[jkelly]

Thanks Doac and nice bike Doug.

George,

When you adjust the levels - do you just listen to music and adjust or
do you send white/pink noise thru?


thanks again,

Jeff

[doak]

Thanks Doac and nice bike Doug.

When you adjust the levels - do you just listen to music and adjust or
do you send white/pink noise thru?


thanks again,

Jeff

Started with the SPL meter and then "to taste" --- seems I like a bit more "bottom end" than "flat". 

Doak

[mgalusha]

When you adjust the levels - do you just listen to music and adjust or
do you send white/pink noise thru?

If you know the gain of your amps the best place to start is to adjust the DCX to match them in dB. Say one amp has 22dB of gain and the other 26dB. You can either bring one up 4dB or the other down 4dB and that should get you very close as I believe the stock CS2 settings in the DCX are configured with the idea of matching amps top and bottom.

As George mentioned, Jan's kit allows this to occur in the analog domain so you don't have to do digital attenuation. It works very well.

mike

[jkelly]

Thanks all, this was very helpful.

Jeff

[ctviggen]

I had the same thought about the crossover/equalizer......that it was not set up correctly.  So I looked into it, figured it all out, and made sure all settings were "flat".  Then I selected the "correct" pre-programmed setting for my situation as per the manual.  Matter of fact, spkr distance from front wall, and the rest of my room dimensions were almost identical to the stated ideal for one of the settings.....#3 I think.  But it's been awhile so I'm not 100% sure.   It sounded so dead, soft, and recessed that I actually had to goose (= increase) both the bass and the treble by 8 db to get any kind of decent energy out of them!

The other thing is my buddy used the same equalizer at his place and the CS2 sounded good there.
He did not touch it before handing it off to me, so I don't think it was an equalizer setting problem.

The room may be to blame, but every speaker I have had in here has sounded at least good....and most sound excellent.   As you can see in my setup, I can place them well into the room and away from boundaries.






That leaves the finger of blame on the amps, or maybe cabling.
Possibly not a matcho simpatico.

The mystery remains...and will probably stay unsolved!

 

I don't think that room is good for an open baffle type set up.  Those stairs to the left are going to eat anything that reflects off the left rear, as will it eat anything from the right wall.   You really need more of a rectangular box, or else the expansiveness of sound you get from open baffle speakers won't be there.

[ctviggen]

Has anyone measured the CS2 in-room low-frequency (f3) cutoff?

In my opinion, this would be a totally useless measurement.  For instance, tell me the f3 cutoff for this speaker:



Here's the overall response (though the low frequency here should be ignored):



These are from a single VMPS RM40 operating in my HT room.  I can't remember how many bass traps I had at the time, though.

[toobluvr]

I had the same thought about the crossover/equalizer......that it was not set up correctly.  So I looked into it, figured it all out, and made sure all settings were "flat".  Then I selected the "correct" pre-programmed setting for my situation as per the manual.  Matter of fact, spkr distance from front wall, and the rest of my room dimensions were almost identical to the stated ideal for one of the settings.....#3 I think.  But it's been awhile so I'm not 100% sure.   It sounded so dead, soft, and recessed that I actually had to goose (= increase) both the bass and the treble by 8 db to get any kind of decent energy out of them!

The other thing is my buddy used the same equalizer at his place and the CS2 sounded good there.
He did not touch it before handing it off to me, so I don't think it was an equalizer setting problem.

The room may be to blame, but every speaker I have had in here has sounded at least good....and most sound excellent.   As you can see in my setup, I can place them well into the room and away from boundaries.






That leaves the finger of blame on the amps, or maybe cabling.
Possibly not a matcho simpatico.

The mystery remains...and will probably stay unsolved!

 

I don't think that room is good for an open baffle type set up.  Those stairs to the left are going to eat anything that reflects off the left rear, as will it eat anything from the right wall.   You really need more of a rectangular box, or else the expansiveness of sound you get from open baffle speakers won't be there.

Well then.....maybe that explains it!   

I don't know a huge amount about room acoustics, but I do consider myself extremely lucky to get such good sound with zero treatments.  This is with the many conventional dynamic speakers I have had in here.  Most folks marvel at the bass and even tonal balance.

