[ted_b]

When I built my music room/HT back in 1987 I used what little HT layout info was available, but didn't think about dedicated 20A lines, unfortunately.    I now plan on having my electrician install one (or multiple) and have a question or two.  I am doing this because i've gotten my system to a level where i think I can squeeze quite a bit of extra performance from my amps (currently McCormack DNA-500 for main amp) and my speakers (4 ohm load SP Tech Revelations).  I have been living these past 21 years with power (well conditioned, of course) from a "not-so-dedicated" 15 amp line that powers three main outlet boxes in my room (there are others in the room, on other lines, but it's irrelevant for this discussion).   I have a boatload of hardware that is plugged into these.  And they aren't right near each other...



Red outlets (double duplex)
Main amp
Synergistic Research MPC's (small wallwarts that power speaker cable dielectrics)

green oultet
n/a currently

blue outlet
Adept Response 12 outlet conditioner, which conditions:
Modwright Transporter
Modwright LS 36.5 Dual Mono preamp
Rega P5 tt power supply
Modwright Denon 3910 universal player and outboard PS
Video tower (processor, blue ray, dvd player, cable box, surround amp)
Center channel amp
Paradigm Servo 15 LFE sub

Problem is two-fold:
1)  After many years and many conditioners/regenerators/etc. I have finally created a very low noise floor with no ground loop hums, etc.  The EP-2050 Waveform corrector and EP-2750 ground filter that were installed at the mains in the basement has done wonders, too.  (Doug Joseph is a great guy, too).  I don't want to ruin that noise floor and precious loss of ground loop hum gremlins by creating a possible problem that 2 separate circuits might create.
2)  Running a 20a from the main "amp" outlet area (red lines) is one thing; doing the remodeling/drywall work that might be required to fish to the other "source" outlets (blue and green) might be quite messy, although I'm planning a total repaint/new carpet/rear room riser remodel job in the fall....so it can be done within reason.  And I have no WAF..God bless her.

I was all set to simply have the front amp dual outlet made into a dedicated 20A only when I spoke with the genius behind Synergistic Research's leading edge foray into quiet musical cabling/conditioners/power cords...Ted Denny.  Ted says creating two lines (one for source stuff, one 20A for amp) could possibly set up a ground differential between the two and bring back gremlins!!  ARGH.  He says, though, that the electrician could try something like driving a stake 8 ft into the ground and tying grounds to that (star grounding?).

Help!!  I don't know any of this stuff...just that I'd like to be able to feed my amps more juice, if needed.  Would a 20A line that feeds all these source and amp components be a major step forward from 15A, or am I better off rolling the dice on the ground differential issue and having two lines (the original 15A for the right wall and a 20A amp line for the front)?  Any opinions are welcome.

[markC]

I'd leave well enough alone, or, if it's reasonably easy to run a truly dedicated single line, I'd do that. Do you really need 20 amps? Has your 15 amp breaker ever tripped?

[KS]

Here are articles on isolated grounding and star isolated grounding:
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_basics_isolated_grounding/
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_demystifying_isolated_grounding/
http://svconline.com/news/avinstall_technical_grounding_theory/

Do you understand the basic home wiring scheme?  There are four wires...two hot, neutral, and ground.  Each hot wire measured to neutral or ground measures about 120 volts.  Measuring across the two hot wires is about 240 volts.  The neutral measured to ground must be zero volts.  The neutral and ground wires are bonded at only two places...in your electrical panel and at the supply transformer on the power pole or on the ground outside.  There is a long ground rod driven into the earth and wired to the ground bus in your home panel.  In your panel the two hot legs (we'll call them L1 and L2) are vertical buses with L1 & L2 on alternating tabs on each side.  Two adjoining circuit breakers will connect to L1 & L2 and provide 240 volts.  You can see this more clearly than I can describe if you look at a power panel in a hardware store.

You would want your audio circuit to come off the hot leg that does not supply your refrigerator, fluorescent lighting, and other things that will generate electrical noise.  An electrician likely can re-arrange things in the panel to provide this.  A quick test for you...a voltmeter connected across the terminal screw for the circuit breaker to your audio system and the terminal screw in the circuit breaker for your refrigerator should measure 240 volts...they are different legs.  If they measure zero volts they are the same leg and in common.

