[James Tanner]

Hi All,

With the popularity of Torus http://www.toruspower.com/ I am continually asked what size Torus is applicable to my system. I emailed a customer today on this subject and thought others may find it of interest.

The answer relates to 120 volts....  at 240 volts the numbers are cut in half.


Question:
From: Don

Hi James this will be my last question for the Torus's,
As I'll be running 3X7B-ssts and the DD-15 thru the 20a balanced Torus and 2X4Bssts and components thru the 15a Balanced Torus,Do you think any of the Toruses would be strained for power.I would have gotten a 45a before but money wouldn't allow in one shot.

I just want all the amps to not be starving for power,hope that's not to silly of a question.Can the 20a balanced Torus handle 3X7B-ssts with lots in reserve and can the 15a handle the 2X4BSSTS AND COMPONENTS WITH LOTS IN RESERVE.Total I have 35a on 2 separate 240v lines,worsed thing is I'd buy another 20a Torus if these 2 aren't enough.

Couldn't believe the difference when I got the 20a and split amps and components up. Maybe there is more I can get out of another 20a Torus.

Thanks again James,

Don



Answer:
Hi Don,

The general rule of thumb is add up the maximum amperage that each product can absorb at FULL power and divide by 2/3Rd's to 1/2. Reason is most systems are not operating at full power and in multi channel systems the fronts typically are the power hungry ones.

So Example- if your system can absorb a total of 30 amps at full power then 20 amps should be enough under normal operating conditions. BUT – the amount of amperage your system can draw will depend on the LOAD of the speaker in the amps case. So a 4 ohm speaker can draw almost twice the amperage from a 7B that an 8 ohm speaker would.

So lets look at a single 7B:

At Idle   215 Watts
Max. Heat Dissipation   733 Btu/Hr
output @ 600W @ 8 ohms   1284 Watts
Max. Heat Dissipation 8 ohms   2333 Btu/Hr.
output @ 900W @ 4 ohms    1980 Watts
Max. Heat Dissipation   3684 Btu/Hr


As you can see a 7B could draw 1980 watts or 16.5 amps at full power into 4 ohms. If you take 2/3Rd's of that under normal conditions a single 7B would want 10 amps. If you wanted to make sure under any and all conditions that the 7B would not get starved for power you would want to be able to supply the full 16.5 amps.

The 4B is the same as a 7B so your system at 4 ohms could at FULL power potentially draw 5x16.5=82 amps and at  8 ohms 41 amps! 
2/3Rd's of that, which is the rule of thumb, would be 65 amps at 4 ohms and 27 amps at 8 ohms.


James

[rancew]

James-

I'm ready to try a Torus Power Conditioner .  I've got a 4B SST, but plan to upgrade to a 14B SST and have 8 ohm speakers. 

Would a 10A BX unit suffice (preferable due to space concerns) for a 14B, or would I need to move up to a larger unit (which would have to be from the rack mount seires)?

Sorry...I know you're getting pummeled  with these questions about the Torus conditioners, but some of us are a little dense when it comes to the numbers and want to be sure we don't buy a unit that is too small. (Perhaps a table on the website would help???).

Thanks!
Rance

[Phil A]

The specs per my 14BSST manual are listed and are the same as the 7BSST noted above.  So, as noted by James' post above, I'd take it as a 10A BX unit would be pushing it.  If at some point I end up with one in my system, I'm going to get the 15A version.  I'd guess if you have efficient speakers and a small room size and don't listen loudly, you can get by with less.

[KeithA]

The specs per my 14BSST manual are listed and are the same as the 7BSST noted above.  So, as noted by James' post above, I'd take it as a 10A BX unit would be pushing it.  If at some point I end up with one in my system, I'm going to get the 15A version.  I'd guess if you have efficient speakers and a small room size and don't listen loudly, you can get by with less.

I actually just got the 20a version since it was only $200 more than the 15 amp version. I run the 20a version on a 15a circuit with a special 15/20a power cord.

keith

[Phil A]

Keith I have a 20 amp circuit but the builder only used 14 ga. wire (I just requested an extra receptacle on its own circuit when the house was being built 11 yrs. back).  I put in a quality 20 amp receptacle but I can't really get 20 amps with 14 ga. wire - would need 12 ga.  When I put together the power cord for the 14BSST (15 amp) it takes a 20 amp IEC anyway and I used a 20 amp plug too - figured it could not hurt anything.  I auditioned the 20 amp version of the Torus.  Not sure if it would really get me anything more than the 15 amp version as I don't really plan to have rewiring done.  I'd be curious as to James' take on a 20 amp Torus on a 15 amp circuit as to whether you could really do more with it.  Perhaps for a short term peak it might be a bit better.  I'll eventually at some point re-look at the power conditioning I have (and I have a few) at some point down the road. 

