[jtwrace]

I'm getting ready to build one.  I've been looking at the www.piltron.com & the www.toroid.com balanced transformers.  What are your thoughts if you've built one?  I figured I'd use a 20a fuse on the input side and use 15A Cryo'd Hubbell receptacles.

Here are the link to the exact model:
http://www.plitron.com/shopping/search_new.asp?SearchTerm=8575&Action=Search

http://toroid.com/standard_transformers/balanced_transformers/balanced_transformers.htm
it is the 2000VA model.  BT-2000X

[Roger A. Modjeski]

One thing to keep in mind about toroid's. If there is any DC on your power line the transformer will audibly buzz and the magnetizing current will go up. This is because they have no air gap. EI transformers have an unintentional air gap of about .001 inches. That's all it takes to keep a transformer happy with a volt or two on the line.

If size is not an issue you will do better with a standard EI transformer.

Because I am an inquisitive person I peek inside amplifiers from time to time.  What I note is what once was very rare (toroid power transformers) is now common. They appear in almost all prosound amps which sell at ridiculously low prices compared to high-end amps. They give the maker the advantage of a slim case though is some cases that advantage is not taken. They must have gotten very inexpensive as they became more popular.

Now my question for you and others: What is the fascination with Cryo'd connectors, wire, tubes, etc, etc? How would you know if it was done or not.

[*Scotty*]

Roger, there is no way I know of to tell if a piece of gear has been treated or not. Unless you can perform at least a single blind test on two parts where one of them has been cryo treated and one hasn't you wouldn't be able to quantify the nature of the change. The change that I have heard as a result of cryo treating OPAMPS and other active circuits has been to lower the grunge floor. Many times this grunge was not something that I was aware of until it was gone. A similar effect happens when loudspeaker drivers and passive components are treated although it has not been quite as large a magnitude a change as that seen with active components.
I would say it is kind of like my grandmothers bottle of patent medicine,good for what ails you.
Scotty

[jtwrace]

One thing to keep in mind about toroid's. If there is any DC on your power line the transformer will audibly buzz and the magnetizing current will go up. This is because they have no air gap. EI transformers have an unintentional air gap of about .001 inches. That's all it takes to keep a transformer happy with a volt or two on the line.

If size is not an issue you will do better with a standard EI transformer.

Because I am an inquisitive person I peek inside amplifiers from time to time.  What I note is what once was very rare (toroid power transformers) is now common. They appear in almost all prosound amps which sell at ridiculously low prices compared to high-end amps. They give the maker the advantage of a slim case though is some cases that advantage is not taken. They must have gotten very inexpensive as they became more popular.

Now my question for you and others: What is the fascination with Cryo'd connectors, wire, tubes, etc, etc? How would you know if it was done or not.

That's very interesting about the EI transformer...the strange thing is that the transformer is about $300.  How much is a EI transformer?  The toridal is also ~30lbs.

As far as cryo, it does make a difference as you can read in many threads on this forum.  You will need to trust the person doing it.  For me, I use somebody that does my work parts.  No problems here...

[satfrat]

Now my question for you and others: What is the fascination with Cryo'd connectors, wire, tubes, etc, etc? How would you know if it was done or not.

I can confidently state that there was a day/night difference when I had my BPT BP2.5 balanced power conditioner(w/Plitron tranny ) fully cryoed. Dead quiet background from my system,,, and infact just more of the same when I had my Butler amps and Sunfire processor fully cryoed. How do I know it was actually done by Cryogenics International? Guess I just need to trust my ears and have faith in people. I pretty much relied on that same good faith instinct when I had Ram Labs mod my Music Hall CD-25.

Cheers,
Robin

[Roger A. Modjeski]

Hi,

I hear that cryo treatment is done by the pound and it's not at all expensive if you go to the guy who has the equipment.

If you had your CD player modified by Ram Labs, it must have been some other Ram Labs. I tend to leave others designs alone, it's their work so let it stand on it's own.

[rotcoddam]

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-ACME-2-KVA-GENERAL-PURPOSE-TRANSFORMER-T-2-53012-S_W0QQitemZ260260065592QQihZ016QQcategoryZ4665QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
You can use these too. Just wire them 120v in and 60-0-60 out. I use 4 general purpose trannys. 2 for my main system and 2 for my HT.  Wiring the 120v line to the 240 primary will give you 60-0-60 out on the 240v secondary.

[Roger A. Modjeski]

Scotty,

Don't forget that the other term for patent medicines was "snake oil". As I understand it, these medicines were mostly alcohol which brings me to my favorite treatment. Mix up your favorite cocktail and enjoy it along with your hi-fi. Always makes mine sound better. This is the advice I give freely over the phone.

I also get the question "how long does it take to break in your amp, tubes, etc". I often reply "As long as it takes for the new equipment to break you in".  Seriously, why should we assume that the difference we hear by changing something in our system is all due to the component. Shouldn't we consider that it takes the listener some time to adjust to the new sound.


Seriously, I am amused by manufacturers who include "break in time" as part of the specifications.

[satfrat]

Hi,

I hear that cryo treatment is done by the pound and it's not at all expensive if you go to the guy who has the equipment.

If you had your CD player modified by Ram Labs, it must have been some other Ram Labs. I tend to leave others designs alone, it's their work so let it stand on it's own.

