[AliG]

Guys,
  I've done everything I can do to my digital rigs, I just don't think I can make it sound any better. Now I'm thinking about getting into Vinyl. I have absolutely no experience in Vinyl, I have listened casually to Vinyl recordings but I have never operated a turntable.

 My speakers is Salk Veracity HT3 and my amp is Moscode 401HR. What I need now is a TT and a preamp. I am trying to make a decision on getting a good preamp, and then taking my time getting familiar with all the nuts and bolts of TT.  I've read a lot of review/opinions about the favourite preamps in this forum (Modwright, SAS, AVA), I am pretty sure I can live with any of them, the question is, should I buy the preamp with built-in phono or I should get a separate phono preamp?? Being absolutely new to this Vinyl stuff, I have no clue about what TT brand or what phono preamp brands are good out there, hence I will probably need your and advice later. And my budget for TT, phono stage, preamp is about $5k.

  Any comments/opinions are welcome! Thanks.

  barry
  Houston, TX

[Wayner]

I can sure recommend any of Franks preamps with the optional phono section. I have the OmegaStar EC (all options) except remote, and the T8 all tube preamp with phono and remote. Both are equally pleasant and very revealing. Of course these preamps offer 47k impedance for Moving Magnetic cartridges (Audio Technica, Grado) and can handle high output Moving Coil (2.5mv) like Sumiko offers. The background is black, the dynamics are fast and the audible range is complete. Recordings with nice bass with shine through as it was ment to be. All AVA preamps are highly recommended, and as you sound like your looking for a new preamp, getting one with the phono option only makes good economic sense.

Wayner 

[WGH]

If you decide on a new pre-amp without a phono option or just want to use your existing pre-amp, then the Hagerman Cornet2 phono pre-amp is an excellent choice. You would have to pay a lot more to get anything better.

[ricmon]

I can sure recommend any of Franks preamps with the optional phono section. I have the OmegaStar EC (all options) except remote, and the T8 all tube preamp with phono and remote. Both are equally pleasant and very revealing. Of course these preamps offer 47k impedance for Moving Magnetic cartridges (Audio Technica, Grado) and can handle high output Moving Coil (2.5mv) like Sumiko offers. The background is black, the dynamics are fast and the audible range is complete. Recordings with nice bass with shine through as it was ment to be. All AVA preamps are highly recommended, and as you sound like your looking for a new preamp, getting one with the phono option only makes good economic sense.

Wayner 

Not only is Wayner right but a built in phono section will eliminate the audiophile neurosis of missing with cables, power cords ect...  However if you settle on the AVA or any tube phone pre you may find yourself rolling tubes in the phone section as things change with different tubes.  My TR7 is a blast.

[Brad]

Hey Barry,

You are welcome to come over to the house to hear my vinyl rig and open baffle speakers.
(There will be tubes involved  )

Your budget is a little different than mine, but you can definitely get a good feel for it.
In that range, I'd take a look at the new Modwright, either the preamp with built in phono or the separate stage.
Allen Wright's JLTI is supposed to sound terrific, under $2k phono stage.

Deciding between MM/HOMC and LOMC will help your direction too.
What are you thinking for Turntable and cartridge?

What are you using for a preamp now?   If you like it, just get a separate phono stage.

[toocool4]

If you can get to listen to as many different combination as possible you will have a better idea of good and bad ways of doing it.

I personally go the separate Phono stage / Pre amp route.

A lot of Pre amps do not come with phono stage these days for a good reason. Pre amps and phono stages are probably the 2 most difficult pieces to design in an audio chain. For these reason most pre amps don’t come with a phono stage as a big chunk of the budget needs to be devoted to creating a good phono stage. Since most users don’t have Vinyl players they resent paying for what they will not use.
A lot of pre amps that include phono stage tend to put them in as an afterthought so most are about as good as using the free interconnect that comes in the box. As you know, nobody uses the interconnect that comes in the box.

To get the best out of your vinyl player get yourself a good Pre amp and get a good separate phono stage.

