OB-7 Build with a few questions

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soewhatman

OB-7 Build with a few questions
« on: 25 Jun 2008, 04:29 am »
I'm getting ready to begin construction on the OB-7 kit I ordered from Danny a couple of months ago.  These will replace a pair of AV-3's I've been very pleased with.  I also ordered a pair of SW-12B subwoofer drivers and have already built those in small sealed boxes.  I'm now planning out the electronics for running all of this, and I'm unsure how to integrate the subs with the OB-7's.  Do most people let the OB-7's run full range, and just dial in the crossover frequency on the sub to blend in with the OB-7's,or should I use the subwoofer crossover to set the low frequency cut-off for the OB-7's?

My preference is to let the OB-7's run full range and just dial in the sub.  If I understand correctly, the woofers being in a sealed box should roll off very quickly below about 65hz and integrate well with the sub.  This would keep the signal path to the OB-7's more direct.


Thanks for your time guys.

Rick.

Bill Baker

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Re: OB-7 Build with a few questions
« Reply #1 on: 25 Jun 2008, 12:40 pm »
Hello Rick,
 What woofers are you using in the OB-7's? I would let the speakers run full range and dial in the sub to provide low end fill below the cut-off of the system. If you are using the upgraded woofers in the bass section, I would still recommend letting the woofers run full range and build the x-over with 5 or 6 resistors in the Bass Management System.

 This will allow you a lot of flexibility in the system.

Danny Richie

Re: OB-7 Build with a few questions
« Reply #2 on: 25 Jun 2008, 01:44 pm »
What he said.

Besides that high pass filter built onto most of those plate amps consists of a single 100 or 150uF Electrolytic cap and nothing else. This isn't something that you'd want in the signal path to your main speakers.

soewhatman

Re: OB-7 Build with a few questions
« Reply #3 on: 25 Jun 2008, 07:41 pm »
Ok, great.  That pretty much confirms what I already guessed.

Next question, how important is the baffle width for the lower portion of the speaker, where the 4 woofers are?  I'm considering making the box there 9.5" wide, which would save me a few inches in depth maintaining the same internal volume.  The box would fit and look better in my space at these dimensions I think.   To my understanding, the baffle width is much more critical in the upper MTM portion than down at the woofers, but I would like this confirmed by one of the experts before I get carried away.

Rick.

Danny Richie

Re: OB-7 Build with a few questions
« Reply #4 on: 25 Jun 2008, 08:08 pm »
You could get away with a little wider cabinet in the lower section especially if you use a large round over.

soewhatman

Re: OB-7 Build with a few questions
« Reply #5 on: 9 Jul 2008, 05:17 am »
Speakers are built and breaking in as we speak.  They scared the crap out of me when I first fired them up.  Very bright sounding, so bad I thought I had messed up the crossovers or something.  They started to settle in right away.  I assume the surrounds and spiders on the 6 m130 drivers need to loosen up in order to keep up with the tweeter.  Is this consistent with others experience with these upon first powering them up?

I'm going to drink a beer while I let these work some magic, and salute every speaker builder/designer that can manage to build a crossover and make it look good.  Mine are functional, and solid, and that's about it.  Getting those buggers to fit inside the OB-7's is a feat of itself.  I ended up building mine on small wood blanks and attaching those to the base, which screws in.  One blank has the midrange crossover with all it's inductors, and the other has the woofers on one side and the tweeter on the back side.  It was very tempting to put them in an external box, but I'm trying to get to less pieces of gear, not more.

I wired an extra set of binding posts so I can bi-amplify these if I so desire.  I have the lower four woofers on one post, and the midrange/tweeter on the other.  What is the impedance of each section?  I'm assuming its 8 ohms per section, but tell me if I'm wrong.

I'm running these sub-less at the moment, waiting on some stuff to arrive, but I already really like the way the sealed bass sounds.  That's always been my preferred method of handling the low notes.  Looking forward to having some fun with these.

Rick.

Bill Baker

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Re: OB-7 Build with a few questions
« Reply #6 on: 9 Jul 2008, 12:21 pm »
Hello Rick,
 You did the right thing wiring the woofer separate from the midrange and tweeter. That's the proper way of doing bi-wire/bi-amp. I have mine set up this way as well with external x-overs and have bi-amped with two 60 watt tube amps :thumb: Right now they are being bi-wired with a single 60 watt amp.
 Give them some time and you will be in heaven.