[rancew]

The specs per my 14BSST manual are listed and are the same as the 7BSST noted above.  So, as noted by James' post above, I'd take it as a 10A BX unit would be pushing it.  If at some point I end up with one in my system, I'm going to get the 15A version.  I'd guess if you have efficient speakers and a small room size and don't listen loudly, you can get by with less.

Ok...when James said a 4B was the same as a 7B, that make sense to me since the 7B is 600W x1, and the 4B is 300W x 2.  But you're saying that a single 7B 600W mono draw is the same as the 14B 600W per channel two channel amp?  Seems like the 14B would have twice the draw of a 7B.  I'm confused...

[James Tanner]

The specs per my 14BSST manual are listed and are the same as the 7BSST noted above.  So, as noted by James' post above, I'd take it as a 10A BX unit would be pushing it.  If at some point I end up with one in my system, I'm going to get the 15A version.  I'd guess if you have efficient speakers and a small room size and don't listen loudly, you can get by with less.

Ok...when James said a 4B was the same as a 7B, that make sense to me since the 7B is 600W x1, and the 4B is 300W x 2.  But you're saying that a single 7B 600W mono draw is the same as the 14B 600W per channel two channel amp?  Seems like the 14B would have twice the draw of a 7B.  I'm confused...

Hi,

Yes I assume a 14B would be close to a pair of 7B's.  I will check on this on Monday with engineering.
Can you give me what is says in your 14B manual Keith and the serial number. I am thinking it may be older info as we tested and re-rated all our amps when we were developing the Torus products.

james




james

[KeithA]

Keith I have a 20 amp circuit but the builder only used 14 ga. wire (I just requested an extra receptacle on its own circuit when the house was being built 11 yrs. back).  I put in a quality 20 amp receptacle but I can't really get 20 amps with 14 ga. wire - would need 12 ga.  When I put together the power cord for the 14BSST (15 amp) it takes a 20 amp IEC anyway and I used a 20 amp plug too - figured it could not hurt anything.  I auditioned the 20 amp version of the Torus.  Not sure if it would really get me anything more than the 15 amp version as I don't really plan to have rewiring done.  I'd be curious as to James' take on a 20 amp Torus on a 15 amp circuit as to whether you could really do more with it.  Perhaps for a short term peak it might be a bit better.  I'll eventually at some point re-look at the power conditioning I have (and I have a few) at some point down the road. 

Phil, I agree that the 20 amp version will likely not outperform the 15 amp, however, I am planning on installing a 20 amp laine at some point anyway so that why I went that route.

But I concur with you, there is no day-to-day advantage of the 15 vs 20...unless its being driven real hard (the short term peaks you mention).

Keith

[KeithA]

The specs per my 14BSST manual are listed and are the same as the 7BSST noted above.  So, as noted by James' post above, I'd take it as a 10A BX unit would be pushing it.  If at some point I end up with one in my system, I'm going to get the 15A version.  I'd guess if you have efficient speakers and a small room size and don't listen loudly, you can get by with less.

Ok...when James said a 4B was the same as a 7B, that make sense to me since the 7B is 600W x1, and the 4B is 300W x 2.  But you're saying that a single 7B 600W mono draw is the same as the 14B 600W per channel two channel amp?  Seems like the 14B would have twice the draw of a 7B.  I'm confused...

Hi,

Yes I assume a 14B would be close to a pair of 7B's.  I will check on this on Monday with engineering.
Can you give me what is says in your 14B manual Keith and the serial number. I am thinking it may be older info as we tested and re-rated all our amps when we were developing the Torus products.

james




james

James

I'm not sure if this question is directed at Phil A or not, but since I have a 14B I'll give you what mine says...

Mine is Serial #000418 (built mid 2005, I think)

However, the specs on power consumption and heat load are verbatim what you quoted earler for the 7B......so a 14B is the same as a 7B, and not a pair of 7Bs

At Idle   215 Watts
Max. Heat Dissipation   733 Btu/Hr
output @ 600W @ 8 ohms   1284 Watts
Max. Heat Dissipation 8 ohms   2333 Btu/Hr.
output @ 900W @ 4 ohms    1980 Watts
Max. Heat Dissipation   3684 Btu/Hr

Keith

[James Tanner]

The specs per my 14BSST manual are listed and are the same as the 7BSST noted above.  So, as noted by James' post above, I'd take it as a 10A BX unit would be pushing it.  If at some point I end up with one in my system, I'm going to get the 15A version.  I'd guess if you have efficient speakers and a small room size and don't listen loudly, you can get by with less.

