[BobRex]

Actually though, BobRex, a Lexus is basically a gussied-up Toyota.

And the appeal of Lexus is......?

The Lexus line is only a gussied up Toyota to a point, yes the ES is a Camry, but there really isn't an IS equivelant, nor is there an LS equiv.  Everybody that buys a Lexus knows they are buying from Toyota (or they should), but for some reason, possibly those I mentioned, they gravitated towards the higher end version.  

Brian, you had mentioned that you are for whatever is the Lexus equivelant in audio, all I did was try to define what the equivelant might be. Yes, I know exactly what a Lexus is, and I know its reliability record.  So back to the point at hand, what brands best posess the same qualities that make Lexus so desirable (although not be me, I prefer German cars)?  My point is that when you look at the entire package, Mac may be one of the few companies that can match the Lexus "mystique".

[Thebiker]

Meanwhile, back at the starting point of high-end gear reliability.... aa

I worked for almost nine years for a well known mid-fi/home theater retailer in New England selling Marantz, HK, Pioneer (at one point), Onkyo and Sony.  Like all salemen in that scenario, accomodations for sales is common and utilized, especially by me.  This covered the time frame of DVD just getting started.  My first player, a 2nd generation Sony was bullet-proof.  I gave it to my daughter and replaced it just to get the DTS capability from the new (way more expensive) Marantz.  Total piece of junk.  Lasted me less than a year before it started skipping, not reading brand new discs etc.  Sent it back to Marantz, 8 weeks later they shipped it back....SSDD. Still had the same problems.  Got a spiff for a Sony jukebox 200 cd changer.  Worked great for about 4 months.  It stopped sensing discs.  Took in into the local Sony service/distribution center.  Five months and multiple phone calls later they shipped me a brand new unit with a note stating that they couldn't find out why the first one didn't function properly.  I sold the new unit without ever opening the box.

My point - its not high end issues, its everywhere.  High end, mid-fi, boom boxes.  The high-end buyer is just more (usually) articulate and vocal because of the $'s involved.  The guy with the boom box just pitches it, spends $30-60 and gets a new one.

My 2 channel gear is where I spend the most money and even then I tend to be cautious.  I know that there are many credible, honest and hard working vendors out there with good products.  I tend to stay with the larger ones because it does not rely on just 1 or 2 people to solve an issue.  Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that a reason for a lack of a fast response was the guy in charge was at the Munich show.  If he wants to grow, the vendors have to be at the big shows.  Be visible or die, real simple.

That's why my pricey toys are from Cary and Manley.  The big guys can go to the shows and demo their latest and greatest, but service and support are still available to those that need it.  That said, my Cary SLI-80 has never done anything strange and my Manley issues turned out to be tube related and that was diagnosed with a phone call to a most excellent service/call-in center.  Maybe my toys don't qualify as high end by some standards here at AC, but they sound damn fine to me and serve me well.

Walt

[BobRex]

Actually biker, from a service standpoint, I always found that the mass produced stuff (Sony, Marantz, Pioneer, Technics...) had miserable service records.  I worked in a store that actually did service work (do these still exist or does everybody just send stuff to service depots?) and we had a difficult time getting parts to repair many of these brands.  You'd place an order and almost have to wait for the proverbial "slow boat" for delivery.  That wasn't the case with most of the high-end companies we sold (cj, Threshold, VPI, VTL, PSA...)

[Thebiker]

I know what you mean about part availability.  I was with Cambridge Soundworks as a part time salesman, primarily for the toy discounts.  We had a service department and getting parts in was miserable and customers were massively unhappy with wait times because of it. 

We didn't sell high end toys, but the contacts made while there got me some serious professional contacts with professional courtesy discounts .

Walt

[Steve]

"Some of the smaller "cottage" firms may lack the ability to test and weed out the problem samples from their small production runs and rely on the patience of the customer while they get their act together."

I think this brings up an interesting point. There are different types of failures.

1) There are the failures where a part just fails, whether noise or opens up, or shorts out. I need to state the parts are run well within their specs, but even military parts can fail. But it should be rare.

