Small musical subs: DefTech SuperCube, ACI Force, etc

Jay S · « **on:** 22 Oct 2003, 03:30 am »

I'm thinking of getting a small musical sub to reinforce the low bass of my nOrh 9.0s (-3 dB at 33Hz, -10dB at 29Hz), which I will continue to run full-range. I listen mostly to music, but have been watching more DVDs ever since my wife and I bought seasons 1 and 2 of "24"!!

Does anyone have experience with the Definitive Technology SuperCube (I or II) or the ACI Force? Both are small enough for me to place between my main speakers. I'm especially interested in the SuperCube, which has a 1250 watt digital amp which could result in excellent bass control. I wonder if the SuperCube is servo'd...

The sub needs to be fast and musical -- no slow bloated fuzzy bass, please! My priority is to give more body and impact to kick drums, double basses and pianos, not necessarily give the illusion that T-Rexes are stomping through my living room.

Rated specs indicate that both the SuperCube and Force have better low end extension than my 9.0s and have low-pass XOs that go low enough (35 Hz for the Force, 40 Hz for the SuperCube) to integrate well with my main speakers.

In an ideal world I'd have a couple of VMPS Larger subs but the reality is that VMPS or REL ST series subs won't fit in my room... not without significant WAF issues!

Thanks!

- Jay

vpolineni · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 Oct 2003, 03:49 am »

check out diycable.com's new sub coming out.. should be just the sub you're looking for:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=4793

Tyson · « **Reply #2 on:** 22 Oct 2003, 04:02 am »

The Adire Audio Rava is gonna blow the doors of the Def Tech, and probably the Force too. Do NOT pay any attention to the specs published by Def Tech, they are optimistic at best, flat out lies at worst.

Tyson · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Oct 2003, 04:03 am »

Oh yes, forgot about the sub kevin is making, that should pretty much destroy even the RAVA (it has a MUCH better driver). And it's still small.

Jay S · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Oct 2003, 04:15 am »

Thanks for the inputs. I guess small is a relative term. A Rava is probably too big for me. I'd like something smaller than a 16" cube (plus legs). I could get a custom sub in that form factor using a Stryke AV12 12" driver (Q = 0.6) but prefer something smaller so that I can put it between my main speakers.

I would normally be skeptical of DefTech, but their new SuperCube subs seem to be getting good feedback. The ACI Force has been very well reviewed for its musicality and is from a respected audiophile name.

Kevin's new sub will no doubt be incredible, but I can't imagine shipping a 130 lb sub all the way to Hong Kong.

Tyson · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 Oct 2003, 04:31 am »

I have also heard the Vandersteen subs (three 8" drivers in each sub). They will go loud, are small, and sound very good.

bubba966 · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 Oct 2003, 04:43 am »

Jay,

Ask Danny what sub he was running in his room at VSAC. I don't recall who was building it. But it had the Adire XBL_2 driver (10"), was powered, was very small, and was terribly impressive. It sounded awesome in his setup with the A/V-3's. I could not believe that such a small sub was putting out that much bass so clean & tight. I don't see how you could be dissappointed with it.

It's output was as much, or more than my 12" M&K. All the while being very clean. It kills all of the Def Tech subs I've listened to. It also killed the Rel's I've expereinced.

And it's only $599!

Jay S · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 Oct 2003, 10:14 am »

Brian, thanks a lot for the tip. I've sent an email to Danny to get more info on the sub... if it beats the REL then it should be great in terms of performance. Price is great. I just hope it is nice and small.

I've also taken Roop's suggestion and am doing some web research on VBT subs. Frankly, the shape is perfect for where I plan to place the sub (in front of my system, partially hidden by some throw pillows).

Thanks!

- Jay

MaxCast · « **Reply #8 on:** 22 Oct 2003, 12:23 pm »

Make sure you check out the crossover and slope of these subs if you ever plan on using it with your 9's and leave the 9's run full range. Not a problem if you use for HT and the ~80Hz xo.

Hantra · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 Oct 2003, 12:59 pm »

I'm going to check out the MJ Acoustics I think. I have been reading lots about them, and people rave about them. Even the mags say they are as good or better than the REL's. And at the price, if they are as good, that will be amazing. . .

B

Cens · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Oct 2003, 01:28 pm »

Don't kow what your price range is but you may want to check out the Von Schweikert VRS/1 (or something like that) sub ($1500 list). It is small, fast, and very musical. If I didn't already have a Strata III, I would go for the VS in my system.

Regards,

Chris

Jay S · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 Oct 2003, 03:01 pm »

Thanks for the suggestion. The Von Schweikert is nice and small (looks to be about 12" w x 15" d x 12" h and the available wood finishes are very nice. System Q seems a bit high though (1.0) and the low pass XO is a 2nd order design (4th order would be preferable), though cutoff is nice and low at 40 Hz. In spite of the high Q, does it seem very quick and musical? I'm not into movies so musical harmonics are more important than explosions. Thanks.

