[satfrat]

Mike, if there are brands out there that do, I want to know about them. My original intent in joining this discussion (before it deteriorated into defending myself against charges of being unhappy out of ignorance about how to use the stuff) was to find out which emblems might be analogous.

That being said, I'm still smarting over here at the suggestion that I've conjured an unfair analogy on the basis of not knowing what I'm talking about, so bear with me a moment while I make this counter-argument, please: My current rig is a McCormack DNA-HT5 and MAP-1. I bought them of my own free-will and they sound terrific. Before anyone else says either of those two things.

But you know, the HT5 is a very, very hot connection: an input impedance so high and an input sensitivity so low that it would really be tailor-made for passive preamplification. But it's a five-channel amp. And aside from the fact that you can't generate rear-channel ambiance with passive circuitry, the question seems not have even come up before these two products were brought to market. Unless someone knows of a McCormack-built, passive, six-channel preamp, what we've got here is the perfect-storm-negation of the argument that the customer is responsible for his own dissatisfaction because he doesn't adequately understand how the stuff works. They sound fine but they're a bad match on the basis of very technical parameters with which others have tried to bludgeon me into believing that my dissatisfaction is born of naivety about how the stuff is supposed to work. And they're marketed as a freaking set.

Very few of us would you put up with someone at Sears telling us that our refrigerator doesn't keep things adequately cool because we're not getting sufficiently clean power coming into it from the wall. I'll bet it happens from time to time (indeed, when it does, I'll bet the salesman is right), but I'll bet it doesn't happen as often as it does in high-end audio, either. By a freaking longshot.

Indeed there are high-end refrigerators that just simply and unpretentiously, well, gosh, WORK. There are high-end musical instruments that work. There are high-end laptop computers that work. There are high-end aircraft, high-end kitchen appliances, high-end boats, high-end telescopes, high-end firearms -- all of them made under specific manufacturing emblems that instantly convey the notion of, "first, above all else, work properly every time. Worry about everything else, second. First of all, work." In each of these product spaces, the "high-end, but perform at all costs" customer I alluded to before, has at least one good choice.

If there are emblems out there in high-end audio that meet this design criteria as their prime directive, I'm all ears. 

Just because you're having issues with your gear doesn't make all high end gear unreliable. Sorry to hear about your issues but you my friend are in the minority here and as such you can expect to get flak over making statements as "The expensive stuff performs reliably, or it doesn't. In the world of cars, there's an expensive brand that does. In the audio world, there isn't." That simply isn't the case and as free as you are to make these statements, there are those who are just as free to criticize them. Don't take them personal please.


Cheers,
Robin

[dogorman]

Well, I don't take them personally, you're just wrong.   

How many thousands upon thousands of dollars are spent every year on power reconditioners? RF filters? Isolation dampers? How many discussion threads are active in this very community here, to say nothing of Audiogon, Audio Review, the Audio Asylum, etc., in which people are trying to troubleshoot these very same sorts of issues? I mean, don't take this personally either, there, RedSox fan, but I should like to point out that I didn't even start this thread; someone else did.

As I have submitted several times now, the reason more people aren't up-in-arms about the temperamental performance of high-end audio gear isn't because high-end audio gear isn't temperamental: it's because they've drunk the kool-aid that says, (1) if you're having trouble it's because you don't understand how the stuff works, (2) the high-end audio manufacturers should be held to a different performance standard because its a cottage industry, (3) it should be fun to have stuff that doesn't do what you expect it to, because then you get to change it.

As an economics teacher, it's my view that people get the consumer products they deserve. If a corporate mantra that says we should expect buggy gear is allowed to prevail, then the only choices out there will be buggy gear. So no, with all due respect, I don't think other people aren't having problems. I think other people aren't sufficiently pissed off about it when they do. (Personally I think the PC got people inured to the idea of expensive stuff that periodically ceases to function, but I suppose that's a whole other thread.)

I mean, gosh, you could say that I'm the only person who has ever experienced a problem with a cell phones -- but in fact the truth is very slightly yet importantly different: I seem to be the only person who minds having problems with cell phones, when he does.