2) Another kind of failure is caused by just plain poor designing/engineering. The engineer may not understand the design and specs may be exceeded. Initial conditions may be something they don't understand or expect.

Imo, a well designed piece of gear should last and with stand some rough treatment.

Cheers.

[dogorman]

As the advancer of the Lexus analogy, let me first commend those who've taken upon themselves to defend it.

What I was intending to suggest has nothing to do with whether a Lexus is a gussied-up Toyota, made on an assembly line, what-have-you.

My intention was to point out that they'll never win any particular category, but their design philosophy is that you'll get most of the way to a "purist" piece, without the headaches. If, as one respondent suggested, McIntosh is the name that does the same thing in high-end audio, that would be news to me as I don't have any direct experience with their stuff, good or bad.

But the person who said the comparison is unfair because outrageously-priced high-end audio equipment is made by hand rather overlooks the fact that this is my whole point: why do I *have* to choose between a purist, boutiquy piece that's made by hand and comes complete with all the associated bugs, or a low-end product from an assembly line? The fact that the comparison to Lexus is so automatically unfair is the whole thrust of my argument: why aren't there any home audio lines out there being built with the same design philosophy?

[goldlizsts]

From what I remember Pinto wasn't that bad.  I think it was Chevy Vega that was really bad.

We probably forgot Pintos with exploding gas tanks when hit from the gas tank side.

[Wayner]

Because the world revolves around volume. I've spent 37 years in manufacturing. It's a bitch. There are always supplier problems. There are always due date problems. There are always conformance problems. Unless you have the ability to manufacture in high volumes, and have people to manage all of the problems and deal with them, the assembly line will come to a halt.

There are many very successful hi-end manufacturers. Many are small. The owners usually manage everything.

Wayner

[BrianM]

The flaw in the Lexus-McIntosh analogy is that Lexus is offered at a bargain price relative to its luxury-performance competitors.  Luxury is integral to how we value and experience high-end autos in a way that doesn't transfer to high-end audio, fancy bejeweled chassis notwithstanding.  So McIntosh may convey a sense of the finer things to its customers but in terms of its competitive performance it's overpriced IMO.  In terms of its reliability I couldn't comment.

And Pintos were very bad, they sometimes exploded on impact.

Also wanted to respond to dogorman:

What I was intending to suggest has nothing to do with whether a Lexus is a gussied-up Toyota, made on an assembly line, what-have-you.

My intention was to point out that they'll never win any particular category, but their design philosophy is that you'll get most of the way to a "purist" piece, without the headaches. If, as one respondent suggested, McIntosh is the name that does the same thing in high-end audio, that would be news to me as I don't have any direct experience with their stuff, good or bad.

The fact that Lexus is built by a company that originally made its way with lower-priced cars, having perfected that assembly process as much as possible, is the point.  Having made their economical cars very reliable it was a relatively small step to rolling out reliable luxury; the system was already in place and had left them with the extra cash to branch out.  So Lexus being a "gussied-up" Toyota, whether that oversimplifies things or not, is relevant.  (And originally, that is ALL they were.)

But I personally don't think reliable well-made choices are altogether lacking in high-end audio.  If one wanted something nearer to perfection, though, one might try to imitate Toyota's model.  Sell a large volume of good quality over-achieving budget components and then use that success as a platform for the higher-end stuff.

[dogorman]

Okay, I follow: What we need is an Onkyo "emblem" that caters to the uncompromising ear -- and whose products can be chuntered down the same assembly lines. Heck, I've even got the name: OMEGA TECHNOLOGIES.  No charge, Onkyo -- it's on me. 

[BrianM]

What we need is an Onkyo "emblem" that caters to the uncompromising ear -- and whose products can be chuntered down the same assembly lines.

What we REALLY need would be comparable demand for high-end audio products to that for luxury autos...If there were big profits to be made from 2-channel hifi I seriously doubt companies like Onkyo or Sony wouldn't be neck deep in it.  But it doesn't seem like history is heading that way....

