[TheChairGuy]

I would save positive or negative comments for the
Critics Circle,theoretically ones comments about a product in that circle shouldn't raise too many eyebrows.
Scotty

Were that only true Scotty...would make Bryan/brj and my job easier there if it was true 

John / Co-Fac.....Critics Circle

[mjosef]

I just read the original thread that sparked this one... what I see is statements taken out of context and hung out to dry...George's post in response to someone else's post was most appropriate IN CONTEXT, since it dealt with system impressions, regardless of the Circle. Taking George's WHOLE response, and not just 30% or even 65%, I cannot see how a reader can view his response as a negative reflection on just the speaker portion of the whole system.
Two things come out of this...first, what really is the purpose of these here "Circles"?  If its just to pat each other on the back and discourage dissenting voices...mhnnn...that does not bode well.
The other part of this is a general observation, people have a tendency to become clannish...its almost like faith based philosophy. I noticed in that particular circle several posters whom didn't even own the speakers praising it, and recommending it to inquiring new posters as though they have intimate knowledge of said speakers. 

So I voted for the truth wherever... once the intent is not to denigrate or in any way diminish another person. This gear aspect of the hobby is about impressions/opinions anyway.

[JohnR]

Interesting thread. I'll just bounce off the last post with a couple of comments...

Two things come out of this...first, what really is the purpose of these here "Circles"?

Um... I dunno, it's better than television?

If its just to pat each other on the back and discourage dissenting voices...mhnnn...that does not bode well.

Well, five and a half years later since the first person said that, and things seem to be basically OK

I guess I don't really understand it when people try and treat this discussion as though it were a site-wide thing. We have general circles, which you are reading right now, and circles for the manufacturers. Expectations are different in each - we've always had that, since the beginning (or shortly after). If one location is inappropriate, there is most likely (ok, with exceptions as expressed in the posting guidelines) another where it is. That seems like a good thing to me... no? 

I guess I could go on, but it's probably pointless. Whatever I say or do (even if it's nothing at all), there are going to be people who will try and find a way to make it sinister or unfair or something (not you, mjosef, or you zybar, just making a point in general).

JohnR

[rockadanny]

My Vote: I don't care what is allowed as long as it isn't vulgar (i.e., can be said to your mother) or bashing (negative viewpoints are not necessarily "bashing").

My Comment: Given the context of the thread and Frank's description, what George said was crass IMO. If George wants to be crass I think he should be allowed.

 

[Rocket]

Hi Guys,

If you can't say what George did without the moderator of that circle and his cronies coming down on you, then it is NOTHING more than a one sided marketing jerkfest.  If you want the good, and the bad to be known, then you won't find it there....

DU is a good hearted person and has a lot of audiophile knowledge.  I do find that particular circle to be a little too one sided but that is life I guess.  I personally don't post there anymore...

I've corresponded with JohnR over a number of years and I even bought some motorcycle parts for him and shipped them to Sydney .  I have a great deal of respect for him in regard to the operation of this audiophile site and in particular how he handled some important changes in recent times.

I personally think that a person should be able to provide honest objective comments regarding equipment.  Most audiophools really don't earn a lot of money and I think that we should assist our mates by providing honest answers to their enquiries.  I usually save up my pennies, going without some of life's pleasures, to fund my new equipment purchases. (and that includes getting my wife to pay for us when we go out to dinner  ).

I've been burnt a couple of times when purchasing products that were recommended from this site by over excited audiophiles regarding different products.  I've learnt some really good lessons over recent times and Zybar is one of the few people that I would actually take advice from.

Best wishes

Rod

[Marbles]

Rocket, well said.

Rockadanny, you have never met my mother.....If I were taking your advice, I could say or post ANYTHING!
(and if she ever had killed someone, I'm sure they deserved it!)

[woodsyi]

I think truth is great but you should not expect it just to be out there literally.   You have to pick them out. 