Ok...when James said a 4B was the same as a 7B, that make sense to me since the 7B is 600W x1, and the 4B is 300W x 2.  But you're saying that a single 7B 600W mono draw is the same as the 14B 600W per channel two channel amp?  Seems like the 14B would have twice the draw of a 7B.  I'm confused...

Hi,

Yes I assume a 14B would be close to a pair of 7B's.  I will check on this on Monday with engineering.
Can you give me what is says in your 14B manual Keith and the serial number. I am thinking it may be older info as we tested and re-rated all our amps when we were developing the Torus products.

james




james

James

I'm not sure if this question is directed at Phil A or not, but since I have a 14B I'll give you what mine says...

Mine is Serial #000418 (built mid 2005, I think)

However, the specs on power consumption and heat load are verbatim what you quoted earler for the 7B......so a 14B is the same as a 7B, and not a pair of 7Bs

At Idle   215 Watts
Max. Heat Dissipation   733 Btu/Hr
output @ 600W @ 8 ohms   1284 Watts
Max. Heat Dissipation 8 ohms   2333 Btu/Hr.
output @ 900W @ 4 ohms    1980 Watts
Max. Heat Dissipation   3684 Btu/Hr

Keith

Hi Keith,

No that doesn't compute - I am going to look into this.

james

[KeithA]

While I'm looking at the final checkout sheet for my 14B.....in the lower left hand corner there is a red stamp 'HI-POT CERTIFIED' and someone's initials. This is not on my 6B checkout sheet...

Just curious as to what it stands for?

Keith

[Phil A]

As I noted earlier, mine lists the same specs as James noted for a single 7B per the manual.  I forget my exact serial no.  (it is in the low 100s) and I sent it in not that long ago for the Swedish upgrade done starting with serial no. 505.  It also says the same thing in the current online manual (which is from Oct. 2006) - http://www.bryston.ca/BrystonSite05/pdfs/SSTAmplifiers/14Bsst_MANUAL_20061026.pdf

[Phil A]

While I'm looking at the final checkout sheet for my 14B.....in the lower left hand corner there is a red stamp 'HI-POT CERTIFIED' and someone's initials. This is not on my 6B checkout sheet...

Just curious as to what it stands for?

Keith

Unless I'm smoking something - mine does not have that - of course mine was signed by the inspector on December 18, 2002.

[Phil A]

http://electronic-components.globalspec.com/LearnMore/Electrical_Electronic_Components/Electrical_Testing_Equipment/Hipot_Testers

“
If it appears alone, it means that the product is certified for the Canadian market, ...”

“Hipot testers are electrical safety test devices that perform electrical compliance tests. Within the general category of electrical safety testing are a variety of equipment types that are specifically designed to test for electrical compliance. The individual equipment defines the kind of test performed.  Types of measurement performed by hipot testers include AC dielectric strength, DC dielectric strength, arc detection or tracking, insulation resistance, AC/DC selectable, and earth continuity.  An AC dielectric test measures the withstand capability of an insulator.  A DC dielectric test measures the withstand capability of an insulator.  Arc detection looks for external break-over during a test cycle.  Insulation resistance measures the resistance of an insulator or insulation during a test.  Some test equipment can measure both AC and DC inputs.  Earth continuity devices test electrical and electronic instruments and appliances to make sure they are functioning properly.  Electrical instruments that are substandard could fail and transfer dangerous current to their users.
The most important specifications to consider when searching for hipot testers include AC and DC output voltage, AC and DC output current, resistance range, insulation limit, and test time.  Output voltage can either be AC or DC. The type of test will determine what level of voltage will be supplied. For example: in hipot testing the output voltage is usually very high.  Output current can either be AC or DC. The type of test will determine what level of current will be supplied. For example: in hipot testing the output current is usually very low.  Testers can also measure the resistance range.  The insulation limit specification determines the voltage range the insulator can withstand.  Many tests performed for electrical safety have a test time requirement. This is the overall time of the test.”

[KeithA]

I'm sure it doesn't mean the inspector was 'certified to be high on pot'

[splittailz]

maybe he works for that giant fertilizer company up in Canada, POTash.

I would have to believe a 14 would draw the better part of a 15 amp circuit.
I set up my power delivery system with each amp on its own 20 amp circuit and an extra 20 amp circuit for the linestage, players, subwoofers, TV etc. probably overkill, but it seems to work. everything comes out of the wall 240 volt.

[James Tanner]

The specs per my 14BSST manual are listed and are the same as the 7BSST noted above.  So, as noted by James' post above, I'd take it as a 10A BX unit would be pushing it.  If at some point I end up with one in my system, I'm going to get the 15A version.  I'd guess if you have efficient speakers and a small room size and don't listen loudly, you can get by with less.

