[JohnR]

What's that in the lower left, and can you close it off?

[Hantra]

What's that in the lower left, and can you close it off?

It's just a vanity area for the bathroom back there.  I could easily close it off.  I guess it's worth a shot.

Thanks!

B

[toxteth ogrady]

Hi

I've come to the conclusion that based upon your room dimensions, your speakers should be positioned on the long wall. With your current setup, using the Audio Physic placement metod as a reference, your speakers should be farther into the room and you should not be sitting next to a doorway. I suggest at least trying this method as I had a similar room whith horrible results until I tried their method. It was startling how transparent and how well proportioned the bass was after my monitors were properly placed. Soundstaging from this kind of setup is spectacular and will even make mediocre speakers shine. The disadvantage, of course, is that your speakers are halfway into the room, which shouldn't be a problem if you don't live with your significant other. Give it a try, I promise the results will be night and day from what you're hearing now.

http://www.immediasound.com/Speakersetup.html

If you follow the directions precisely you will know when they are setup properly - everything will just lock in place.

Good luck!

[Hantra]

Dang.   I did the exact Immedia method, and it didn't work.  I mean. . . Vocals sounded eerily real, but the speakers were too far apart, and other things were very directional.

That was on the short wall though. . .

Thanks for the tip.  I might have to try it. .

B

[mb]

Rob:

Not sure what you mean by not trying to fill the dips in response.  The Behringers I have seen are similar to the Tact, and correct room deficiencies in the digital domain.  Isn't that the whole purpose of getting one to fill in the dips, and roll off the peaks?

Thanks for the advice!

B

I've heard the Piegas in a dealer showroom (positive impression), and have been using a Behringer for a while to address room modes, so here's my $0.02 to add to the points above:
- I'm pretty sure that the Piegas can excite room modes down to 30+ Hz. They are extended, and even if they fall of earlier, as long as have enough energy to excite a mode, the slow decay will exxagerate the note
- the general consensus with digital eq in home audio is to apply filters to address resonance peaks, but *not* to fill the suckouts, as our ears are less sensitive to the suckouts. In practical terms, boosting the dips also adds load to the amp, and reduces your digital dynamic range (a little).

If your ceiling height is 10-11', then the L and W dimensions are all close enough to be fairly troublesome, I expect. Carefully applied digital eq can help, imho. My Behringer is used to address floor/ceiling mode of 56 Hz. Very deep (-11dB or so), because of concrete floor/ceiling. To address this with trap(s) would take up lots of space. In addition, so smaller modes (3-6dB) betw 36-120Hz are being addressed.

[Psychicanimal]

I do not think adding a sub (or two) will help improve your situation-especially if you use something like VMPS.    Equalizers wil not do much to help at this point either.

[JoshK]

I do not think adding a sub (or two) will help improve your situation-especially if you use something like VMPS.    Equalizers wil not do much to help at this point either.

What will then?  Oh please, do tell and inform us all!

[JoshK]

Dude, do you have any corner treatments?  Might be the first place to start.  To test, try taking something reflective like a book and placing it in the corners, test for any noticeable improvement.

[Andrikos]

I know this sounds really stupid but my friend who has Legacy audio Focus (that go down to 16Hz!!) was complaining about non existent bass.

Well, he had them set up as "SMALL" on his receiver and totally relied on bass using the LF Extreme sub. Anyway, little idiotic things like that happen. I'm sure you're not doing it, but I just wanted to make sure...

[Psychicanimal]

What will then?  Oh please, do tell and inform us all!

Dude, do you have any corner treatments?

There you go!  Someone finally starts asking the right questions.

If you ask the wrong question you might get the right answer to the wrong question.  Now Josh, think some more and try to answer why I say subs will make things worse and eq's will be of no help at this point?

[JoshK]

PA,

I know where you were going with that already. I posted because your posts, without something positive to add (meaning an plausible solution), just seem to be a smart ass post.  Hence I was being sarcastic towards you.

[Psychicanimal]

PA,

...your posts, without something positive to add (meaning an plausible solution), just seem to be a smart ass post.

They are not.  My posts are made to induce reasoning.  Otherwise they would be just another *opinion* in an anonymous forum.  There's no free ride w/me.

Lack of reasoning is evident everywhere--just look at how people attack the 1200.  There's no reasoning behind such attacks and at the same those people swear by decks that are technologically mediocre.  Yeah, right.

[Ferdi]

Hi Hantra, that sounds like a nasty problem. Will make you lose sleep and such.

