DACs I have tried in the past that featured both was that the optical was always inferior to either SPDIF or AES/EBU.
For all these reasons I am skeptical about using laptop with some embedded sound card, if the objective is to try to match or surpass performance of good optical transports.
And I did not pay too much attention to those solutions that use USB.
I have seen that for recordings some professionals use Lynx card in Lynx supported external PCI bus enclosure connected to notebook via PCI interface card, but I found this solution to be too expensive, the only gain seemed to be mobility which played no role in my case for digital playback.

James Tanner

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Re: HD Music Downloads.
« Reply #6 on: 11 Jul 2008, 06:16 pm »
James,

I have not tried laptop simply because I wanted to use digital output on a soundcard that is considered almost unanimously the best one, with lowest measured jitter, and that is Lynx, so I was limited to PCI bus and thus standard PC.
Also, I did not subjectivity measure the impact of each step on the way to dedicated PC transport, I made a single leap from a multi-purpose PC to a dedicated and tuned up PC, using the same card and software player, and I can say with certainty that cumulative effects are very noticeable, the same card/software player feeding an external DAC sounds significantly better in dedicated and tuned up PC.
To sum up differences, multi-purpose PC resulted in less impactful, softer and diffused sound.
In regard to Coax/optical performance, Lynx does not offer optical interface, but my experience with all the transports/DACs I have tried in the past that featured both was that the optical was always inferior to either SPDIF or AES/EBU.
For all these reasons I am skeptical about using laptop with some embedded sound card, if the objective is to try to match or surpass performance of good optical transports.
And I did not pay too much attention to those solutions that use USB.
I have seen that for recordings some professionals use Lynx card in Lynx supported external PCI bus enclosure connected to notebook via PCI interface card, but I found this solution to be too expensive, the only gain seemed to be mobility which played no role in my case for digital playback.


Thanks for the education -much appreciated.

james

ian.ameline

Re: HD Music Downloads.
« Reply #7 on: 11 Jul 2008, 07:36 pm »
James, I don't know about recording, but all current macs (mini, macbook, macbook pro, mac pro, imac) all output up to 96/24 optical. I wouldn't expect anything outstanding from their internal ADC or DAC circuitry.


mr_bill

Re: HD Music Downloads.
« Reply #8 on: 11 Jul 2008, 07:44 pm »
James,
Check out this month's Ultra Audio for a nice summary by Jeff Fritz.
Your best options are:
1.  Streaming via a Slim Devices SB3, Duet or Transporter
2.  Macbook direct via USB or optical - usually very little trouble - use Itunes.  Don't know about the toslink, if it's any good.
3.  PC laptop - can be another story.  Vista is better than XP - use a music manager.  I really like J River.  I've tried Media Monkey.  Have never tried Foobar.
The BDA has USB input as well as optical inputs so you won't need a converter.
Bill

Sasha

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Re: HD Music Downloads.
« Reply #9 on: 11 Jul 2008, 08:03 pm »
I would consider SB3 one of the worst options.
I owned SB3 with linear regulated PSU in place of walwart.
While in theory it should offer good isolation from PC, as it disassembles TCP packets received on network interface and generates digital signal internally, the problem is that its SPDIF output is of mediocre quality while optical is plain horrible.
Jitter is just too high, any sub $500.00 transport outperforms SB3.
And sinking money into questionable upgrades of SB3 which is nothing more that a little PC gizmo IMO was not an option for me.
In regard to Vista versa XP, I find that XP is far better if the objective is to use professional high quality cards with ASIO support and have the least amount of jitter.

mr_bill

Re: HD Music Downloads.
« Reply #10 on: 11 Jul 2008, 08:20 pm »
I would consider SB3 one of the worst options.
I owned SB3 with linear regulated PSU in place of walwart.
While in theory it should offer good isolation from PC, as it disassembles TCP packets received on network interface and generates digital signal internally, the problem is that its SPDIF output is of mediocre quality while optical is plain horrible.
Jitter is just too high, any sub $500.00 transport outperforms SB3.
And sinking money into questionable upgrades of SB3 which is nothing more that a little PC gizmo IMO was not an option for me.
In regard to Vista versa XP, I find that XP is far better if the objective is to use professional high quality cards with ASIO support and have the least amount of jitter.