I don't know if it would be an advantage to run two circuits, off the same hot leg, not on the hot leg supplying noise-makers, or if one circuit is fine.  You do not need 40 amps of 120 volt power.  Spend the money elsewhere and install one new circuit.  If you want an isolated ground, hunt around for an electrician that knows what you're talking about.  This is not an item every residential wire-puller will be familiar with.

[mgalusha]

The possibility for creating a ground loop does exist with a circuit to each wall. This is because the length of the runs is different meaning that the resistance of the ground wire will be different and this raising the possibility of current flow between the components if they are connected to each other and to each circuit.

I ran into this very problem when I built my new room. I had 20A circuits put on each wall with two duplexes. Even though they are on the same bus in the breaker box and have their grounds tied together the run to the side wall is about 20ft longer. My sources are on the side wall circuit and the amps on the front wall circuit. I had a low level buzz from the bass amp when I first moved into the room that I had never had before with the same gear.

In my case I was able to put a ground lift switch in the bass amp but this probably isn't practical for most folks. Note my ground lift only lifts the circuit ground, not the safety ground from the chassis.

mike

[MaxCast]

After reading this and another thread, I will be rethinking my wiring in a new room.  I liked the idea of separate circuits for amps, digital, etc....spreading things out across the front wall.  Now looking to do a 4 gang box (20amp)...things are gonna get crowded up there.  I'll probably put another 20 amp circuit up there, just in case it works.

[ted_b]

Do you understand the basic home wiring scheme? 

No I don't, KS, and no offense, but I really don't want to.  I just want good clean power to my stuff.  That's why I asked the basic binary kinds of questions.  If there's not a good yes/no answer, then ok..a little knowledge transfer is called for I guess.  I'm an electrical idiot. 
   

You do not need 40 amps of 120 volt power.  Spend the money elsewhere and install one new circuit.

? That's the conundrum/problem...If I "spend the money" here (ripping drywall and fishing wire to replace original three outlets) I create ONE circuit...if I spend the money elsewhere, as you say, I've created TWO circuits (the original 15A and the new single outlet 20A)!!.  So i'm not sure how to take your recommendation.  It kind of reminds me of the advise "you can't have too much x" .  Does that mean you shouldn't have too much "x" or does it mean that it's impossible to have too much "x"...

The possibility for creating a ground loop does exist with a circuit to each wall. This is because the length of the runs is different meaning that the resistance of the ground wire will be different and this raising the possibility of current flow between the components if they are connected to each other and to each circuit.

Mike, thank you for that.  I think I'll just assume KS's thoughts and yours are on the same issue....spend the money to tie all three outlets to ONE 20A line and be done with it. 

[satfrat]

I would consider running only 1 20a dedicated circuit that would include both your red & blue outlets. I'm thinking the amps would be the first outlet, I would share that duplex with an Alan Maher PE(I do believe you have one?) and use your Audience conditioner at the blue outlet to isolate your remaining components from the amp. Basically all you're looking to do is delete household usage from your system's power circuit. I wouldn't make it any more difficult than that,, especially considering you are already happy with what you now have and not looking to solve issues. Why create any?


Cheers,
Robin

[ted_b]

Thanks for all the feedback.....

[ted_b]

I would consider running only 1 20a dedicated circuit that would include both your red & blue outlets. I'm thinking the amps would be the first outlet, I would share that duplex with an Alan Maher PE(I do believe you have one?) and use your Audience conditioner at the blue outlet to isolate your remaining components from the amp. Basically all you're looking to do is delete household usage from your system's power circuit. I wouldn't make it any more difficult than that,, especially considering you are already happy with what you now have and not looking to solve issues. Why create any?


Cheers,
Robin

Thanks.  That's very clear and very to the point.  I appreciate you "dummying it down" for me.  And yes i do have a PE on the existing 15A but it's at the blue end, assuming it was the first.  Although the red is a double, the darn AR1P conditioner plug-in is built such that it physically blocks all three other outlet positions.  When I have it redone i will turn the newly arrived and uninstalled Wattgate 381 AG's upside down, ground pin oriented up.

Net is that I'll follow Robin, Ted and Mike's ides to do the harder work to make all the outlets on the new 20A wire, and not even dare trying to "short circuit' (sorry) the job ( i.e running only the front wall at 20A).