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Re: OB-7 Build with a few questions
« Reply #7 on: 9 Jul 2008, 02:06 pm »
Speakers are built and breaking in as we speak.  They scared the crap out of me when I first fired them up.  ... Is this consistent with others experience with these upon first powering them up?


I was lucky enough to have read this post by Bill so I never thought twice about it. I just let them play while I was out of the house...

  Initial setup
 
 The first hour was brutal. When I started up the first track, the system sounded like there was a miswiring of the bass drivers or incorrect wiring of the crossover. The sounds was disjointed and thin from the midrange up. I contribute this to being a fresh pair of speakers with no initial burn-in on any of the drivers of crossover components. When we purchase manufactured loudspeakers, the manufacturer will test the speakers which puts time on them before going out the door. Even we do this with our finished products. This is why you never experience this initial mess with retail products. Consider yourself lucky. I mention this because I know there will be many people reading this that are building their own speakers and I want to give you a heads up so you won't go taking your speakers apart looking for mistakes in the wiring.
 

more of what he heard here
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50778.msg455681#msg455681

Tony

soewhatman

Re: OB-7 Build with a few questions
« Reply #8 on: 9 Jul 2008, 02:24 pm »
Bill's description is pretty spot on to what I heard, I would say.  I'll be playing the heck out of these for a few days sounds like.  I'm eager to get these loosened up and see what they can do.

Rick.

Nick77

Re: OB-7 Build with a few questions
« Reply #9 on: 9 Jul 2008, 04:16 pm »
I also found Bill's posting very valuable during the breakin process. Although I found in my room that the treble remained a little bright to my taste even after breakin. I have a large room with tile floors and no room treatments. Danny helped me with a couple of resistors in the tweet circut and now I am in audio heaven. I just finished the bases after several months of rest.

One question about the spikes, what benifit would I experiece and how are they installed?


kp93300

Re: OB-7 Build with a few questions
« Reply #10 on: 10 Jul 2008, 09:11 am »
Hi All,
Is the tweeter in the OB7 the same as OB5 ?
Has any body any experience comparing the  sound of OB 5 and OB 7 ?
I have a OB 5 and is very please with it .
Thanks
kp 93300

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Re: OB-7 Build with a few questions
« Reply #11 on: 10 Jul 2008, 12:48 pm »
Hello KP,
 The MTM section, as well as the crossover (for the MTM section), is the same in both the OB-5 and OB-7. The difference is in the bass section where the OB-5 uses two drivers in a ported enclosure rather than 4 in a sealed as found in the OB-7.

Nick,
 I too played with some attenuation in the tweeter circuit but for my room and my gear (all tubes) I found that going back to the original circuit best suited my environment. Of coarse all rooms/systems will differ.
Out of curiosity, what did you end up doing? What value resistors did you end up with?

soewhatman

Re: OB-7 Build with a few questions
« Reply #12 on: 10 Jul 2008, 02:05 pm »
I let mine run in for a few hours last night after I made new speaker cables for them and hooked up the subwoofers (a pair of GR research sw-12b's).  They are really starting to come together nicely.  I don't think I will have a problem with them being too bright in my room, but time will tell.

Late last night I decided to share the Metallica Black Album with the neighbors.  It was a visceral experience.  I've been running AV/3's for the past year, and in my room above a certain volume level they started to sound a bit ragged.  They were pure bliss below that level, mind you.  I'm sure it was due at least in part to poor room interaction, as I don't have any audio specific treatments in my large room covered with hard surfaces.  That's next on my list of DIY projects.  By comparison the OB-7's seem to behave much better in my room.  When I was considering the OB-7's Danny told me something about them behaving better in regards to sidewall reflections and such.  To be honest I didn't fully understand everything he was saying, but it works, whatever he was describing to me.

I'm curious what other find to be good positioning for OB-7's as far as distance between speakers, distance from speakers, and amount of toe-in.  I'm currently set up with about 9' between the speakers and 10' from the speakers, with them toed in enough to point about 1' to the left and right of the listening position.  I haven't started messing with positioning yet, I figured they better break in some first.

Rick.