Sasha,
Please outline your best solution for HD sound.  I would be interested to hear your ideas and experience as  I am pexploring too and have a Dell laptop and dont want to spring for a macbook - too expensive.  Sounds like a laptop running XP and using a PC card is your best result?  I'm not sure how the PC card works and what type/brand of laptop and PC card did you use?  Can you get a coax ouptup with the PC card and not have to use a converter or did you use USB?
In my trials last year, there was very little difference between SB3 digital output and Sony 7000es digital output into a Benchmark Dac 1.
Thanks,
Bill


KeithA

Re: HD Music Downloads.
« Reply #11 on: 11 Jul 2008, 08:44 pm »
I would consider SB3 one of the worst options.
I owned SB3 with linear regulated PSU in place of walwart.
While in theory it should offer good isolation from PC, as it disassembles TCP packets received on network interface and generates digital signal internally, the problem is that its SPDIF output is of mediocre quality while optical is plain horrible.
Jitter is just too high, any sub $500.00 transport outperforms SB3.
And sinking money into questionable upgrades of SB3 which is nothing more that a little PC gizmo IMO was not an option for me.
In regard to Vista versa XP, I find that XP is far better if the objective is to use professional high quality cards with ASIO support and have the least amount of jitter.


I have to agree with Bill. I own an SB3 and a Duet and have compared them to a transport feeding my SP 1.7. If there is a difference, I can't tell and I surely wouldn't be able to tell blindly. To say that the SPDIF of the SB3/Duet in mediocre quality is certainly unfounded from my experiences. Same as the review/project in UHF Mag where the reviewers built their own 'highly regulated' power supply to replace the switching wall wart. One reviwer actually said they preferrred to wall wart to the 'ramped up' supply, until they compared them one after another again and then conceded that perhaps the 'modded power supply' had an egde. (IMHO, if they are so close that she actually thought the stock power supply was better, the end result of either setup is likely once of 'indifference' between them both).

In the end, all conceded that the SB3 feeding a DAC was so close to their reference player it was scary. I'm thinking if the SB3 appears mediocre at best in any given setup, something else is gone wrong in the chain.

I'm not saying that people are getting big differences, but I've never encountered them and based on that I certainly wouldn't deter someone from giving the SB3/Duet a whirl.

Keith

Sasha

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Re: HD Music Downloads.
« Reply #12 on: 11 Jul 2008, 09:40 pm »
Bill,

As far as I know Lynx does not make PC card interface version, so if you want to use arguably the best sound card with lowest jitter you are stuck with Lynx, meaning standard PC and PCI bus interface (avoid PCI Express).
I am not sure if you are confusing interfaces, by PC card I am referring to what is formerly known as PCMCIA (those credit card size cards you slide into laptop). That is not an option for me for reasons described.
And using ASIO is absolute must, so that eliminates Vista OS (Lynx offers drivers for XP only AFAIK) and all the cards that do not support ASIO.
So I cannot say what PC card that can interface with laptops would be a good choice, for me it was not an option.
Keep in mind that Lynx cards are not inexpensive, and to get best out of it you really need to address to the most possible extent all the nastiness of PC environment (dirty power, lots of RFI/EMI), which again translates into big $.
Just the Lynx card and Zalman case will set you back close to 1.7K if I remember correctly, add motherboard, memory, appropriate hard drives, etc., and you are closing on 3K.
There is no way around it, if you want top performing PC transport.
Price tag goes down as you start making compromises, but so does the performance.
It really depends on what you want to accomplish.
Let’s say you have dilemma between a standard optical transport in 3K range and PC based transport. To keep performance and gain usability of PC, you need to spend the same amount if not more.
USB is out of question for inherent limitations. I want to have a system ready for high resolution material (up to 24/192), standard 16/44.1 is limited and significant leap in performance can be achieved only with higher resolution.
In regard to SB3 digital out performance I can say that Rotel 1072 digital out outperformed SB3 coax into the same DAC by a large margin, very easily distinguished. There was nothing I could do to improve SB3, replacement of walwart did not result in significant improvement.
Why others do not hear differences I cannot say. Ability to distinguish digital source depends on DAC quality, implementation of receiver, clocking, etc., as well as the rest of the system and its resolution.
Point and case, I thought my PC transport was better than any optical transport or single box player as far as 16/44.1 goes, till I compared its performance to Wadia player (PC transport into Wadia digital input versa same material spinning on Wadia).
If I want to take my PC transport a step further, I would most likely need to do reclocking of its digital signal prior to going into DAC.
It all depends on how far you want to go, and what you consider a good performance.
If you are happy with X, disregard anything anyone tells you, it is all ultimately for your listening pleasure and preferences.
Considering that James has some top gear at home to play with, it would be good for him to explore PC transport options that are in line with performance of his toys, so I suggested the Lynx / dedicated PC thing.
How else would someone judge what BDA-1 is capable of if not fed by signal of the lowest possible jitter.

