[Vinnie R.]

All,

As promised, here it is:

http://www.redwineaudio.com/Isabella.html

(You might have to refresh and/or clear cache)

Vinnie

 

Edited: 7/1/2008:

I forgot to mention that we are offering Red Wine Audio Signature 30.2 or 70.2 owners (or those who purchased the "full upgrade" package for their Sig 30 or 70 units) a 10% discount on the Isabella (with any option).  We really appreciate your business and loyalty!  Thanks again, Vinnie

[pbrstreetgang]

Looks good but,

"Our recipe is a purist approach:

    * New-old-stock 16-bit, non-oversampling/non-upsampling D/A chip that implements R-2R conversion
    * No digital filtering
    * Discrete Class A transistor output stage (no opamps)
    * SLA battery powered with dedicated linear voltage regulators for the analog and digital sections"

Isnt the NOS for the DAC mean Non Oversampling or is it really a new old stock dac?

[Vinnie R.]

Hi pbrstreetgang,

The dac is non-oversampling/non-upsampling AND new-old-stock - meaning we are using a chip that is no longer in production, but new (unused) condition. 

-Vinnie

[rlabarre]

Congratulations, Vinnie!

Please clarify, though. I would be new to owning a DAC if I bought the Isabella with the Isabellina DAC module, and until recently I just haven't known or cared much what separates the wheat from the chaff with various designs or why. In anticipation of today's debut, however, I've been reading all that I can -- practically all of it other people's notions of why their DAC designs excel over others. When I compare their commentaries to yours on your product summary today, I have to note that you make no mention of jitter or clocking solutions, which some of your competitors certainly make a big deal of in plugs for their own designs. Yet I expect that jitter minimization at least figures into you have wrought here. Want to provide some explanation -- maybe even point me to links that will help fill in gaps that I obviously have on the subject of jitter and explain why none of us need worry about it from the Isabellina?

Thanks!

[jwes]

Hi Vinnie,

It sounds like maybe the Philips TDA1541 or better yet the TDA1541A (crown, double crown, etc.)?  Or I'm guessing maybe by the web page that will remain a secret?

jwes

 

[nonoise]

I think its the TDA1541 as well. 
Its what I have in my Consonance CD-120 Linear and the implementation is similar to what
Vinnie is doing and what I hear is just fine, thank you.
As for letting the cat out of the bag, proprietary is just that: Vinnie's and Vinnie's alone.
There was a paper written some decades ago by a Japanese chap who theorized that 16 bit
is all you need, provided it is done correctly (the way it is in my CDP and the way that Vinnie
appears to be doing it) and that all that up/oversampling just kills the music.
I think Vinnie is going to have a giant slayer on his hands as he has gone beyond what was
advocated in that paper into the realm of (how would one describe it?) purity.

nonoise

[jwes]

Well, I was just curious - didn't see that it was described as proprietary.  It just sounded like the chip used in a CD player that I almost purchased - the AMR CD-77.  In that implementation, they added circuitry to allow for a variety of no filter, no digital filter, and then different up sampling and oversampling options.  All this doesn't really matter if Vinnie doesn't want to open up this piece for discussion...

I'm sure it's amazing!

[Vinnie R.]

Hi Vinnie,

It sounds like maybe the Philips TDA1541 or better yet the TDA1541A (crown, double crown, etc.)?  Or I'm guessing maybe by the web page that will remain a secret?

jwes

 

Hi jwes,

Thank you for your post.  We will not be disclosing the dac chip of the Isabellina.  What we will say about the design is the following  :

Our recipe is a purist approach:

- New-old-stock 16-bit, non-oversampling/non-upsampling D/A chip that implements R-2R conversion
- No digital filtering
- Discrete Class A transistor output stage (no opamps)
- SLA battery powered with dedicated linear voltage regulators for the analog and digital sections

There was a paper written some decades ago by a Japanese chap who theorized that 16 bit
is all you need, provided it is done correctly (the way it is in my CDP and the way that Vinnie
appears to be doing it) and that all that up/oversampling just kills the music.
I think Vinnie is going to have a giant slayer on his hands as he has gone beyond what was
advocated in that paper into the realm of (how would one describe it?) purity.