[jb]

Help!!  I don't know any of this stuff...just that I'd like to be able to feed my amps more juice, if needed.  Would a 20A line that feeds all these source and amp components be a major step forward from 15A, or am I better off rolling the dice on the ground differential issue and having two lines (the original 15A for the right wall and a 20A amp line for the front)?  Any opinions are welcome.

The prevailing audiophile wisdom regarding dedicated power lines is to run one or more 120V/20A lines with individual breakers on one hot leg and put all the major household appliance circuits on the other. The idea is to segregate the pristine audio components from the dirty appliances but all it does is unbalance the breaker panel and reduce the efficiency of the power transfer from the grid. So, how does the audiophile method of segregating the circuits lead to clean power? It doesn’t. While the hot wires are segregated, the neutral wires from all the circuits are tied together on the neutral leg and that is where most of the noise gets transferred from one circuit to the next. The solution is obvious once you think about it. I’ve even seen it mentioned in this circle on several occasions. But because you have expressed your desire to be uninformed, I’ll say no more.

Do you understand the basic home wiring scheme? … If you want an isolated ground, hunt around for an electrician that knows what you're talking about.  This is not an item every residential wire-puller will be familiar with.

Do you understand the basic home wiring scheme? There is good reason for residential wire-pullers to be unfamiliar with 'isolated ground' because not all residential electric codes require metal conduit and metal boxes which are a prerequisite for isolated grounds. If all the outlets are in plastic boxes and the wiring is naked Romex, exactly what are you isolation the ground from?

[satfrat]

Help!!  I don't know any of this stuff...just that I'd like to be able to feed my amps more juice, if needed.  Would a 20A line that feeds all these source and amp components be a major step forward from 15A, or am I better off rolling the dice on the ground differential issue and having two lines (the original 15A for the right wall and a 20A amp line for the front)?  Any opinions are welcome.

The prevailing audiophile wisdom regarding dedicated power lines is to run one or more 120V/20A lines with individual breakers on one hot leg and put all the major household appliance circuits on the other. The idea is to segregate the pristine audio components from the dirty appliances but all it does is unbalance the breaker panel and reduce the efficiency of the power transfer from the grid. So, how does the audiophile method of segregating the circuits lead to clean power? It doesn’t. While the hot wires are segregated, the neutral wires from all the circuits are tied together on the neutral leg and that is where most of the noise gets transferred from one circuit to the next. The solution is obvious once you think about it. I’ve even seen it mentioned in this circle on several occasions. But because you have expressed your desire to be uninformed, I’ll say no more.

Just curious, if you have no intention os offering a solution that you seem to know,,, and Ted has actually stated in his quote "Any opinions are welcome", then why bother saying anything at all. For all you have to say, you are of no help at all.

And I'm not saying I disagree with what you're saying either, i just don't understand why you are unwilling to share your knowledge?? 


Cheers,
Robin

[KS]

Do you understand the basic home wiring scheme? … If you want an isolated ground, hunt around for an electrician that knows what you're talking about.  This is not an item every residential wire-puller will be familiar with.

Do you understand the basic home wiring scheme? There is good reason for residential wire-pullers to be unfamiliar with 'isolated ground' because not all residential electric codes require metal conduit and metal boxes which are a prerequisite for isolated grounds. If all the outlets are in plastic boxes and the wiring is naked Romex, exactly what are you isolation the ground from?

Whoa.  The original poster brought up the idea of different-than-usual grounding, and I just said to find an electrician that knew his stuff.  If that wrong, I erred by recommending that.  I do understand basic home wiring and therefore, again, recommended a more knowledgeable licensed electrician.

[JDUBS]

Do you understand the basic home wiring scheme? … If you want an isolated ground, hunt around for an electrician that knows what you're talking about.  This is not an item every residential wire-puller will be familiar with.

Do you understand the basic home wiring scheme? There is good reason for residential wire-pullers to be unfamiliar with 'isolated ground' because not all residential electric codes require metal conduit and metal boxes which are a prerequisite for isolated grounds. If all the outlets are in plastic boxes and the wiring is naked Romex, exactly what are you isolation the ground from?