Jay S · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 Oct 2003, 03:09 pm »

At first glance, the MJ Acoustics subs seem like REL clones at a much lower price... and I mean that in a good way! I'll continue reading....

Cens · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 Oct 2003, 03:23 pm »

Quote

In spite of the high Q, does it seem very quick and musical? I'm not into movies so musical harmonics are more important than explosions. Thanks.

I'm not into HT subs either (yet) and look for musicality. I heard the small VS sub matched with the VS VR1 monitors (which are quick and musical themselves IMO -- note: I own a pair) driven by the Pass Labs X350 and found the sub to match the speed and musicality quite well. Not sure how it would work out in your room/system, but it might be worth a try if you can.

Regards,

Chris[/quote]

KevinW · « **Reply #14 on:** 22 Oct 2003, 04:13 pm »

Quote from: bubba966

Ask Danny what sub he was running in his room at VSAC. I don't recall who was building it. But it had the Adire XBL_2 driver (10"), was powered, was very small, and was terribly impressive.

That is the Creative Sound EZSUBPB10200
www.creativesound.ca

$529 US for a kit. That's hard to beat. The Adire XBL2 drivers are quite special. Very clean, tight musical bass, and no problem going low in any kind of enclosure.

TheeeChosenOne · « **Reply #15 on:** 22 Oct 2003, 05:03 pm »

Jay,
I have the ACI Force sub in one of my rooms. It is very tight and musical.
I also chose it for its small size. Craftmanship is superb.

Its reputation is well deserved. A great price to boot.

Sorry I can't lend more input than what you've already heard/read about it already.

EProvenzano · « **Reply #16 on:** 22 Oct 2003, 09:20 pm »

Hi Jay,
I have some words of advise.
Regardless of which sub you choose, if you continue running your mains full range, you will require a 4th order slope and at least a 30hz minimum xo point.
You will find that any plate amp with 2nd order xo, and an xo point higher than 30 will produce lots of response well into the range of your mains.
You will end up with bloated bass and mid-bass.
I know from experience. My 1801's f3 is 40hz. With a plate amp xo'ed at 40hz I had a very noticable hump in my bass response.
I did end up doing some tweaking to my PE plate amp to modifiy it to 4th order and 30hz cut off. This was much better. Still not perfect....
I ended up going with a Marchand XM44 to get it perfect...more on that later.

Good luck.

audiojerry · « **Reply #17 on:** 22 Oct 2003, 10:00 pm »

I'll probably get abused again...but my two $175 Yamaha YST-SW205 work beautifully with my $5k Dynaudio Monitors. Seamless integration, fast, great bottom end, and nice and small. Far better than my former Vandersteen. I have two Earthquake Super Nova's and two Bag End Infra-18. I much prefer the Yamaha's for 2 channel audio.

doug s. · « **Reply #18 on:** 23 Oct 2003, 02:25 am »

the only abuse ya get from me, jerry, is that ya haven't upgraded to the $250 yst-sw305's - i'm dieing to hear what somebody w/a good ear tinks of 'em!

doug s.

Jay S · « **Reply #19 on:** 23 Oct 2003, 06:39 am »

Good point re: the low pass XO frequency and the XO slope. My nOrh 9.0s are spec'ed to begin to rolloff at 35Hz, -3dB at 33Hz, and -10dB at 29Hz. I am not sure what the low pass XO frequency should be on the sub to integrate well with the 9.0....

Here are the specs of the sub amps/XOs I'm looking at now:

..............................Low pass...Order....Phase control
Hypex HS-200..........50 Hz........4th.......0 or 180
ACI sub amp............35 Hz........4th.......0-180 (continuous)
DefTech SuperCube..40 Hz........4th.......0-180 (continuous)
VBT-200...................50 Hz........4th......0 or 180
Paradigm X-30..........35 Hz........3rd......0-180 (continuous)

The specs of the VBT are a bit odd... the website says that frequence is -12dB at 50Hz. The review in 6moons says that the low pass XO frequency is 80 Hz, with a slope of -30dB/octave. The bottom half of the graphic below is the frequency response chart.

All things being equal, a low low-pass frequency, 4th order filter, with continuously variable phase control would be desirable. The ACI sub amp (in the Force) seems to fit the bill the best. In terms of packaging, the VBT sub may work best (in terms of WAF).

I've included the Paradigm X-30 external XO. If I went that route I could use my Le Amps as sub amps.

I'll appreciate any help/suggestions you guys may have on this. I have no experience with subs.http://