Hi nonoise,

Thank you, and YES, the reason why we are picked this 16-bit nos chip and our our discrete output stage is simple - the pure, analog-like sound as we described on the Isabella webpage:

The built-in “Isabellina” dac module recreates music from digital media as close as possible to that of a high-end analog setup. We carefully voiced the Isabellina to seduce the listener with a non-fatiguing sound conveying the indisputable qualities of analog playback, such as richness of tone, excellent pace/timing, spaciousness, and natural upper frequency resolution.

While others have used such 16-bit chips and similar implementations of the Ryohei Kusunoki style dac, ours is most likely a bit different in the input stage (the USB direct to I2S, the spdif receiver design) and output stage (the discrete Class-A design), the SLA battery power and the extensive voltage regulation on-board, layout, etc.

Feeding the Isabellina dac into the Isabella battery powered tube line-stage = PURE MUSIC-MAKING MAGIC!


Hi rlabarre,

Welcome to Audiocircle and the RWA forum!

The Isabellina 16-bit, non-oversampling design is actually not very sensitive to jitter.  While jitter is real, as long as you are using a decent transport (SPDIF: coax or optical), I do not believe you need to be too concerned about this.  Also, decent does not necessarily = expensive.  Even some inexpensive DVD/CD players (e.g. Oppo, Toshibas, etc.) have coax and/or optical outputs that are quite good and will make the Isabellina sing!  However, I have seen some really crappy no-name dvd/cd players output TERRIBLE looking (and sounding) SPDIF with way more jitter than normal, so try to go with something that has a good reputation as a transport.

Using the USB input (which converts directly to I2S and bypasses an SPDIF conversion), you'll get even better performance and jitter really not even an issue here.  My favorite transport is a MacBook feeding USB to the Isabellina dac, but I have also tried the SPDIF inputs via fairly inexpensive transports.  It sounds so good that jitter is probably the last thing on my mind!  If it sounds good, it IS good and you'll KNOW it! 

Thanks for all your posts!

Vinnie

[6rs]

Order placed! The Sig 30.2 has restored my faith in HiFi. If Vinnie says the Isabella is his masterpiece, it will be good. If I am wrong, there is the 30 days money-back guarantee.
Besides, I like combination of new and old: NOS dac, tubes combined with Computer as music server. Light gear, CD collection on the computer (and in the closet), reasonable pricing, and sound that let's you forget the machinery... I can't wait to welcome the Isabella to join the Sig 30.2.

[DaveC113]

So it's a NOS NOS DAC? 

[Loftprojection]

Using the USB input (which converts directly to I2S and bypasses an SPDIF conversion), you'll get even better performance and jitter really not even an issue here.  My favorite transport is a MacBook feeding USB to the Isabellina dac, but I have also tried the SPDIF inputs via fairly inexpensive transports.  It sounds so good that jitter is probably the last thing on my mind!  If it sounds good, it IS good and you'll KNOW it! 

Hey Vinnie, a few questions on this:

- Do you use iTune as the player with your Macbook?
- How long of a USB cable are you using?  I like to use my Macbook to browse while listening to music so in order to do that one would need quite a long cable (maybe 20 feet).
- Does the length and quality of the USB cable matter to the sound?
- Have you tried feeding Isabella with an Airport Express, if so does it sound equal, better or worst then USB direct from Macbook?
- As you know I've been using your modified SB2 for a while now and it is fed by a Macbook running Slimserver on it.  Do you think running Isabella direct from Macbook USB would provide better sound then the SB2 feeding it through BNC connector?

Sorry if this is a lot of questions so please don't feel rushed to answer, I'm not in a hurry, just evaluating my future possibilities for a potential personal birthday gift this autumn! 

[romandoc]

Looks really nice, and for the price, which is not low by any means, I think it appears to be a contender for the better preamps out there. But what I think is a serious limitation in its design for a cost no object category (which this isn't, I know) is the choice of volume control, Alps with resistive element carbon. A better choice would have been DACT, an even better choice ELMA or Shalco with discrete nude vishays or tantalum resistors and, perhaps, the best choice a double c-core TVC. Isabella battery powered with a double c-core TVC instead of ALPS - OMG!!!