Whoa.  The original poster brought up the idea of different-than-usual grounding, and I just said to find an electrician that knew his stuff.  If that wrong, I erred by recommending that.  I do understand basic home wiring and therefore, again, recommended a more knowledgeable licensed electrician.

KS, this is just how jb operates.  Check out his previous posts.

-Jim

[cityjim]

 Ted ,

 
 Run ONE power cable from your breaker box to your equipment . Find the heaviest Romex style wiring you can find . Look for 10 ga. or something impressive .

 Make a circuit diagram of your home wiring . Take note of the noisy items like dimmer switches (get rid of those fast) , refrigerators , fluorescent lighting , cordless phones , class D amplifiers and so on . Isolate your stereo wiring from that noise as much as possible .

 Try to limit the bends while running the wire . Treat it like a garden hose . Keep the bends in a lazy fashion and no 90 degree stuff .

 Get a new 20 amp breaker . I would install a 40 or 50 amp breaker if I KNEW all my equipment had internal fuses for protection . This larger breaker will lower the impedance on the A/C line .

 Do not terminate it in the usual wall outlet fashion . Get a coax cable wall plate and a Dremel tool . Enlarge the hole for the power cable to go through .

Get a 4 or 6 outlet metal outlet box . Upgrade the outlets if you like to Hospital grade or similar . Terminate the outlet box to the power cable . This means you will not have a wall outlet . Then run the cable to your equipment . Get something like this  >  http://www.vhaudio.com/images/vhhotbox.jpg

 There is no need for any power line filtration or other gimmicks . Power conditioners and the like are purely band aids . They are full of caps and junk that increase the impedance on the A/C line . Not to mention fouling up the power correction factor with those capacitors . Same goes for power "keep the signal path short as possible" .



cityjim

[ctviggen]

An isolated ground may be hard to install.  It's a lot easier to pull wire than to run metal conduit and boxes everywhere.  I'm thinking of installing an isolated ground, but I'd take down drywall and have less than a 20 foot run.

[jb]

Note to ted_b: If you don’t know anything about electricity and don’t want to learn, don’t read this post. It will just add to your confusion.

Why do you guys make everything harder than it has to be? As I described, neither dedicated 120v lines nor isolated grounds guarantee isolation from noise generated by other circuits and they most certainly do not isolate the noise created by your own audio equipment. See http://www.equitech.com/articles/overview.html.

As I see it, the ideal way to power your gear is to use a 240v line from the breaker box to the equipment area and one or more balanced transformers, with electrostatic shielding and a bifilar-wound secondary, to step down the voltage to 60-0-60. That way the power transfer is balanced all the way from the utility transformer to your components’ power transformers avoiding all the problems associated with the neutral and ground wires.

If you value the testimony of other audiophiles, see http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?raccs&1054872863&read&3&4&. That installation is excessive but with careful shopping and a little DIY you can achieve at least 99% of the benefit at less than 10% of the cost. I’ve seen a nice Q-in-a-box for about $500 and lower quality transformers cost a lot less.

If you already have a dedicated 120v, most jurisdictions allow 120v lines (hot-neutral-ground) to be converted to 240v (hot-hot-ground). Consult a licensed electrician in your area. Otherwise, just use one or more balanced transformers on any 120v line. It’s better and usually cheaper than adding dedicated lines and you can take it with you when you move.

[ctviggen]

Note to ted_b: If you don’t know anything about electricity and don’t want to learn, don’t read this post. It will just add to your confusion.

Why do you guys make everything harder than it has to be? As I described, neither dedicated 120v lines nor isolated grounds guarantee isolation from noise generated by other circuits and they most certainly do not isolate the noise created by your own audio equipment. See http://www.equitech.com/articles/overview.html.

As I see it, the ideal way to power your gear is to use a 240v line from the breaker box to the equipment area and one or more balanced transformers, with electrostatic shielding and a bifilar-wound secondary, to step down the voltage to 60-0-60. That way the power transfer is balanced all the way from the utility transformer to your components’ power transformers avoiding all the problems associated with the neutral and ground wires.

If you value the testimony of other audiophiles, see http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?raccs&1054872863&read&3&4&. That installation is excessive but with careful shopping and a little DIY you can achieve at least 99% of the benefit at less than 10% of the cost. I’ve seen a nice Q-in-a-box for about $500 and lower quality transformers cost a lot less.