[satfrat]

Well, I don't take them personally, you're just wrong.   

How many thousands upon thousands of dollars are spent every year on power reconditioners? RF filters? Isolation dampers? How many discussion threads are active in this very community here, to say nothing of Audiogon, Audio Review, the Audio Asylum, etc., in which people are trying to troubleshoot these very same sorts of issues? I mean, don't take this personally either, there, RedSox fan, but I should like to point out that I didn't even start this thread; someone else did.

As I have submitted several times now, the reason more people aren't up-in-arms about the temperamental performance of high-end audio gear isn't because high-end audio gear isn't temperamental: it's because they've drunk the kool-aid that says, (1) if you're having trouble it's because you don't understand how the stuff works, (2) the high-end audio manufacturers should be held to a different performance standard because its a cottage industry, (3) it should be fun to have stuff that doesn't do what you expect it to, because then you get to change it.

As an economics teacher, it's my view that people get the consumer products they deserve. If a corporate mantra that says we should expect buggy gear is allowed to prevail, then the only choices out there will be buggy gear. So no, with all due respect, I don't think other people aren't having problems. I think other people aren't sufficiently pissed off about it when they do. (Personally I think the PC got people inured to the idea of expensive stuff that periodically ceases to function, but I suppose that's a whole other thread.)

I mean, gosh, you could say that I'm the only person who has ever experienced a problem with a cell phones -- but in fact the truth is very slightly yet importantly different: I seem to be the only person who minds having problems with cell phones, when he does.

    OK, you are right.

[hdspeakerman]

McIntosh MC2100 - Purchased in 1975.  Used daily.  One repair to the switch that changes output from mono to stereo.
I submit that this is a reliable piece of equipment from a company that values reliability.
Howard

[dogorman]

Alright, now we're talkin': We've got three votes for Mac.

Like I've been saying, if there's stuff out there that fits this description, I want to know about it.

...The added benefit is that you can get an entire rig with the Mac name on it, not just amp and preamp.

[JerryM]

I do research for a living. I have for many years. When I am done doing research on any particular matter, I get to go talk with a man in a black robe who is generally not to pleased that the topic at hand is being explained to him. I either get it right, or I am kindly explained why my employer owes gobs of money to someone else.

I applied the same research principle to buying my gear. I read posts, product manuals, reviews, rants, praise, everything for months. By the time I made a selection, I was willing to bet my own gobs of money that I had it right. While I have not had my system long enough to comment on its longevity, my research tells me that the odds are long and tough that something will ever go wrong.

In voicing your frustration you have asked an intelligent question here. Do not take anything that anybody tells you at face value. Read about each piece of equipment. Find the forums for those pieces. See what the users say, and what help they are asking for. Find the threads that hate the equipment you are looking for (Tip: If you can't find such a thread, that's a good sign) Do honest research. Pretend you are dealing with someone else's money or, more aptly, the last of yours. Do not make a choice until you honestly believe that you, and no one else, has made a well thought out and educated decision.

This worked for me. I hope it works for you, too.

Have fun,

Jerry

[dogorman]

Well I definitely recognized some names in your collection of gear, there. I heard the RTA11's in 1991 and they still stand out in my mind, particularly for their high frequencies, which were being made by an amazing soft-dome tweeter that looked metallic; I think it was called the SL3000, if I remember correctly.

I also use some speaker cables and interconnects by Blue Jeans, so that was a nice validation of a previous choice, to see that name down there in the fine print.

[hdspeakerman]

About 5 years ago I bought an MC7300.  It was about 15 years old. Never have had a problem. I also have a C26 preamp that is the same age as the 2100.  Never had a problem.  I once had a sevice manager at a shop tell me that my 2100 was not worth repairing just because the mono/stereo switch stuck after being in one position for 30 years.  The switch is fixed now but he is gone.  You decide!

[dogorman]

Does Mac make a multichannel preamp, or is it all pre/pro's vs. 2-channel?