[Afterimage]

Using the USB input (which converts directly to I2S and bypasses an SPDIF conversion), you'll get even better performance and jitter really not even an issue here.  My favorite transport is a MacBook feeding USB to the Isabellina dac, but I have also tried the SPDIF inputs via fairly inexpensive transports.  It sounds so good that jitter is probably the last thing on my mind!  If it sounds good, it IS good and you'll KNOW it! 

Hey Vinnie, a few questions on this:

- Do you use iTune as the player with your Macbook?
- How long of a USB cable are you using?  I like to use my Macbook to browse while listening to music so in order to do that one would need quite a long cable (maybe 20 feet).
- Does the length and quality of the USB cable matter to the sound?
- Have you tried feeding Isabella with an Airport Express, if so does it sound equal, better or worst then USB direct from Macbook?
- As you know I've been using your modified SB2 for a while now and it is fed by a Macbook running Slimserver on it.  Do you think running Isabella direct from Macbook USB would provide better sound then the SB2 feeding it through BNC connector?

Sorry if this is a lot of questions so please don't feel rushed to answer, I'm not in a hurry, just evaluating my future possibilities for a potential personal birthday gift this autumn! 

Those are great questions and as someone who has never used a MacBook, but is getting one once the Isabella arrives, I would like to know the answers too.

[Vinnie R.]

Order placed! The Sig 30.2 has restored my faith in HiFi. If Vinnie says the Isabella is his masterpiece, it will be good. If I am wrong, there is the 30 days money-back guarantee.
Besides, I like combination of new and old: NOS dac, tubes combined with Computer as music server. Light gear, CD collection on the computer (and in the closet), reasonable pricing, and sound that let's you forget the machinery... I can't wait to welcome the Isabella to join the Sig 30.2.

Hi 6rs,

Thanks for your post and I'm glad you are enjoying your 30.2!

Yes, the Isabella is what I view as "the best RWA piece to date," especially with the built-in Isabellina dac module.  I believe that I have accurately described what the sound of the Isabella is about on the Isabella webpage, but there is so much more to be written and I decided to just let the Isabella "tell her story" to the listener.  I am really looking forward to (and greatly appreciate!) feedback from our customers and the reviews that will follow (6moons, and Tone Audio will follow in the next issue!).  As you mention, with the 30 day trial period, you can't go wrong and I don't believe we will see any returned. 

So it's a NOS NOS DAC? 

Hi DaveC113,

Yes, sir! 

Hey Vinnie, a few questions on this:

- Do you use iTune as the player with your Macbook?
- How long of a USB cable are you using?  I like to use my Macbook to browse while listening to music so in order to do that one would need quite a long cable (maybe 20 feet).
- Does the length and quality of the USB cable matter to the sound?
- Have you tried feeding Isabella with an Airport Express, if so does it sound equal, better or worst then USB direct from Macbook?
- As you know I've been using your modified SB2 for a while now and it is fed by a Macbook running Slimserver on it.  Do you think running Isabella direct from Macbook USB would provide better sound then the SB2 feeding it through BNC connector?

Hi LP,

1) Yes, I am using iTunes (playing Apple Lossless and/or WAV files) on my MacBook using the USB output.

2) I am currently using a 12 foot cable (sometimes I like to answer emails and surf the web and listen at the same time as well  ), but have tried a 6 footer and even a 15 or 16 footer.  If you use a high quality cable that is spec's at the USB 2.0 standard ("High Speed USB") , you most likely will not hear any difference (I couldn't) with the Isabellina dac.  The Isabella with Isabellina dac option includes a 6 foot USB 2.0 cable.  If you need longer, just make sure you go with the "High Speed" USB and you should be fine. 