Lot's of different suggestions were made. Without offering any theory why this would work better, I suggest moving your speakers to the one of the long walls. If it were my room, I would place the speakers so that the opening is to the right rear of the listening position.

If you try this, or another significant change from the current setup, you may find some interesting differences that help in solving your problems. Until you know what the problem is, I would not throw money at it.

Good luck and please post further experiences.

Ferdi

[Hantra]

Dude, do you have any corner treatments?

Dude I have 8th Nerve corner treatments, Seams, Framed Response Controllers, and Echos.  Part of the difficulty is that CARA doesn't have a facility for including things like this, and you will have to build it yourself in CARA.  Not knowing what the response of the materials are, it's hard to model treatments in CARA.  So this might be why CARA is of no help to me.

Thanks for the advice guys,

B

[Tyson]

None of the 8th nerve products will affect bass, they simply don't absorb enough to affect those big ass bass frequencies.  Why not just get a "loaner" sub from a local hi-fi or HT store and try it out with your speakers.  I'm certain with a sub you will not have any "no-bass" problems.

[Hantra]

Why not just get a "loaner" sub

I'm picking one up this afternoon.  So would you recommend putting the speakers BACK where they have no bass, but everything is locked in when I add the sub?  

Thanks,

B

[pretzel_logic]

I agree with the poster about placing the speakers on the long wall.  I didn't see what your room dimensions are, looked a couple times and still didn't see.  I gave up on CARA and all those other ways to get the perfect sound, impossible without the perfect room.  I have a terrible room, 12x20x8 and when I had my speakers on the short wall the sound was awful.  I was always moving my chair around trying to get in the bass zone and then the mids and highs were behind me.  

I don't utilize the whole room now, my chair is centered in about a 14x12 section of the room with the other area used for my desk and hifi equip, on the opposite wall an exterier door as well as an entrance to the kitchen.  Definitely not the perfect setup but it works a lot better than before.  My speakers are about 16" from the wall and my chair is about 7 or 8 feet from them a foot off the wall.  I'm trying to find some type of partition to block off the hifi rack from the speakers as the rack is about 18" from the right speaker and on the other side there is a blanket chest about 18" from the left speaker.

I'm hoping to turn my detached garage into a sound room at some point, has to be attached to the house first but for now I'm just dealing with what I have.

Brian

[toxteth ogrady]

I had some free time yesterday evening and while my wife was out I repositioned my speakers according to the Audio Physic method. I wish I could keep them that way because the soundstage is enormous - much wider and with more depth and space than anything I've heard using the short wall. Alas I must appease the wifey so the speakers are back again, closer to the wall.

You mentioned that sounds were too directional when you tried this method. The secret to getting your speakers to completely disappear is to use pretty extreme toe-in - like the drivers pointing a couple of feet in front of the listening chair. When I first tried setting up my speakers this way I remember thinking how ridiculous it was having the speakers toed in so much, but that was what made all the difference.

The great thing about setting up your speakers this way is that it uses the room to reinforce the bass(appropriate given the nature of your problem), greatly minimizes problems with reflections, and of course it's free! No extra subwoofers and with the room treatments you already have you should be able to get amazing sound.

One caveat is that you absolutely have to follow the steps in order as listed on the website. Try it, you'll be rewarded for your effort.

t ogrady

[Tyson]

Hantra,
Put the speakers where the sound best normally, then experiment with the sub placment to get the most even blend.  A corner placement will get you the most bass, but putting the sub against a wall halfway between the speakers will probably make blending easier.

Also make sure to get a sub with a good built in crossover, preferable 3rd or 4th order.  Using a steep crossover like that will let you run the sub up to 80hz and not have localization problems.

Another thing to keep in mind is that many times the crossover markings on subs are wildly inaccurate.  It may "say" 60hz on the knob, but in realilty the crossover is working at 90hz!!  Just experiment an tune by ear.

Also, play with reversing the phase switch to help get the best blend.  If you can get a 2nd person to flip the phase back & forth while you listen to some bass heavy music you can tell which setting is correct pretty easily - whichever setting is louder is the correct setting.

[Marbles]

Also it sounds like you are sitting in a bass void area.

If you can, when you first get the sub, put it as close as you can to where your listening position is.  Then walk all over the room with an SPL meter.  Make sure you go along the walls as well as other areas.  Where the SPL meter registers the loudest is where you will get the most bass (but not necessarily the "best" bass) and where you should first try experimenting with the sub.

If those instructions aren't very clear, just let me know and I can go into more detail.