niels

Re: HD Music Downloads.
« Reply #13 on: 11 Jul 2008, 09:55 pm »
You are talking about 24/96, which the SB3 does not support.
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23796&highlight=SB3+24%2F96+digital+output
And an SB3 will probably always be considered "mediocre" since its plastic, has a wallwart and doesnt cost much. Notice that Stereophile didnt hear a difference between the cd played on a Mark Levinson, and the same file streamed wirelessly to the SB3 and digitally ouput to the same Mark Levinson dac.
But, it seems this discussion is more about playing 24/96 than storing and streaming, which I believe was what James asked about. Like Ian said, any Mac will support it, so use that as a storage option. It doesnt have to be fancy at all.
When streaming you dont use your soundcard at all.
James, check out this norwegian site, it has gotten a lot of praise : http://www.2l.no/2L.htm  , see the download section also : http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html
And of course, : http://www.linnrecords.com/linn-downloads.aspx

mr_bill

Re: HD Music Downloads.
« Reply #14 on: 11 Jul 2008, 09:56 pm »
Thanks Keith for sharing the UHF info and thanks to Sasha for elaborating. 
I had my PC cards mixed up.

NewBuyer

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Re: HD Music Downloads.
« Reply #15 on: 12 Jul 2008, 12:40 am »
Hi James,

My own recommendation for your application, from the currently available options, would be to use the Logitech Transporter (approx. $2000) along with just about any old networked PC you might have around your home/office. Especially, you would want to compare your DAC with that of the Transporter - since it is not obvious which would be superior here (note the Transporter does not need to utilize an S/PDIF conversion, so it has a massive conventional advantage over most S/PDIF DAC's regarding jitter and distortion).

I have also been building audiophile music servers for some time now, and can agree with Sasha about the Lynx solution being ideal for that particular approach. While my experience may not reflect all the points mentioned above by Sasha, nevertheless I've learned a thing or two along the way. :)


denjo

Re: HD Music Downloads.
« Reply #16 on: 12 Jul 2008, 12:53 am »

In regard to SB3 digital out performance I can say that Rotel 1072 digital out outperformed SB3 coax into the same DAC by a large margin, very easily distinguished. There was nothing I could do to improve SB3, replacement of walwart did not result in significant improvement.
Why others do not hear differences I cannot say. Ability to distinguish digital source depends on DAC quality, implementation of receiver, clocking, etc., as well as the rest of the system and its resolution.


Sasha
This is interesting! I happen to be in the camp that cannot distinguish between the digital out of a SB3 from that of a DVD player in to the same DAC. EITHER (or BOTH) the quality of your Rotel or the resolution of your hifi system accounts for the differences you hear. BTW, what is your hifi system? As Niels pointed out, Stereophile scribe Larry Greenhill was not able to discern a difference between the digital out of a SB3 and a Krell CDP. You might also want to share with us how you did the A/Bing between these two sources.

Many thanks,

Best Regards
Dennis

Crimson

Re: HD Music Downloads.
« Reply #17 on: 12 Jul 2008, 01:01 am »
James,

The Apple Core circle here deals with Apple/Macs as they pertain to use in an audio system. And yes, the optical ports on current Macs support 24/96 both in and out.

Panelman

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Re: HD Music Downloads.
« Reply #18 on: 12 Jul 2008, 01:02 am »
James,
I output 24/96 from the optical with my MacBook Pro using the free Cog and Tool Player programs. Of course HD Tracks doesn't have 24/96 yet but Linn and AIX do. With the volume set at half I do not get any clipping. I was getting clipping on the AIX and Linn material when the volume was above half on Cog.  I also use Tool Player which  I actually like better than Cog.

The MacBook Pro is very quiet and I do not hear anything with it sitting on my lap or on the ottoman in front of me.  I use a 10 foot optical cable into my Benchmark Pre 1 with no audible degradation. At least I don't hear it.

Sean

Sasha

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Re: HD Music Downloads.
« Reply #19 on: 12 Jul 2008, 01:37 am »
NewBuyer,

Have you had any experience with Transporter, and if so, what was your impression?
I was toying with idea of getting Transporter before taking PC transport path.
And what was your experience with PC?

Denjo,
While Rotel player is nice for its price, it is nothing to write home about, yet the difference was there. Comparison was done by switching SB3 and Rotel as source to SPDIF input on DAC.
SB3 as source resulted in easily noticeable lack of dynamics and some sort of diffused sound, somewhat similar traits observed when I was comparing Lynx in multi-purpose PC and purposely built PC.
There are different manifestations of jitter, those more technically inclined may want to chime in to describe it. Someone may actually like such sound.
Keep in mind there are components that will impart its own character, regardless of cost, and will not let you hear the differences in upstream components, for all I know DACs used in mentioned assessments may fall into this category.
On somewhat related subject, so far the best digital source I have heard from performance/price perspective is BCD-1, it outperforms by a large margin its price bracket siblings.
My system in present state is PMC IB2, Bryston 7B SST, BP26, Wadia 581i SE, and mentioned PC transport.