[lcrim]

Barry:
I was about to post this and my Co-Facilitator TCG had a long post as well. I took a few minutes to sort out my thoughts so I'm going to post this:

I just took a look at your system and the posts on this thread.  I can see that you have a desire for quality and  if I follow your explanation, you want to have an analog front end entirely separate from your tact setup and which therefore won't be able to take advantage of any of the room correction/speaker correction capabilities being used in the Tact processed environment.  You are going to feed your amp and your speakers directly without the digital processing, that you have become used to listening to. 
I would urge you to rethink this move.  I am not trying to be derogatory of you in any way, I just don't feel it would not be a very good fit for you.  Judging by how immersed in digital processing your present setup is, the addition of a very different kind of source which as has been pointed out requires a lot of very active human involvement, may very well not be to your liking.  How do you feel about cleaning LP's, anyone serious about playing records has a vacuum cleaning machine and a favorite regimen and opinions about what cleaning solutions to use.  You will need to learn how to setup a TT and a tonearm/cartridge to achieve the best results.  Getting up to flip or change the record every 15 to 20 minutes is a necessary part of the package.
Getting into analog is a great deal like getting into a relationship.  Its a lot of effort but to those of us who prefer this source, its more than worth it.  There is however a lot more stuff to do to make it work well.  If digital playback isn't doing it for you anymore then you are headed in a good direction.  If you quickly discover that analog is more trouble than rewarding then hopefully you will be realistic.  It isn't for everybody.
Let us know how it works out.

[WGH]

I would agree that a pre-amp with a build in phono section would be a great way to start out, possibly cheaper than separates too. If you discover you love what vinyl does then you can decide what upgrade path to take. One of the best thing about vinyl is all the fantastic music available for just a few bucks at used record stores and swap meets. If you have to buy everything new then your new love is going to get very expensive very quickly.

But nothing beats finding a pristine copy of Mingus by Joni Mitchell for $5 and putting it on the plater for the first time. Digital will never sound this good.

[twitch54]

I'm looking at that TT seriously.. aa aa  but the seller's recent two negative feedbacks worries me a little.

Be very carefull when buying a used TT which requires shipment as opposed to local pickup. I would be Ultra leary if the original packing material and box was not still present. TT's, escpecially dust covers are prone to shipment damage even when supposed "care is taken" !

[woodsyi]

Barry,

If you are intersted, I will lend you a starter set up and give you a few LPs to get a taste of vinyl.  I will send you a Basis 1400 with Incognito rewired Rega 250 with Expressimo counterweight.  Ear 834P (has volume adjustment) and Benz-Micro MC3 cartridge are with Gooberdude who apparently has a new job that's taking all his time.  I can ask him to send them to you.   It's a fairly simple and a sturdy one to set up.  I am sure you can find some one near Houston to lend you/aid you with set up tools and such.  There are no strings attached although if you want them we can work something out.  This is now my third table which has no place on the rack.  Actually, you do have to pay for shipping.  If you want to drive to Virginia I can give you hundreds of LP from pop to jazz to classical.  I tend to scour the Craig's List and buy whole collections.  For example look at this ad, http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/emd/605278124.html Looks like there is room for cash discount too.  Friends and relatives also just give me theirs knowing I like and appreciate them.  So I have a lot of duplicates. Last one must have had at least 300 with Oscar Peterson.   Let me know if you are interested. 

P.S.  Read up on these articles if you are really serious. http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/d.pl?audio/faq.html#vinyl

[Brad]

Lcrim - good point on the room correction of the TACT.  Listening to vinyl would be different enough anyway - without the effect of the TACT.


The Mapletree I suggested does have its own volume control, so wouldn't need separate preamp - that was part of keeping it simple.

Woodsyi - that's a very generous offer and some nice gear.  Barry - I'd be happy to help you dial it in if you take him up on the offer.

WGH - agree on the used vinyl.  Nothing like picking up a pristine copy in the $1 rack!

[AliG]

Guys..thanks for all the excellent advice so far. I am 'aware' of all the hassle, but I haven't yet "experienced" them hands-on Right now, the followings are on top of my shopping list:

phono preamp - The PS Audio GCPH modified by Underwood HiFi (I also like the AVA preamp because it has option of tone control but it's more expensive).