[dogorman]

I agree -- the personal computer revolution seems to have brought with it a willingness to put up with things that aren't of particularly high performance or reliability, as long as they're new and cool-looking. (How many of us would have put up with a phone that cost $50 a month and into which you had to should 'hello?!!' a dozen times, in 1978?)

And in home audio that means ridiculously compressed mp3's, muddy home theater, and down-market single chassis solutions. All of which is about as far from the idea of a "Lexus" home audio philosophy as the industry could possibly get without passing the rest of the way out of business.

It's my personal theory that this is all Bill Gates' fault: he introduced us to the idea of bringing home from the store something expensive and heavy and that occasionally just ceases out of the clear blue sky to work.

Still, I can't help thinking there's a business angle in all of this, somewhere....

[BrianM]

Still, I can't help thinking there's a business angle in all of this, somewhere....

Well, I think it's mainly for the small-scale cottage industry types...maybe except where speakers are concerned, where your Wilsons or B&Ws or whathaveyou can carve out a relatively sizable, stable niche for themselves amongst the well to do and/or recording pros.  I don't seem to notice bigger footprints like that with (higher end) stereo components.  I'm not terribly informed on how the market share shakes out, though, just guessing.  Maybe excepting Bryston which is popular in pro audio?  But the requirements of audiophilia are still too fussy for most people.  People want convenience, both for music and computing, which allows for buying less reliable throwaway items as long as they're immediately affordable and easy to use.

[Mister Pig]

Okay, I follow: What we need is an Onkyo "emblem" that caters to the uncompromising ear

That has already been done. Remember the M-510 Grand Integra? One of the finest SS amplifiers produced in the early 90's. Even got praised by Absolute Sound and Stereophile as I recall. Believe the amp sold for 5K. I don't believe it ever sold very well, but it's quite rare on the used market. It is still highly respected.

TEAC built a high end CD player during this time frame too. It was at the cutting edge of technology, and priced accordingly. The ZD-5000, which sold for 1K or maybe it was 1.2K. Very good sound, once again liked by the mags of the time. Didn't sell well either.

These are a couple of examples that I can recall, I am sure there are more. Audiophiles value sound quality above all other things, and are willing to overlook appearance, convenience, and sometimes reliability. They have long ago decided that mainstream Japanese electronic companies are interested in earning a profit, and not building cutting edge electronics. So they eschew buying it, no matter whose name is on it.

Although one area they make exceptions are is CD players, um and phono cartridges.

Regards
Mister Pig

[Wayner]

The single reason high end costs so much is the fact that they produce so very few units. They have no way to pay for expensive tooling, that would ultimately bring the price down, if they had high volumes. Much of the reason "high end" is high priced is because of their volume (units) of sale. When you are able to buy in bulk....like 10,000 pieces or 100,000 pieces, you get one hell of a price break as apposed to buying 50 pieces. To most other support industries, these low volumes are a pain in the ass and actually could cause a loss. To avoid loss to the low volume customer, they offset it by using a high sell divider. Example: if you buy 1,000 pieces, I'll charge you $8.96 for each piece. If you buy 50 pieces, the cost will be $37.28 each.

To survive as a high performace audio manufacturer, you must have the product line designed across the range of the product line to maximize part usage.

Wayner

[dogorman]

I don't doubt that any of these grim realities are unavoidable in the high-end audio space (indeed, as an economics teacher, how could I?), but I do seem to want to think that we've lost the thread of the thread (as it were), somewhere in the discussion. Specifically, I'm not convinced that having to pay $37.46 for your capacitors instead of $8.59 is a sufficient explanation for why the stuff seems to have so many temperamental performance problems. Indeed, I am inclined to wonder if such an explanation wouldn't be quoted by the very manufacturers whose performance issues are being indicted by the original suggestion -- and if that wouldn't constitute a change-of-subject, on their part?

Maybe the fault is mine with my Lexus analogy, but with all due respect to the other posters in this forum, I fail to see why volume-discounts on parts enables the Lexus to perform at a higher rate of product reliability than my Naim integrated amp.