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Re: OB-7 Build with a few questions
« Reply #13 on: 10 Jul 2008, 02:14 pm »
Hi Rick,
 In regard to positioning, every setup is different. What works in one room may not in another. It will be a matter of experimentation in your room. The room I have the OB-7's in is very large with the main section being 18' x 30' with the overall size being 1300 sq. feet. You can see from my picture in an earlier post in this thread how I have them set up.
 If you want a tip for finding the best placement for the subwoofer, locate your sub (if possible) at your listening position and then walk around the room to find where the presentation sound the best and where the sub best intigrates with the system. Where you are standing is where the sub should be located. The problem with this is that you may find the best location for the sub is in the most awkward place.

soewhatman

Re: OB-7 Build with a few questions
« Reply #14 on: 11 Jul 2008, 03:10 pm »
I sat down and spent some time really listening to the OB-7's for the first time last night.  I also have my AV-3's in the room, and was swapping them in and out of the setup to compare, and I noticed a few things.

Keep in mind that the only hi-fi speakers I've had in my house are Danny's kit speakers.  Prior to those it was strictly consumer grade stuff.  My room is also somewhat large and completely untreated.  I only had about 10 hours of play time on the OB-7's prior to last night, so they are not fully broken in yet I imagine.

The OB-7's image effortlessly, in comparison to the AV-3's.  This was the most amazing aspect of the new speakers to me.  With the AV-3's, getting them to image properly required lots of playing with the speaker location and toe-in.  Once I had the AV's positioned to my liking, the soundstage seemed to exist in the space between the speakers.  Most of the localization was directly in the center, with some sense of music/instruments somewhat to the right and left.

The ob-7's, by comparison, have a sound stage that is significantly larger and more defined than the av-3's.  I played the Simon and Garfunkel Concert in Central Park album, and the audience was clearly much larger than my room.  The exact location of both the stage and the miscellaneous whistling and hooting from the audience was very easy to pick out.  I was very impressed.  All this without messing with the position of the speakers at all, so it can only get better from here.

The Ob-7's also disappear very easily.  When I was actively paying attention to the music it was very easy to forget that there was a pair of speakers in the room.  With the Av-3's I always knew there was a pair of speakers in the room.  On some tracks with the ob-7's I wasn't even sure I was in a room.

Further, the detail resolution of the Ob-7's was clearly much more refined.  I played some Astor Pizolla music, an album titled "Oblivion," which includes lots of piano and stringed instruments.  I also played some flamenco tracks, with acoustic guitar.  The piano sounded more lifelike, and the subtle texture of plucking at guitar strings or running a bow across strings was easily discernible.

The ob-7's are very clearly capable of clean output at higher SPL levels than the av-3's.  I think the av-3's began to misbehave in my completely untreated room above a certain point.  The ob-7's play very cleanly to the limit of the volume level I'm comfortable with.  I don't think I'll every find the upper limit of the OB-7's, as I like my hearing as it is.  Some music is meant to be played loud, Metallica being an example, and the OB-7's deliver well.

I know this might not paint the av-3's in the best light, but to be clear until a couple of days ago they were the best speakers I have ever had in my house.  They were a huge step up from the consumer grade speakers I had used in the past and whet my appetite for the thing called "hi-fi."  I was very pleased with them, but once I realized how much fun I was having with music I wanted to go whole hog and build what I hoped would be the last pair of speakers I would ever own.  I wanted to avoid the need to fiddle or upgrade, and instead focus on music.  Time will be the ultimate judge, but the OB-7's are off to a very good start for me.

I figured this might be of interest to anyone considering between the ob series or the av series, and wondering if the it was worth the extra cost.  When I was asking Danny about the Ob's he told me they would do everything the av-3 did, but take it to the next level.  He's an honest and fair salesman for his product.

Rick.

soewhatman

Re: OB-7 Build with a few questions
« Reply #15 on: 14 Jul 2008, 02:31 am »
A few pictures of my setup with the ob-7's to share:







The whole setup is still a work in progress, but the speakers turned out very well.  I used walnut veneer, which I dyed dark brown, on the baffles and some nice teak veneer on the boxes.  They are really sharp looking.  The two side units behind the speakers house the sw12b subs.  Each is in a sealed 1.2 cu ft compartment, and  each of those side consoles is constructed from 1.5" thick mdf well braced.  They are heavy and solid.  This was my method of sneaking in the subsand keeping the wife happy.