TT - possibly the VPI  (see http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=HW-SCOUT9D20H )

Cleaning machine - VPI-16.5 (looking for a used unit)

Let me know if anyone can come up with a better and cheaper combo, I bet Woodsyi's offer would definitely give the above list a good run for the money  I checked the review on Basis 1400 on possitive feedback http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue2/basis.htm , the reviewer thought it sounded a little sterile but he doped it with E.A.R834P and it went great. Does anyone know how the VPI setup sounds relative to the Bass 1400, I'm not looking for which one is better, but rather a description of sonic differences?

I guess I am lucky, I have some friends around Houston (like Brad) who're very willing to help newbie like me to get started.

And thanks so much to Woodsyi for your kind offer,  I am speechless!!!  My experience with digital front is that good quality is really hard to come by, most of the new recordings are overly compressed. To my ear, the digital front requires some significant tube-dosage, and still they sound like "digital"

Best regards
barry

[AliG]

Hey Woodsyi, your offer is too good to say no, I have no problem paying shipping for your stuff. But I need to ask you a question, the E.A.R 834P has been receiving rave reviews in the past, and I see that you owns a ModWright + a bunch of other preamp. What kind of difference do you hear in these preamp?? Thanks
barry

[woodsyi]

Barry,

The three phono preamp that I own, Art Audio Vinyl One, MW SWLP and Ear 834P, are all good preamps of reasonable price without the Jewelry premiums, which you are forced to pay at the next level.  I try to avoid that if I can.  Vinyl One is a keeper as it mates really well with my Koetsu to bring out some serious mid range bloom. (Can you say vocal magic?)  I tried the Vinyl Reference but I prefer the Vinyl One (with Tele tubes). BTW, Joe Fratus at Art Audio makes some seriously good stuff.  The MW SWLP has balls.  It's fast and tight with good extension both ways.  It's got tube mojo especially with the Mullard rectifier but none of the bloom (non-linearity?).  It's excellent with complex music.  Ear 834p is a versatile unit.  Tube rolling will change it's sound.  (I got some Tele, Mullard, Amperex and Valvo if you want) It doesn't do anything spectacular but it does all things well.

[AliG]

Woodsyi, thanks for the detailed description for those preamp. I can appreciate why you need two or three different rig for different kind of recordings. Because I'm facing the same problem here - no two recordings are created equal, people can spend a lot of money tweaking their rig to sound best on human vocal but it may not cut it when it comes to more complicated recordings (a lot of different instruments). Which is why I liked the tone-control in the AVA preamp because it gives me additional flexibility (like my Tact unit does) to fine-tune the sound to suit different recordings.

Before I ask you to ship me your stuff, I gotta to make sure that I have some basic cleaning accessories so I don't screw up the LP. This coming Sunday I will pay a visit to a friend's house and he will teach me about LP cleaning.

[TheChairGuy]

Hey Woodsyi, your offer is too good to say no, I have no problem paying shipping for your stuff.
barry

Yeah, we all spell Mother Theresa as w-o-o-d-s-y-i here at the vinyl circle 

I would think that combo a fantastic opportunity for you to hear and explore vinyl as a newbie.

I STILL like spending your money 

Regards, John

[Wayner]

All right Barry,

I've heard enough of the other guys bla-bla-bla. I'm doing the vinyl thing right now...it's awesome. It's time for a course correction.

Here is the new suggestion:

A KAB modified Technics SL-1200TT with lcrims' favorite cartridge. Do the tonearm wire mod and the silicone trough addition. This table has been in production for 30 years, has had the most dollars invested in tooling (IMO) of any table in the history of tables, and will belt out anything rivaling any of your digital stuff.

Also, most LP's after about 1985-6-7 are digitally recorded. You will be amazed at how they sound. Case in point is my new $1.00 copy of GTR. It sounds nothing like it's CD cousin. The reverb goes to the neighbors house and back!!!!

Go check out KAB's website.

Wayner

[AliG]

Hi Wayner, so do you mean most LP made after 1985 sounds very good? Is "digitally recorded" a good thing? Sorry, I know I am ignorant..

Also, most LP's after about 1985-6-7 are digitally recorded. You will be amazed at how they sound. Case in point is my new $1.00 copy of GTR. It sounds nothing like it's CD cousin. The reverb goes to the neighbors house and back!!!!