Refreshing change from my apt in Manhattan were everything sounded like doody...no matter what I did!     

[zybar]

Well then.....maybe that explains it!   

I don't know a huge amount about room acoustics, but I do consider myself extremely lucky to get such good sound with zero treatments.  This is with the many conventional dynamic speakers I have had in here.  Most folks marvel at the bass and even tonal balance.

Refreshing change from my apt in Manhattan were everything sounded like doody...no matter what I did!     

John,

It didn't all sound like doody when you were in Manhattan.

I can remember many listening sessions that sounded very good (especially when we were spinning vinyl).

George

[Wind Chaser]

That looks like a fairly decent room.  However bass performance will suffer if they are pulled too far out into the room.  My OB experience was anything much past 4~4.5' and the bass would quickly roll off.

[zybar]

That looks like a fairly decent room.  However bass performance will suffer if they are pulled too far out into the room.  My OB experience was anything much past 4~4.5' and the bass would quickly roll off.

Hmm...the CS2's in my room are able to hit the mid-20's (with EQ assistance) and they are about 8-9 feet out into the room.

George

[jkelly]

All the pics of the CS2 I have seen, have them a foot or two from the
side walls and toe'd in - as opposed to the 1/3rds rule like the above
picture seems to use.  I assume the CS2's like to float a big full image.

Would that have anything to do with the experience?

[toobluvr]

All the pics of the CS2 I have seen, have them a foot or two from the
side walls and toe'd in - as opposed to the 1/3rds rule like the above
picture seems to use.  I assume the CS2's like to float a big full image.

Would that have anything to do with the experience?

I am not using the 1/3 rule, or any other rule for that matter....just my ears!

 

System is in my Living Room and my front door is to the right and behind the right speaker, so the spkrs are exposed to lots of foot traffic.  Believe me, I would just love to move them toward the rack and get them out of the way,  but the sound suffers a lot when I do so.   

Directly above the speakers the ceiling changes from 8.5 feet to cathedral as you walk toward the rack.   Moving the speakers away from listener and toward rack sucks all the life out of the music and really makes it lose impact and snap.  Additionally, the soundstage collapses and the music loses presence and immediacy.  I'm figuring that big open space and staircase just sucks everything up. 

The more they are moved back, the worse it gets.  I can't really move them back just a bit because then they block path from front door to stairs.  They would basically have to go all the way to the rack.  This works best for living, but is the worst for sound.   Guess which choice I made?   

Their current position provides the best sound by far.   I think giving a big speaker like this lots of breathing room really helps.  I get EXCELLENT bass in this setup, and with absolutely zero treatments.  I have never measured it, but the rest of the range sounds pretty balanced.  I'm a happy guy!

 

[toobluvr]

Well then.....maybe that explains it!   

I don't know a huge amount about room acoustics, but I do consider myself extremely lucky to get such good sound with zero treatments.  This is with the many conventional dynamic speakers I have had in here.  Most folks marvel at the bass and even tonal balance.

Refreshing change from my apt in Manhattan were everything sounded like doody...no matter what I did!     

John,

It didn't all sound like doody when you were in Manhattan.

I can remember many listening sessions that sounded very good (especially when we were spinning vinyl).

George

So my generous bartender routine before listening worked!!

      

[lhunsic105]

I am not a writer and  usually don’t chime in on the threads but I would like to share a bit of my experience with the CS-2's.  I know that we come from various backgrounds in our audio journeys , have various listening habits and our experiences and our expectations of what constitutes satisfying great sound are vary different so I would  like to put my comments into perspective
I do go to many non amplified live Concerts, mostly Classical, some Jazz and Blues. I also see an occasional amplified Concert.  Just saw Thievery Corporation in Austin TX.  I want to be moved as close to the original event as  possible retaining that elusive emotional connection .  Natural harmonic content is a must for me as well as a well defined sense of space and 3d images within that space. Proper size and focus although very important is not to add or detract from the musical event.  I guess I am critical and am a firm believer of finding the right combination of audio equipment to obtain system synergy which is not an easy feat..   In my 40+ years of searching, experimenting, and exploring the newest, greatest and sometimes most expensive,  I find that most of the greatest and latest touted advances in audio to be sadly lacking in any advancement or at best just another take of some sonic theme but there are few that truly do bring us a bit closer to musical truth. .  Before going on to the CS-2's, some will wander what type of speakers I have owned for comparison sake.     So I will name just a few.  ESS Transtatic, Infinity Servo’s, B&W, Rogers, DQ-10's, Stacked Quad 57's, Stacked Dayton Wright w/Decca, Maggies (many), Acoustat(many), Orion (built), Snell AIII, Quad 63, Salk HT3, Vandy’s (a few) Koss 1A, Thiel, Harbeth, Spendor, Soundlab (3 pair) and the CS-2.  There are many many more.