For example, I will not say the food sucks while I am eating at a host's table.  I will talk about it with my wife later out of the earshot of my child (who would not know any better not to repeat what I say to anybody).  I would try to steer future engagements to my house or at a restaurant.  I would have to get to know the host a lot better before I can say, "man, your food sucks."  I only reserve that for the best of my friends.   

I believe in telling the truth -- just not rudely. 

George,  I am not berating you.   I am only replying in context to the question you have asked on this thread.  I value your opinions whenever and where ever I see them.   

[JohnR]

I think truth is great but you should not expect it just to be out there literally.   You have to pick them out.

Hm, that's a good point. In the end, however it's phrased, everything you read here is really, when it comes down to it, just opinion only.  We're not running the Journal of the AMA here (or whatever).

Rod, thanks for that Believe it or not I haven't been over your way in the last five years

Just so it's clear, this poll is not a vote on policy. Steering Committee has to be involved for that.

[woodsyi]

I think truth is great but you should not expect it just to be out there literally.   You have to pick them out. 

For example, I will not say the food sucks while I am eating at a host's table.  I will talk about it with my wife later out of the earshot of my child (who would not know any better not to repeat what I say to anybody).  I would try to steer future engagements to my house or at a restaurant.  I would have to get to know the host a lot better before I can say, "man, your food sucks."  I only reserve that for the best of my friends.   

I believe in telling the truth -- just not rudely. 

George,  I am not berating you.   I am only replying in context to the question you have asked on this thread.  I value your opinions whenever and where ever I see them.   

P.S.  What do you say when your wife asks you, "how do I look in this dress?"   aa aa

[ohenry]

Obviously Frank S. is tickled shiftless over his system with the SP Tech's and Zybar has another opinion.  Isn't that normal?

I find it interesting that Zybar commands that much credibility.  He's a very experienced and knowledgeable guy, but we all hear a little differently and have our own sonic cues and targets as to what sounds good. 

I suppose Zybar has a higher standard for what constitutes unacceptable criticism in a vendor's circle because of his seemingly unquestionable opinion.  If I were a vendor, a hint of negativity from some of the most respected voices at AC would be a significant event and would ruin my day.  If Zybar was a "nobody", it wouldn't matter nearly as much.

George should still be afforded the opportunity to freely express his opinions without being over-scrutinized.  But that probably ain't happening.

[zybar]

I think truth is great but you should not expect it just to be out there literally.   You have to pick them out. 

For example, I will not say the food sucks while I am eating at a host's table.  I will talk about it with my wife later out of the earshot of my child (who would not know any better not to repeat what I say to anybody).  I would try to steer future engagements to my house or at a restaurant.  I would have to get to know the host a lot better before I can say, "man, your food sucks."  I only reserve that for the best of my friends.   

I believe in telling the truth -- just not rudely. 

George,  I am not berating you.   I am only replying in context to the question you have asked on this thread.  I value your opinions whenever and where ever I see them.   

P.S.  What do you say when your wife asks you, "how do I look in this dress?"   aa aa

I tell her what I think.

I wouldn't have married her otherwise and she doesn't expect anything less.

George

[mfsoa]

P.S.  What do you say when your wife asks you, "how do I look in this dress?"   

If the question is "Do I look fat in this dress?" DO NOT say "It's not the dress"

[Rocket]

Hi,

I guess Zybar commands so much credibility because of the range of gear that has gone thru his system.  Some of which I can only dream of owning  .

I'm firmly on the side of providing honest objective opinions regarding equipment.  Take it from me it really really hurts spending $3-5000au on a component only to regret the purchase a few months later because you don't like the sound.

Its all subjective anyway.

Regards

Rod

[Marbles]

Zybar earned his reputation by trying a lot of equipment and giving his honest opinion of it.

It's not always good, not always bad, just what he likes or doesn't like.

If he says it, he believes it.

It's easy to trust a guy like that.

I feel the same way about Lonewolfny42 as well.

Both have tried enough equipment to know that it is system synergy and not just one component that makes a system great or not...apparently that is lost on many here including those that post in the SP Tech circle.