3) See above

4) Have not tried the Airport Express.  I know it outputs mini-Toslink (optical SPDIF), so you would need a mini-Toslink to Toslink optical cable (the good thing is that at least the optical cable isolates you from noise since the Airport Express is plugged in directly to the AC outlet).  Going with USB converts directly to I2S (the native digital signal that feeds the dac chip), so there is no intermediate SPDIF conversion and from my listening tests, using USB sounds the best.  It does make sense why a hard-wired USB cable to the Isabellina dac would sound better than the Airport Express.  You are not transmitting wirelessly, you are converting to SPDIF and then transmitting this from electrical to optical and back to an electrical signal, which then needs to be converted to I2S. 

This is NOT to say that you can't get excellent results from TOSLINK or BNC (coax), but USB direct is where it is at! 

5) Yes... go iTunes and feed USB out directly to the Isabella.  This gets rid of Slim Server (I never really liked this software as it is a little clunky to me), the SB2 and its SPDIF output.  USB direct to the Isabella via the Macbook (and if you really want the best, run the MacBook on battery)... it will be very hard to beat this!  I also LOVE the Front Row software and remote that comes with the Macbook.  I can easily see all my music and album artwork from across the room and control it with that little remote. 

ooks really nice, and for the price, which is not low by any means, I think it appears to be a contender for the better preamps out there. But what I think is a serious limitation in its design for a cost no object category (which this isn't, I know) is the choice of volume control, Alps with resistive element carbon. A better choice would have been DACT, an even better choice ELMA or Shalco with discrete nude vishays or tantalum resistors and, perhaps, the best choice a double c-core TVC. Isabella battery powered with a double c-core TVC instead of ALPS - OMG!!!

Hi romandoc,

Our choice of volume control has been discussed here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=52860.msg493402#msg493402

Before we tried the motorized Alps, we were not sure if we were going to be satisfied (we've always been using DACT and Goldpoint).  However, once we tried it, we were very surprised by how good it sounded (and and well it tracked L to R) in our circuit design.  We changed the "voicing" of the circuit slightly to have best synergy with the Alps, and we have been very pleased with the results and smooth, whisper silent, and reliable operation... so we have not looked back

Thanks for all your great questions!

Vinnie

[rlabarre]

The Isabellina 16-bit, non-oversampling design is actually not very sensitive to jitter.  While jitter is real, as long as you are using a decent transport (SPDIF: coax or optical), I do not believe you need to be too concerned about this.

From this statement can we assume that your DAC doesn't do any reclocking magic in the master-slave vein? Also, understood that you are very proud of your new baby here and that it sounds lovely to your ears, but do you have measurements of the jitter that it contributes to what may already be coming from a chosen transport?

Using the USB input (which converts directly to I2S and bypasses an SPDIF conversion), you'll get even better performance and jitter really not even an issue here.

Firewire is supposed to be even better, isn't it? Did you consider it? What was your main reason for not implementing it, perhaps in addition to USB?

[Vinnie R.]

From this statement can we assume that your DAC doesn't do any reclocking magic in the master-slave vein? Also, understood that you are very proud of your new baby here and that it sounds lovely to your ears, but do you have measurements of the jitter that it contributes to what may already be coming from a chosen transport?

Hi rlabarre,

We are not doing any reclocking "magic" in the Isabellina because we do not have to.  The non-oversampling nature of our design allows for a much wider window of acceptance for jitter (compared to dacs that have digital filters and upsample at higher speeds... they are much more sensitive to jitter).  Our design is not contributing jitter so there are no measurements to provide you on this. 

We have achieved a much more musically pure and "analog" sound with our implementation and we found that adding in reclocking simply added radiated RF noise and went against what we have found that already sounds so good.  If we believed that we needed to add the complexity of the reclocking circuit in our dac design to make it sound better (and this really does not add any significant cost to us and is easy enough to do), we would have been the first to do it. 

Firewire is supposed to be even better, isn't it? Did you consider it? What was your main reason for not implementing it, perhaps in addition to USB?

I would not say that Firewire is "better."  It really depends on the implementation, and for our 16-bit, NOS design that puts the importance of recreating the music [as non-digital sounding as possible] before specs, we have no need for Firewire when it is clear that USB is something that both users of Macs and PCs can enjoy, and USB works so well in our application that we have no reason to go with anything else (except for the SPDIF coax and optical inputs that we offer, which are very widely used in home audio and will be for a long, long time).