So what do I think of the CS-2?  Are they the best thing since Apple pie? Short answer  No.  Do they as stated by some beat 30K plus speakers.  Perhaps a badly executed one.  . Are there better speakers out there.  I think yes..  Are they good for the asking price.  That is a bit more difficult to answer.  It depends if you are comparing them to purchasing a new pair of speakers or a pair of used,  the sonic trade offs you are willing to make and where your personal preferences are. In comparison to my Soundlabs w/ the PX membranes,  I do think the CS-2's  image well but I find the bass to be somewhat ill defined, weak, and has various woofer/ frame resonances .  The treble is a bit harsh lacking total integration with the mids and exhibiting resonances and is a bit peaky.  I believe this may be associated with the plastic throat and horn driver but am not sure. The Crossover adds it’s own hardness but I am sure this can be addressed and is by many.  I tried various  amps including the Bel Canto, Wyred, ASL Hurricane, Wolcotts Combo, ARC 100.2 Combo, and a few not worth listing.  Cables used were Ridge Street Audio and AU24's.  I found the AU24's worked best with my system.

I think the concept of the CS-2's is very interesting and all in all has many  advantages.  Overall, it is a good speaker for the money and will satisfy many.  It is are very dynamic , has a nice sense of scale and images well.  The Emerald Physics CS-2's  however are not in the same league as the Soundlabs. (Still my Reference)  Even though the  Emeralds do have outstanding dynamics they lack the  dynamic fullness (think harmonic content and scale). of the Soundlabs.   With some of the issues addressed I think the speaker has great potential.  I do know of at least one manufacture in the process of doing just this and will be releasing an open baffle design/ digital crossover  in a few months that seems very promising..  Maybe this will deliver on the promises that I found lacking in the Emeralds.

 

[kehut]

[

[mca]

It's the start of a review and the reviewer wanted people to know that even early on, it sounds like something special. He obviously wants to wait until they fully break in to do the full review.

[kehut]

It's the start of a review and the reviewer wanted people to know that even early on, it sounds like something special. He obviously wants to wait until they fully break in to do the full review.

I think the full review after break in will indeed be very special...Judging from what I hear in my own system, the CS-2's continue to get better with some serious time logged. I believe that previous owners just didn't give them enough time and/or did not/cannot optimize placement within the room. It literally took over 500 hours of time logged to hear how special these are, and they are still improving. Any baffle resonance's or driver break-in gremlins have  completely disappeared. Although they do sound exceptionally good cold out of the box especially in comparison to other hi end speakers...they blossom tremendously after full break in. Patience is well rewarded.

The question was also asked if they have the dynamic ability to thump you in the chest....Zybar's experience is a  just a bit different than mine in that regard. While they do not push air like some of the huge box , crazy expensive, or ultra sensitive horn speakers designed for sound re-enforcement, they can come close in that regard. With my Nuforce 9.02 on bottom at over 300W/4 ohm and a balanced Rawson Gainclone at 100W on top, I have huge dynamics in my room at 9' from the speakers. The Sheffield Track and Drum on  FIM XRCD 24 CD, puts the drums in my room so well with a bit of tweaking on the dcx...Its scary good!  It would probably take much more power..say 1000W on bottom and a bit more on top to push air that hits you in your seat, but I believe that the CS-2's could do it and are capable of of it.

[zybar]

It's the start of a review and the reviewer wanted people to know that even early on, it sounds like something special. He obviously wants to wait until they fully break in to do the full review.