I know I've found other peoples pictures very handy in planning out my own build, so I wanted to be sure to share.

Rick.

soewhatman

Re: OB-7 Build with a few questions
« Reply #16 on: 20 Jul 2008, 06:00 pm »
I've been playing the heck out of my ob-7's and messing around with positioning them for the best sound.  I had a pretty good peak I could hear, and I picked up an SPL meter so I could figure out where it was and what to do about it.  It's centered right at 58 hz, and it's from the ob-7's and not the subwoofers.  I measured both the ob-7's and the subwoofers on their own, respectively, and the subs behave fine at that point even when I turn the crossover point way up so they are not rolling off at that frequency.  I even measured both ob-7's on their own, and it is mostly coming from the left hand speaker, though the right hand speaker also has a rise at that frequency just not as large.

I messed around with the ob-7 position to try to tackle this.  First I moved them out an additional 2.5 ft.  These things like to breathe, it seems.  This worked wonders for flattening the 58hz peak, but put the speakers way too close to my sitting position and messed with the room furniture.  After some more messing I compromised and have them set about 1.5 ft. off the subwoofer/console units behind them.  This puts the upper mtm section about 2.5 ft. off the wall.  They behave much better in this position, though not as well as out in the middle of the room.  Too bad the wife won't go for that  :lol:.

The speakers image and sound somewhat differently in this position, though, which raises a question.  In my initial location the vocals and other centered details were firmly locked in a very narrow location firmly between the speakers.  After moving them, the imaging become somewhat more diffuse.  Also, the speakers now sound a bit "shouty" to me.  I'm wondering if perhaps I'm too close to them now, and need more space between me and the speakers to allow the output from all of the drivers to sum properly.

With that in mind I'm curious what you would consider the minimum listening distance from the ob-7's.  I'm presently seated right at 8' from the speaker baffles.

Rick.

Bill Baker

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Re: OB-7 Build with a few questions
« Reply #17 on: 20 Jul 2008, 06:25 pm »
Dude, those look HOT :drool:   Nice job.

 As far as listening position, you will have to continue experimenting. In my setup, I have theam about 8 feet apart and sit about 8 feet from the baffles. Behind my listening position I have another 10-12 feet before the wall.
 They are out 5 feet from the wall and also are 5 feet from the side walls. I get  very spacious soundstage with them being in souch a large room. Playing with toe even a quarter inch changes things considerably.

Danny Richie

Re: OB-7 Build with a few questions
« Reply #18 on: 20 Jul 2008, 06:44 pm »
Something for you to keep in mind is that the closer they get to you the closer they need to be to each other. If the imaging is not locked in well then move them in so that they are closer to each other.

In order that the rear wall delay is heard as a delay they really need to be about 3 feet from the rear wall (rear of the MTM section).

Also, I would expect the low frequency gain (58Hz peak) to be stronger on your left channel because that side is the side with the corner in it. You can eliminate it by making a tube trap for that corner. It will also help if you can treat the wall right behind each speaker with a thick absorbing material like a foam, or compressed fiberglass. This will soften that rear reflection and attenuate it a little.

Good luck with it and keep posting any issues. We'll help you tweak them out.

soewhatman

Re: OB-7 Build with a few questions
« Reply #19 on: 20 Jul 2008, 07:53 pm »
Thanks for your helpful advice Danny.  I've got the speakers well out from the wall right now.  The MTM upper portion is 3.5' from the wall, not 2.5' like I said below, so I'm good in that regard.  I'll try moving them closer together and play with the toe-in to firm up the imaging. 

I'm afraid a tube trap is a no-go for aesthetic reasons in my current room.  When you say treat the wall right behind each speaker, does the treatment need to be low in order to be effective.  By this I mean does it need to go all the way to the floor?  It would be easy for me to make some wall hung panels to hang behind each speaker, but they would need to be above the console/subwoofer units.  Otherwise I may need to make some "portable" treatments that can be stored in the closet when not in use.  I'm glad you mentioned some room treatment ides.  I've got a pretty solid source/speaker setup at this point so room treatments are my next project.

Rick.