Chris

[woodsyi]

Barry,

Are you keeping your Tact for digital?  And as brad says, let's look at the overall picture.  What TT/arm/cart are you considering and how much are you allocating for this?

This will be fun to build a system vicariously. 

[AliG]

Thanks to all that'd replied. I forgot to mention about my current preamp for my digital source, it's a fully modified Tact 2.0S, I like it very much and have no intention of leaving it out of my digital rig. The problem with this preamp is it cannot accept analog input (it's a DAC+preamp 2 in 1 package). I can add a ADC card to take analog input but it doesn't make any sense to me to convert analog signal from TT to digital and then re-convert it back to analog with a DAC again.

So the new analog preamp I am looking for will only be used with the TT rig. I'm not sure if spending $3k + on e.g. a Modwright with Phono input is a wise decision, perhaps with that kind of money I can get a very good phono preamp with volume control to go directly into my amp??  

I really have no idea what TT+tonearm+cartridge to buy, perhaps I would start with a Rega P5? And 90$ of cartridge is MC type right? Or if someone can suggest anything better and cheaper I'll be all up for it too.

I had a look at the Hagerman website, the cornet2 is sold in kit/2..but I'm no DIYer..

Thanks
barry

[TheChairGuy]

Barry,

If your looking for standalone phono preamp with volume control...you might want to consider the GCPH from PS Audio.  It's solid state, dual mono, priced well at $995, substantial power supplies, fully balanced and has a range of gain and loading options to play around.  The new version is even remote controlled....and it has a dedicated volume control to run straight to your amp.

Underwood Hi Fi mods these and offer them for $1400...and they still have PS Audio's 'blessings' and have a full warranty on them after modding.  PS Audio started their business with phono pre-amps 30 years ago, although it's a very small slice of their product portfolio now.

It'll leave you plenty left for deck and cartridge and probably a great choice for an analog-only set-up.  A review from 10 Audio on it was very positive: http://www.10audio.com/psaud_gcph.htm

Good luck - John

[Wayner]

Frank has a brand new Ultra phono preamp ready to go....$800 + tax & shipping.

http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/used/used.htm

This is one hell of a unit.

Wayner 

[AliG]

Hmmm......I like that PS Audio unit recommended by John (TheChairGuy), I also like the Ultra Phono Preamp that Frank is selling....damned...with no chance of listening to them both, I will have a tough time deciding..

Does that Ultra Phono Preamp unit have volume control?? It's not stated on Frank's website.

[twitch54]

Alot of good replies so far....now I've got a question or two ??....... am I correct in assuming you have no LP's in your possession as of yet ? if so and your starting fom scratch I would take a look at the used market for at least your phono=pre and maybe even your TT, go with a new cartridge unless you know the source of the used one. Even consider a packaged table, arm, and cart.

The other two cents worth of advise I'd give is be carefull how much you initially invest, for unlike alot of us that are trully commited to analog, were old and have been doing it longer that the majority of folks on this forum have been on the planet, you may find yourself "otta Love" with it in shorter order than you realize. Now I'm not trying to deflate your ballon, rather make you more 'aware'

For starters get Mikey Fremmers DVD "21st Century Vinyl" , watch it, digest it and hopefully you will be with the rest of us "Black Pizza" spinners !!

[Wayner]

Franks does not have a volume control. It will plug into a line level input.

Wayner

[AliG]

OK, I've ordered that DVD...!

Alot of good replies so far....now I've got a question or two ??....... am I correct in assuming you have no LP's in your possession as of yet ? if so and your starting fom scratch I would take a look at the used market for at least your phono=pre and maybe even your TT, go with a new cartridge unless you know the source of the used one. Even consider a packaged table, arm, and cart.

The other two cents worth of advise I'd give is be carefull how much you initially invest, for unlike alot of us that are trully commited to analog, were old and have been doing it longer that the majority of folks on this forum have been on the planet, you may find yourself "otta Love" with it in shorter order than you realize. Now I'm not trying to deflate your ballon, rather make you more 'aware'

For starters get Mikey Fremmers DVD "21st Century Vinyl" , watch it, digest it and hopefully you will be with the rest of us "Black Pizza" spinners !!