Nay, the reason the Lexus performs better is because it was designed to perform better. The folks at Toyota said, "Our bread-and-butter customer is someone who values reliability above wringing that last ten percent of wow-factor out of something quirky like a Volkswagen, so we're going to make a luxury car that values reliability over wringing that last ten percent of wow-factor out of something quirky like a Bentley."

...None of which, it seems to me, is a function of whether or not they're getting volume discounts for parts.  Indeed, it seems to me, the problem is that the high-end manufacturers in home audio aren't being held to a high enough performance standard by their customers. In other words, I think the reason there's a reliability problem in high-end audio (and I for one certainly think that there is) is because we continue to put up with it.

[Marbles]

The Lexus has little or no cutting edge technology.  It has few bells and whistles compared to say a TOL Buick.  It has tried and true technology using the best parts.

The cottage industry products often push the edge of technology and design to get the best driving experience or listening experience and those are the sorts of products that often develop problems.

Sometimes, as in the case of the original poster (I believe) one product upstream killed the amps downstream. 

That is the Modwright pre-amp was probably turned off or on when the amps were on and sent a DC spike that killed the amps.  I don't believe this makes the amps poorly designed...I'm sure that Dan has corrected this design oversight in the last few years.

[Steve]

I agree with Dogorman if I understand him correctly, that the design can be completely safe and totally reliable and still exhibit extraordinary/reference sonic quality.

A possible exception might be if a spike from an upstream component over loaded an amp, blowing a fuse or arcing an output tube. Another is if there were major AC power issues. I have seen the AC voltage reach 145 volts due to a power substation transformer failure. However, by itself, self failure is caused by other issues.
 
1st, parts that are either operated near or at their maximum ratings, whether power, voltage or current. This is a designer's problem.

2nd, the engineers did not account for or did not understand "initial conditions" or the worse case senario. 

3rd, it is true a part can fail because it simply failed, even under very light conditons, and even with military grade parts, which would cause problems. But that is self destruction and is very rare with military grade components. (say 1 per 1000 or less.) Other parts, though, may fail in such a matter a little more often.

As such, I agree with Dogorman comments.

(As a safety comment for newbies to audio, it is important to apply power to the upstream component before a downstream component and when power down the downstream component before the upstream component.)

Cheers.
Steve

[dogorman]

I would only add that one of the places I notice it the most is in amateur reviews. People log in to various websites and write these six-paragraph puff pieces about how something sounds, and then when I get a chance to try the same piece of gear in my own house, it doesn't reliably work. Sounds great when it does, generates peels of howling laughter from my friends when it doesn't. Not my idea of a cost-is-no-object solution to home entertainment, thank you very much.

I've been dragging Naim through the mud in this thread, in this regard (trust me, they deserve it), but I've also had the same frustration to varying degrees with products made by many other vendors. My McCormack MAP-1 preamp is a great-sounding and even more ingenious solution to the whole two-channel vs. six-channel tradeoff, but the interface is so buggy that I've nearly blown up my speakers about a half a dozen times in the three months or so that I've owned the bloody thing.

Still, I am really intrigued by the post'er who suggested McIntosh as a standard-bearer for rugged performance, not least because this isn't the first time I've heard it said about their stuff. What does everyone else think? A guy walks into a stereo shop and says, "I have essentially unlimited budget, but I want the stuff to sound decent and never, ever, ever make a fool out of me in front of my houseguests.  McIntosh?

[BobRex]

You have to be careful with the idea of never, ever, ever...  Anything can break at any time, even a Lexus / Toyota.  The key is if it does break, can it be fixed quickly and correctly.  Yes, Mac is durable, but I did have a few pieces that needed repair work - not as many as some other popular (at the time) brands, but a piece every once and a while (and we were a Mac dealer.)  I do know of many full Mac installations where once the piece was panlocked into the cabinet, it was never moved and worked for years and years.  I don't know how it is now, but it used to be that Mac had stringent service requirements for its dealers.  If you bought Mac from a certified dealer, that dealer would be able to fix virtually anything that came up.  None of this - "We gotta ship it to a depot (or worse overseas)." crap.