If you already have a dedicated 120v, most jurisdictions allow 120v lines (hot-neutral-ground) to be converted to 240v (hot-hot-ground). Consult a licensed electrician in your area. Otherwise, just use one or more balanced transformers on any 120v line. It’s better and usually cheaper than adding dedicated lines and you can take it with you when you move.

Why the tone?  I disagree with your analysis.  Balanced transformers, while nice, don't stop any noise from entering the system AFTER the transformer. Thus, your argument of the equipment causing noise STILL IS TRUE regardless of the balanced transformer.  Furthermore, I WANT to add a dedicated line because I'm going to take down the ceiling in my HT room to add canned lighting and run wires for a projector.  It's dang easy at that time to add a dedicated line.  Plus, let me know how much it's going to cost for me to add a balanced transformer large enough to power 9 channels of amplification, a DVD player, a receiver, a Squeezebox, a projector, a cable box, a CD player, a Replay, and I can't remember what else.  You're talking a thousand plus dollars for an off-the-shelf solution (I estimate several thousand dollars), whereas we're talking well less than $100 for me to add dedicated line (even an isolated line, should I choose to do that).  (I've already added a dedicated line but will reroute due to taking down the ceiling and rearranging the location of the electronics.)  (And I don't currently have the time to DIY a solution.)

Please stop attacking us for what you think is a good solution.  It may be a good solution for YOU.  It's not a solution for all of us. 

[ctviggen]

For instance, the CHEAPEST model here is $1,000, and that's nowhere near the power I need:

http://www.equitech.com/purchase/prices.html

I'd personally be interested in the 2RQ-EA, which is $3,700.  That's insanely expensive.  Would it work?  Probably.  Could I afford it?  No.

[ted_b]

Gang,
Thanks for all the great information and opinions.  I truly appreciate it, and will report back on what direction I ultimately went with.

JB, I'm not sure what I said to piss you off so much and have that attitude but whatever the hell it was I apologize.   

[jb]

Just curious, if you have no intention os offering a solution that you seem to know,,, and Ted has actually stated in his quote "Any opinions are welcome", then why bother saying anything at all. For all you have to say, you are of no help at all.

And I'm not saying I disagree with what you're saying either, i just don't understand why you are unwilling to share your knowledge?? 

Let me tell you a story. I used to consider myself a serious audiophile. I learned the mantras and performed all the required rituals. When I built my present house I put in a dedicated 120v line because everybody said it would provide a HUGE improvement over a non-dedicated line. I consider myself knowledgeable and handy with electricity but because everybody, including those whose audio judgment and experience I trusted, said so, I didn’t give it any thought.

After I moved in and had my system set up I wondered just how much improvement the dedicated line provided so I plugged my system into a nearby non-dedicated AC line. I heard no difference. I even moved the dedicated line to the adjacent breaker to get on the other side of the incoming AC but there was no difference. I have a couple appliances and fluorescent lights that really mess things up when they are switched on and this did not change regardless of what circuit the audio gear was using.

I am no longer an audiophile because I now think for myself. If you are interested in learning how your equipment works and DIY, the things this Circle is supposed to about, then I think knowing why dedicated lines can’t eliminate interference from other AC circuits in the house and encouraging you to think about how to overcome the problem is more valuable than someone telling you to use 6 AWG wire and 50 amp breakers or some other bit of audiophile nonsense. It seems you all would rather not think but just do what someone else tells you to do. If that’s the case, I don’t belong here.

I disagree with your analysis.  Balanced transformers, while nice, don't stop any noise from entering the system AFTER the transformer. Thus, your argument of the equipment causing noise STILL IS TRUE regardless of the balanced transformer.

I guess you didn't read or didn't understand the reference I provided.

JB, I'm not sure what I said to piss you off so much and have that attitude but whatever the hell it was I apologize.

Do you understand the basic home wiring scheme? 

No I don't, KS, and no offense, but I really don't want to.

I'm not pissed off at you, I'm just incredulous as to why someone who doesn't want to learn about basic electricity would visit a Circle dedicated to

The technical side of audio. How and why our equipment works, construction, and DIY.

My mistake. I now know this Circle is no different than all the other audio forums where DIY means Do/Decide/Design It For Me and not Do/Decide/Design It Yourself.