Ok...when James said a 4B was the same as a 7B, that make sense to me since the 7B is 600W x1, and the 4B is 300W x 2.  But you're saying that a single 7B 600W mono draw is the same as the 14B 600W per channel two channel amp?  Seems like the 14B would have twice the draw of a 7B.  I'm confused...

Hi,

Yes I assume a 14B would be close to a pair of 7B's.  I will check on this on Monday with engineering.
Can you give me what is says in your 14B manual Keith and the serial number. I am thinking it may be older info as we tested and re-rated all our amps when we were developing the Torus products.

james




james

James

I'm not sure if this question is directed at Phil A or not, but since I have a 14B I'll give you what mine says...

Mine is Serial #000418 (built mid 2005, I think)

However, the specs on power consumption and heat load are verbatim what you quoted earler for the 7B......so a 14B is the same as a 7B, and not a pair of 7Bs

At Idle   215 Watts
Max. Heat Dissipation   733 Btu/Hr
output @ 600W @ 8 ohms   1284 Watts
Max. Heat Dissipation 8 ohms   2333 Btu/Hr.
output @ 900W @ 4 ohms    1980 Watts
Max. Heat Dissipation   3684 Btu/Hr

Keith

Hi Keith,

No that doesn't compute - I am going to look into this.

james

Hi All,

Ok I looked into this and the reason the 14B manual has the same rating as the 7B is because the 120V/15 amp wall plug is the limitation.  For safety reasons (in fact 12 amps though he power cord is the limitation by CSA-and UL) we can only quote the maximum wattage available from the single 15 amp/120 volt circuit.

Obviously 'peak-power' on short term transients can be much higher.

So if you wanted maximum power delivery to a set of speakers you would choose 2-7B's plugged into completely different 15 amp circuits rather than 1 -14B.

james

[Gary Listen]

James,

On a related issue regarding power cords, I was told by a manufacturing representative of a power cord company that the only relevance of the 20A/15A ratings is for safety reasons --to make sure there is no industrial mistake in plugging a 20A pull product into only a 15A capable circuit.

He stated that the connections themselves are all that is different in most all power cords and power distribution products and have no relation to the maximum current draw or pull- through capability. For instance, if you have a 30A circuit in your AC panel and 10 gauge or bigger wire in wall, that full 30A will pass through a 15A rated outlet and 15 or 20 A rated connections. We use the 20A IEC on our products only because it is a better and tighter connection than using a 15A IEC inlet.  All our power cords are capable of delivering 20A or more of current if required because they are all 12 gauge or larger. The connection rating does not determine maximum current capability at all. They merely represent standardized UL safety ratings and have no relevance to current delivery or performance.

Do you agree with this analysis?

Thanks,

Gary

[James Tanner]

James,

On a related issue regarding power cords, I was told by a manufacturing representative of a power cord company that the only relevance of the 20A/15A ratings is for safety reasons --to make sure there is no industrial mistake in plugging a 20A pull product into only a 15A capable circuit.

He stated that the connections themselves are all that is different in most all power cords and power distribution products and have no relation to the maximum current draw or pull- through capability. For instance, if you have a 30A circuit in your AC panel and 10 gauge or bigger wire in wall, that full 30A will pass through a 15A rated outlet and 15 or 20 A rated connections. We use the 20A IEC on our products only because it is a better and tighter connection than using a 15A IEC inlet.  All our power cords are capable of delivering 20A or more of current if required because they are all 12 gauge or larger. The connection rating does not determine maximum current capability at all. They merely represent standardized UL safety ratings and have no relevance to current delivery or performance.

Do you agree with this analysis?

Thanks,

Gary

Hi Gary,

Your over my head on this one - I will look into it.

james

[James Tanner]

James,

On a related issue regarding power cords, I was told by a manufacturing representative of a power cord company that the only relevance of the 20A/15A ratings is for safety reasons --to make sure there is no industrial mistake in plugging a 20A pull product into only a 15A capable circuit.

He stated that the connections themselves are all that is different in most all power cords and power distribution products and have no relation to the maximum current draw or pull- through capability. For instance, if you have a 30A circuit in your AC panel and 10 gauge or bigger wire in wall, that full 30A will pass through a 15A rated outlet and 15 or 20 A rated connections. We use the 20A IEC on our products only because it is a better and tighter connection than using a 15A IEC inlet.  All our power cords are capable of delivering 20A or more of current if required because they are all 12 gauge or larger. The connection rating does not determine maximum current capability at all. They merely represent standardized UL safety ratings and have no relevance to current delivery or performance.

Do you agree with this analysis?

Thanks,

Gary

Hi Gary,

OK from engineering - the plug and wire in the wall is capable of many times the safety rating.  For EX a 15 amp circuit, 'short term' could draw 100 amps or more. It is illegal though to install a 15 amp receptacle (Nema 5-15) on a residential circuit with a 30 amp breaker.

james