I think the full review after break in will indeed be very special...Judging from what I hear in my own system, the CS-2's continue to get better with some serious time logged. I believe that previous owners just didn't give them enough time and/or did not/cannot optimize placement within the room. It literally took over 500 hours of time logged to hear how special these are. Any baffle resonance's or driver break-in gremlins have  completely disappeared. Although they do sound exceptionally good cold out of the box especially in comparison to other hi end speakers...they blossom tremendously after full break in. Patience is well rewarded.

The question was also asked if they have the dynamic ability to thump you in the chest....Zybar's experience is a bit different than mine in that regard. While they do not push air like some of the huge box , crazy expensive, or ultra sensitive horn speakers designed for sound re-enforcement, they can come close in that regard. With my Nuforce 9.02 on bottom at over 300W/4 ohm and a balanced Rawson Gainclone at 100W on top, I have huge dynamics in my room at 9' from the speakers. The Sheffield Track and Drum on  FIM XRCD 24 CD, puts the drums in my room so well with a bit of tweaking on the dcx...Its scary good!  It would probably take much more power..say 1000W on bottom and a bit more on top to push air that hits you in your seat, but I believe that the CS-2's could do it and are capable of of it.

Ken,

Due to my choice of using roughly 120 watts of tube power on the woofers, you are correct that I haven't driven the woofers to their max potential from an air movement perspective.  I was willing to not forgo SOA dynamics, for the texture, shading, dimensionality, and detail that I feel a really good tube amp brings.

I will be trying a very good (but probably not SOA) SS amp on the woofers and will see what that yields.

George

[Jerrym303]

I can't say that it surprises one iota that an audiophile who has shuffled many good/great speakers totaling something like $100,000 in and out of his system and goes through the effort to find the pair that suits him to a "T" would not find a new pair the sells for 1/5th to 1/8th as much to be better or even close to equal.   

Clearly the "better then anything under $30K" is hyperbole, but I don't believe that most users ever bought that.

Those Soundlabs probably cost more than my entire system!  I really liked the big Soundlabs the only time I heard them and they are better than the CS-2's, but they are in an entirely different $ class.  I may even consider them someday.

It might be more useful to compare speakers a little closer in cost.

[Clayton Shaw]

Hi Everyone,

Now that we have over 100 pairs of CS2s in the field worldwide, we have a pretty good handle on why some users may have sold their speakers:

1. Setup Issues: Obviously, a biamped system configuration is more complex and creates opportunities for issues related to wiring, amplifier level mismatches and crossover setups that are not optimum. We have found 3 common areas of installation mistakes-
  a. Amp levels- If the power amps used have different gain structures, the DSP channel levels must be adjusted to match them up. If the levels are only slightly different, the listener may assume a difficiency in the speaker system. Using amps with identical channels eliminates any gain concerns.
  b. Speaker location- We sometimes find that users placed the CS2 equidistant from the front wall and side wall. This placement location will create a resonant, boomy sound. We recommend placing the CS2 closer to the side wall than the front wall and follow the user manual regarding placement location. When listeners complain of ill-defined bass, placement needs to be reviewed.
  c. System Gain- Sometimes, the system may incorporate a passive preamp or other approach that has either insufficient gain or too much gain. Either condition can adversely affect the sound.

2. Break-in Time: The CS2 requires an unusually long break-in period to sound its best. Owners are still calling in reports of significant improvements even at 1000 hrs and over. The nature of the sound changes in ways that one would not expect based on experience with traditional speakers. While many have been impressed with the CS2s sound cold out the box, they soon realize that an evolutionary process is underway, where the speaker begins to dramatically improve over time. It is quite interesting to watch this happen and is very rewarding to experience. We know that some owners simply haven't given the CS2 time to break-in sufficiently and may explain the large disparity in comments from: "the best I've ever heard"-to "good for the money".

It is, of course, normal and natural that some owners would sell their CS2s. No speaker or other audio product is ideal for everyone, or meets the expectations they had set beforehand. Fortunately, the number of owners who chose to sell theirs represents a small percentage of total units sold, since many of those sold are from customers upgrading to the CS1 Reference model coming out this month. Additionally, a number of pairs sold were from retail dealers who had demo units on hand when we moved all our North American distribution to Underwood Hifi this spring.

Happy Listening,
Clayton Shaw
Emerald Physics