Best regards,

Vinnie

[6rs]

[...] from a chosen transport?

Why choose anything else than a computer that supplies the music signal from its harddrive via CPU and USB port?
This seems the version that produces minimal jitter (I admit, it is second-hand web information, see eg http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue22/nugent.htm), is recommended by Vinnie as sounding best, and is also the most convenient and cheapest one. When you upgrade your laptop, just use the existing one as music server.  And sell the fancy, overpriced CD transport

[Vinnie R.]

[...] from a chosen transport?

Why choose anything else than a computer that supplies the music signal from its harddrive via CPU and USB port?
This seems the version that produces minimal jitter (I admit, it is second-hand web information, see eg http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue22/nugent.htm), is recommended by Vinnie as sounding best, and is also the most convenient and cheapest one. When you upgrade your laptop, just use the existing one as music server.  And sell the fancy, overpriced CD transport

Hi 6rs,

That article does a good job at explaining the concepts of using a computer as a music server (transport) into a USB dac, and its advantages over SPDIF from a technical perspective (a lot about how much better the jitter perfomance is). 

However, I do have customers who still only use a CD transport (optical or coax output), but I'd say that they have been in the minority for a couple of years now.  More and more people are finding out that computer audio is very simple (especially with a MacBook running iTunes, as Mac loves to make things very user-friendly with their software and their operating system is very stable and does a fantastic job as a music server!).

You'll still find that using SPDIF with the Isabellina dac still offers superb results (even with some inexpensive DVD/CD transports from Oppo, Toshiba, Sony, etc.), so for those who still prefer loading the physical CD, the Isabellina dac will do a fine job for you as well. 

is recommended by Vinnie as sounding best, and is also the most convenient and cheapest one.

Cheaper than a Macbook or other form of computer-based music server would be an inexpensive DVD/DC transport such as the Oppo I mention above (in the $100 to $300 range), but the Macbook with USB output has more advantages than just the superior sound... it is a music server with remote and you can view/control it across your room, and run it off-the-grid for up to around 6 hours!    BTW, it is also a laptop so you can even do non-audio related things on it as well if you wish 

I think Mac should give me some free gear for all my raving of this thing!    Seriously, it is very cool and I am sending one to Srajan of 6moons with his Isabella so he can write about his experiences using it with the Isabellina dac as someone who has never used one before....

Cheers!

Vinnie

[dewar]

The Macbook route does make sense but I've not figured out a way to implement it that I can live with. I'm writing from a Macbook at the moment, sitting in the sweetspot with my Sig 30 at arms length behind the couch.

What I invisaged problems with was the noise of the computer (my Macbook is less than a year old and makes more noise than I'm prepared to live with, even though it is quiet by most standards); noise from hard drives; the expense and hundreds of hours it will take to put 1000 cd's to hard drive; the need to keep cd copies as backup anyway; the difficulty in taking the laptop to the living room or kitchen and having music continue playing.

Not meaning to dissuade anyone, just a few things to consider before splurging. I can second the suggestion of an Oppo as a fair transport.

Sonos-->Isabella with the PC in another room is a very elegant solution, genius product that IMO.

Cheers
Bevan

[Vinnie R.]

Hi Bevan,

Perhaps your Macbook is defective?  The only time I get any audible noise is when the CD drive is ripping music to the hard drive.

When I use my Macbook to play music from the hard drive, it is very silent.... no matter if I have it on my lap and am surfing the web, or have it on a shelf and am controlling it via the remote across my room... silent.

I suppose if you are playing music and running other applications at the same time, you will be using more CPU power and the internal fan might switch on, but when only playing music off the hard drive (which is really want I purchased it for), it is very silent so I do wonder if yours is defective?

the difficulty in taking the laptop to the living room or kitchen and having music continue playing.

I only keep it in my system, but I suppose you can use Airport Express for your system and wirelessly stream.  This way, you can take your laptop to another room.

As you mention... it might not be for everyone.  There are so many kinds of transports to choose from (such as the Sonos you mentioned) and it is all about getting the one that makes it fun for you.

Best regards,

Vinnie