Wayner

[Scottdazzle]

AliG,

Recorded digitally means you might as well by the cd instead. The same goes for digitally mastered.  The whole point of vinyl is to get the analog sound all the way from recording to listening. Regarding record cleaning, the VPI 16.5 is the best purchase I ever made.  Records that look dirty in the used bins come to life after a VPI cleaning.  Kudos to Woodsyi for showing me the path to clean, quiet records. Happy listening!

Scott

[AliG]

Hey Woodsyi The MOTHER TERESA  

   Are you sure you wouldn't mind shipping me all that stuffs? Turntables looks like a very delicate piece of mechanical art. I'm not sure how likely it is to be damaged by UPS/FedEx shipping.

   I went to see a VPI dealer yesterday, a good friend of mine, he tempted me to get a Soutmaster with Signature tonearm and the SDS which cost a freaking $3900 excluding a cart  

   What I'm tempting to do is if I manage to get your stuff I can bring it to his store and do a shootout.

   Thanks and best regards
   barry

Hey Woodsyi, your offer is too good to say no, I have no problem paying shipping for your stuff.
barry

Yeah, we all spell Mother Theresa as w-o-o-d-s-y-i here at the vinyl circle 

I would think that combo a fantastic opportunity for you to hear and explore vinyl as a newbie.

I STILL like spending your money 

Regards, John

[Wayner]

Barry,

I have many LP's both digitally mastered and analog mastered. The digital sounds great, which proves in my mind that the DA converters are the week link in digital playback. That is why people like Frank Van Alstine continue to try and improve the DA devices. I will put up some digitally mastered LP's up against any analog LP's anyday. It is the vinyl playback mechanism that smooths out any digital hash. Dire Straights Brothers in Arms is a good example of this. The LP crushes the CD in soundstage and the bass line is more realistic as the CD sounds little "rappy" if you know what I mean.

I will bet there are alot of vinyl lovers that have no idea that they are listening to a digitally mastered piece, not a clue.

[Brad]

Barry - who in town carries VPI?
Audio Concepts?

I bought my MMF-5 from them a few years ago.
I like my current Empire quite a bit better than the '5.

If you get the 16.5 cleaner, you might have an occasional visitor who wants to clean some of his vinyl
I have the basic manual Nitty Gritty cleaner, which still does a decent job.
One of the guys I work with (3 analog rigs, closing in on 10,000 albums) went for the Loricraft cleaner, which is probably justified in his case...

[fsimms]

have many LP's both digitally mastered and analog mastered. The digital sounds great, which proves in my mind that the DA converters are the week link in digital playback.

I have a Tact preamp that digitizes my vinyl with an input AD and then outputs it to my amp via it's DA.  I can't tell any problems with those extra conversions.

Bob

[AliG]

Sound World Audio at Bellaire Blvd.. he's kind of a friend, but that's the tricky bit, if I ask for too much discount I feel bad..

Barry - who in town carries VPI?
Audio Concepts?

I bought my MMF-5 from them a few years ago.
I like my current Empire quite a bit better than the '5.

If you get the 16.5 cleaner, you might have an occasional visitor who wants to clean some of his vinyl
I have the basic manual Nitty Gritty cleaner, which still does a decent job.
One of the guys I work with (3 analog rigs, closing in on 10,000 albums) went for the Loricraft cleaner, which is probably justified in his case...

[woodsyi]

Hey Woodsyi The MOTHER TERESA 

   Are you sure you wouldn't mind shipping me all that stuffs? Turntables looks like a very delicate piece of mechanical art. I'm not sure how likely it is to be damaged by UPS/FedEx shipping.

   I went to see a VPI dealer yesterday, he tempted me to get a Soutmaster with Signature tonearm and the SDS which cost a freaking $3900 excluding a cart 

   What I'm tempting to do is if I manage to get your stuff I can bring it to his store and do a shootout to see how on earth VPI can justify that crazy price.

   Thanks and best regards
   barry

Barry,

Basis 1400, a non suspended table, is a pretty sturdy piece and should ship fine with the right packing.  It's also a very easy table to put together including the arm.  You may need a little help setting up the cartridge as that is the trickiest part in any TT set up.  EAR 834 has fixed loading for MC and it works fine with the Benz Micro Cartridge. 

[AliG]

All,
  I have spent the last few days doing research on Vinyl rigs. I need people to educate me on the benefits of low output cartridges. The PS Audio phono preamp suggested by THECHAIRGUY can only use cartridges with output > 0.8 mV.

  I wonder what would I lose if I never touch low output cartridges?

  Thanks for your time.

  barry