It wasn't done by your personally but it was modded thru your website. It's been too many years for me to give you a name of the modder but it was done thru Music Reference's website at the time.
and I don't know about cheap, it cost me over $1500(shipping inc.) to do my conditioner, processor and 2 Butler amps. On the good side, it was an 8 day turnaround sending them out on a thursday and getting them back the following wednesday. As much as I don't want at admit it, I did have one failure and that was the Music Hall. The whole front end of that korean buult POS was glued together and it simply fell apart as did the Phillips transporter itself. Other than a loss of selling it, I had started to progress to my HTPC as a music source which had really blown away the CDP. But when cryoing components, you really need to know how it's put together before subjecting it to -350 below zero.  

Cheers,
Robin

[Occam]

One thing to keep in mind about toroid's. If there is any DC on your power line the transformer will audibly buzz and the magnetizing current will go up. This is because they have no air gap. EI transformers have an unintentional air gap of about .001 inches. That's all it takes to keep a transformer happy with a volt or two on the line.

This is true, especially as the VA increases, and also with core undersizing. But that is dealt with with a simple[search on] 'dc blocker', 4 diodes and a pair of electrolytics.

If size is not an issue you will do better with a standard EI transformer.

In the best of all possible worlds, this may well be true. Inherently, a toroid has a high bandwidth resulting from high capacitive coupling, which is far from ideal for mains power, but it does have a well contained EM field. But both transformers mentioned by jwtrace have grounded shields between primary and secondary functioning as a capacitive shunt to ground. Similarly, both have bi-filar wound secondaries, which seem to be critical for maximizing the benefits of technical (balanced) power, reactive currents to ground, either leakage or via frequency dependent voltage division, sums ideally to zero
This is not to say that the secondaries of an EI core cannot also be bi-filar wound, and primaries and secondaries can be wound on separate bobbins or shielding can be used. But the only sources would be custom, which makes the available, purpose built toroids quite attractive. If I had my druthers, I have mine wound on an R core.

Because I am an inquisitive person I peek inside amplifiers from time to time.  What I note is what once was very rare (toroid power transformers) is now common. They appear in almost all prosound amps which sell at ridiculously low prices compared to high-end amps. They give the maker the advantage of a slim case though is some cases that advantage is not taken. They must have gotten very inexpensive as they became more popular......

I'll assume your inquisitiveness is recent and you've been avoiding the mainstream sand state like the plague.
Indeed, most transformer manufacturing has moved to either the PRC or India, along with much of our 'high end'. Toroidals have a strong advantage in larger sizes over EIs because they use less steel and copper, and their better EM field allows a more compact implementation.. Its a pity that the minimal cost addition of a grounded shield, is beyond the perceived needs of most audio manufacturers.

FWIW,
Paul

[*Scotty*]

Roger, remember that I said you need at least a single blind test to verify that what you hear is unrelated to the placebo effect.
I have demonstrated to my own satisfaction that cryogenic treatment has a permanent positive result when applied to my gear.
This is at least an easy process to evaluate as to whether it has an effect or not on audio equipment,you might be pleasantly surprised by the results if you tried it.
Scotty

[jtwrace]

One thing to keep in mind about toroid's. If there is any DC on your power line the transformer will audibly buzz and the magnetizing current will go up. This is because they have no air gap. EI transformers have an unintentional air gap of about .001 inches. That's all it takes to keep a transformer happy with a volt or two on the line.

This is true, especially as the VA increases, and also with core undersizing. But that is dealt with with a simple[search on] 'dc blocker', 4 diodes and a pair of electrolytics.

Do I really need to install a DC Blocker?  Never done that before....

[Occam]

No, if it isn't broken, don't fix it....
I was simply pointing out that although the succeptability of (some) toroids to dc on the mains is relatively common, it is usually solved quite easily.

Your choices of purpose built balancing transformers seem good, although I've not had personal experience with the Toroid Corp unit. B-P-T uses purpose built transformers from Plitron. You might also consider units from Equitech -
http://www.equitech.com/products/specials.html

The use of standard toroids with dual 60v secondaries, like the Transcendance balancing conditioner kit, is not particularly recommended as the perfomance generally falls short of a simple, well implemented non-transformer based conditioner. Such transformers lack the shield and the bi-filar wound secondaries.

If you're in the NYC area, you're welcome to borrow/buy cheap any of my EI shielded repurposed transformers, ranging from 1 to 6kva in size. But if you want optimal performance, I'd personally go with a purpose built unit.

Regards,
Paul

[richidoo]

I second the Equitech. It does a great job quieting my system, and does not ruin the tube amp goodness like filters do. The coolest thing is that a single shared 15A outlet feeds it. No special dedicated wiring needed. Sounds much better than the single 20A dedicated line I was using before. It has plenty of outlets, some filtered for digital stuff. But Roger is right, the ginormous toroid does sing. I will try a DC blocker like that made by Channel Island sometime. If that doesn't work, some soundproofing might help.

[satfrat]

It's ashame we couldn't get TurboFC3S to overlook his gun fetish for one moment in order to contribute on a subject that is the main product of his workplace. Without a doubt he'd have something useful to offer on the subject if he'd be willing too. As for using Plitron transformers, their tranny with NBT would be made to order if you can get your hands on one. BPT might have a lock on that design tho, TurboFC3S could offer some insight on that possibly?

Cheers,
Robin

[jtwrace]

What would be the sonic benefit to 240VAC input to 120VAC output in a balanced configuration?