[MaxCast]

Here are the sentences that are being discussed.
quote author=zybar link=topic=54681.msg496597#msg496597 date=1213110459]
 Sorry to be the dissenting opinion here, but I recently heard Frank's system and I don't think it was better than the previous incarnations.  In fact, I thought it took major steps backward.

Now, before everybody starts flaming me...

Too much gear has changed from system to system at Frank's so I can't confidently say it is one piece of gear or the other.  I just know that to my ears it isn't better.

George 

The problem is that you did not bother to list the other changes that were made to the system, allowing members to form their own conclusion about what may have caused a degradation in quality. If you had done that, it would have precluded that you were IMPLYING the SP Tech product was the offending componet. It also would have been useful to know this combination to allow readers a caution about the lack of synergy. If you had offered more context, the perception would not have been quite so "pot shot"

So how about that as a reply and not simply circling the wagons and attacking me?   aa

George


[/quote]

George, just go back and edit your questionable post and be done with it. 
When you put this in context you are stating your opinion on the system not the individual components-no?

I don't think what George said was in bad taste, however, the dress analogy was a good one.

[ecramer]

Zybar earned his reputation by trying a lot of equipment and giving his honest opinion of it.

It's not always good, not always bad, just what he likes or doesn't like.

If he says it, he believes it.

It's easy to trust a guy like that.

I feel the same way about Lonewolfny42 as well.

Both have tried enough equipment to know that it is system synergy and not just one component that makes a system great or not...apparently that is lost on many here including those that post in the SP Tech circle.

Marbles said it better than i ever could. There are people here on this circle that have heard, tried in there system, have the opportunity to hear more and better equipment that i will ever get the chance to. There opinions on system synergy, good or bad is important to me it allows me to make better choices for my system and saves me $$$$    I see nothing wrong with Zybar's post. As a post on the general sound of the system especially after another post about the same system is not allowed.  Yea if Zybar had said xxx brand of expensive  speakers suck big time and drug the system right in the dirt i would not even use them in the garage that would have been in bad taste to post in the circle

ed

[Eric]

I suppose as with all things it depends on ones motives and the situation. There are times when I have seen people post complaints about a vendor's customer service, and they have not even attempted to contact the vendor directly by phone to resolve.

[miklorsmith]

I appreciate the array of places where exchanges happen here.  The nuances of "this place" versus "there" are understood by some of us but often not by folks looking for information.  If the commercial side only allows positive feedback what is the upshot?  Regulars won't care how many "PHENOMENAL" messages are left because they understand the game.  Less-indoctrinated souls will fall into the "infinite praise" syndrome where every single product is a class leader, undifferentiated from the competition.

This has provided meaningful discourse             how?

[TheChairGuy]

btw, George/zybar, a most rewarding and endearing thing about you is your lack of prejudice and relative neutrality on audio subjects far and wide.

If you like it, you say so.  If you don't, you state it - and generally add reason why (which are helpful to me and others based on responses in this topic).

I just think those valuable opinions are best left on general interest circles (or PM's, or phone calls, etc)....not a vendor's shop.

If you made the same remarks on the Critic's Circle you did on SP Tech's recently...I'd go outta' my way as co-Facilitator to uncircle the wagons of criticism around you.  That's the Critics Circle....and save making personal insults about someone...(substantiated) criticism of audio products is allowed there.

But, not in a vendor's 'store'.  He pays for that 'store', it's an extension of his business and an integral part of his marketing effort(s)....he (the vendor) has the right to escort you from his property and his associates (or customers, in this case) have the right to ask you to tone it down or leave.

Anyhow, I'm not looking to pile on, I just wanted to fully illuminate my stance on the subject.

Regards, John

[Marbles]

To me, Zybars post was meaningless in the context of any single component, including speakers.

The only relevance it had (to me) was:  He liked Franks system better the previous time he heard heard it, rather than the last time he heard it, and there were so many changes he couldn't pinpoint why. 

Other than that I could draw no conclusions.

Looks (again to me) that people were trying to read into Zybars post a lot more than he intended.