[hdspeakerman]

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/Power-Amplifiers.asp
MC205 - 5 channel amp 5x200 watts
Unsure about multi channel pre amp

[Ericus Rex]

Go with NAD.  It has alot in common with your beloved Lexus: higher grade version from bread-and-butter manufacturer (Onkyo, I think), reliable, moderately priced.  If you want to compare high end cars with high end audio you should be thinking Bentley or Ferrari.  Lexus is the upper-mid or lower high-end of cars...like NAD is in audio.  And I can't imagine either of those high end cars being reliable.

But there are a few good manufacturers of reliable equipment.  My Music Reference equipment is bullet proof (so far, knock on wood), I haven't had an issue with my Pass amp.  They do exist in this business, you just have to look for them (unfortunately) and not impulsively buy the latest greatest thing which may not yet have a track record.

[woodsyi]

I think they have debugged everything for Pentium IV.  It's also obsolete.     Digital is moving too fast, it seems, to wait for a "mature" product. 

[BrianM]

If you want to compare high end cars with high end audio you should be thinking Bentley or Ferrari.  Lexus is the upper-mid or lower high-end of cars...like NAD is in audio.  And I can't imagine either of those high end cars being reliable.

So as long as someone is building a $300,000 car, or $30,000 amp, the rest has to get defined downwards.  To most people, as you're no doubt aware, Lexus is a high end car, and a Bentley or Ferrari doesn't so much suggest "car" as "conspicuous, extravagant toy for the super-rich."  Kind of like $30,000 amps come to think of it.

[Mike Dzurko]

First, I don’t think we’ve yet defined high-end. It isn’t just how expensive it is. There is of course “mass market”, and "limited distribution product", and "product from small manufacturers". I don’t think there are black and white definitions of what constitutes any of the above, a lot of grey area here.

In 31 years in this industry I’ve never seen any serious data or studies showing stats on reliability.

Just some of the equipment I’ve owned or used extensively without problems:
Muse, Musical Fidelity, AVA, Sonic Frontiers, Primaluna, Audio Research, Rega, Crown (Macro Ref), Korato, Halo, Denon, Marantz, PS Audio, B&K, Threshold, Luxman, Rotel, and assorted modified gear.

Others have mentioned NAD, so I’ll mention that one of the biggest problems I’ve had was with a NAD piece.  Took six months to get it fixed.

I know for a fact that our speakers are extremely reliable. For example, I cannot remember the last time someone fried one of our tweeters. Warranty claims are extremely rare. Even beyond warranty inquires for repair are a very small number. Interestingly, a few customers have had multiple driver failures. One recording studio managed to destroy two Sapphire XL woofers in less than 6 months. I was later told by someone who had spent a lot of time in that studio that they were being pushed to insane levels for 12 hours + /day. They preferred them to their $60,000 custom built-in system and cranked the crap out of them all day long.

In the end, it’s pretty hard to make any definite statements about brand reliability. As others have said, it is best to do as much research as possible before purchase, from as many sources as possible.

Now computers, don't get me going

[Steve]

I do research for a living. I have for many years. When I am done doing research on any particular matter, I get to go talk with a man in a black robe who is generally not to pleased that the topic at hand is being explained to him. I either get it right, or I am kindly explained why my employer owes gobs of money to someone else.

I applied the same research principle to buying my gear. I read posts, product manuals, reviews, rants, praise, everything for months. By the time I made a selection, I was willing to bet my own gobs of money that I had it right. While I have not had my system long enough to comment on its longevity, my research tells me that the odds are long and tough that something will ever go wrong.

In voicing your frustration you have asked an intelligent question here. Do not take anything that anybody tells you at face value. Read about each piece of equipment. Find the forums for those pieces. See what the users say, and what help they are asking for. Find the threads that hate the equipment you are looking for (Tip: If you can't find such a thread, that's a good sign) Do honest research. Pretend you are dealing with someone else's money or, more aptly, the last of yours. Do not make a choice until you honestly believe that you, and no one else, has made a well thought out and educated decision.

This worked for me. I hope it works for you, too.

Have fun,

Jerry

Excellent post Jerry. Seems very sensible and down to earth advice. Thanks.