[Brad]

Sorry I just got back to this thread - I could have loaned you my copy of Mikey's video.
Barry - I can get you started on some classical vinyl - not sure what types of music you're looking for there.
Cactus Records just reopened a couple of months ago and they have a lot of nice vinyl...I went to high school with the owner.


I like your idea of separate analog and digital front ends.
Analog week, swap-out, digital week.....

I'd also recommend going conservative to begin with.  See if you like the process.
Cleaning records, the whole act of changing records, etc
Going from having all your digital immediately available to changing a record every 20 minutes or so is quite a change

[Brad]

Here is my 'budget' suggestion:

Get a Mapletree Audio Phono 4 SE - under $1k
http://hollowstate.netfirms.com/
You can leave one of the inputs generic MM and set the other up to optimally match your cartridge

For the Turntable, this one looks like a good deal - and will hold its value
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1210567451
or one of the Pro-jects
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1210115910


edit:  better link
http://hollowstate.netfirms.com/phono4SE.htm

[AliG]

Brad,
  Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm looking at that TT seriously.. aa aa  but the seller's recent two negative feedbacks worries me a little.

   I realize that it's going to be a big change for me going from digital to vinyl, but I'm not completely abandoning digital, I have thousands of CD albums and zero LP right now. LP are more expensive too so I'll be looking for quality rather than quantity.
 
  barry

[Brad]

Good catch on the seller feedback - plus he only takes m.o. or check, and no original box.

Still, looks like the well-tempered is in good condition, and the Benz is a VERY nice cart


We did some analog vs digital comparisons (of the same recording)at a small get-together I hosted last weekend.
On my moderate system, the vinyl won out by a fair margin 

[JimJ]

I was about to go with a separate phono pre, until the deal on a ARC SP-9MKII with a built-in one came along.

If I went separate, it probably would have been with a Bottlehead Seduction.

[TheChairGuy]

Barry,

Phono amplification is already plagued by long runs and non-linearities.  Part of what is admired about digital technologies is that is quite simplified relative to vinyl playback.  You have your digital source, which outputs and sturdy 2v and you run that to a active preamp,a gain stage of 10-18db typically, without equalization, and bumps it over to your amp(s).  You can even use an entirely passive preamp, or no preamp at all (right to your amps if they have volume controls) with digital technologies.

Not the case with vinyl.  You have many, many more mechanical obstacles to minimize to get it to sound right.....then you are faced with electrical challenges well over and above that with digital technologies.  You must have an extra gain stage somewhere along the line with an extra 40db gain (and additional noise that occurs when you do so) and it also must function as an equalization stage, too 

Using an external phono amp......the feeble signals from your cartridge (0.3mv to perhaps 5mv.....or some 400x less than line level signals ) is being asked to run thru an average of 4' of cable (many of which have junctions along the way, get dumped into a pair of rca inputs....all before this feeble voltage gets amplified and equalized.  It's a recipe ripe for problems as noise can travel in the chain throughout.

Keeping the inherently complex phono amplification chain very simple should be your goal.  An all-in-one, properly designed such as the Van Alstine, PS Audio, Klyne or other units with volume control will reduce the transmission travel and junctions significantly...so you can get more of the signal amplified without prior 'poisoning' along the way. 

I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion of an outboard phono stage...I think an all-in-one is a cleaner, simpler, smarter and more cost effective way to enjoy hi-quality vinyl playback. For every issue an outboard phono stage solves, it adds the larger issue of additional complexity.

Vinyl is inherently complex...one should simplify when you can.  An all-in-one is one of the most fundamental ways one can simplify and enjoy higher quality vinyl playback in return.

Simplest of all is to use a receiver with dual mono power supplies (helps greatly with vinyl) and built-in phono stage.  The old Harman-Kardon 330 and 430 receivers (and a few of their integrateds back in the 70's and 80's) were dual mono's right down to their power supplies.  They cost about $100 on ebay.  A good shop can update a to good specs (including closely matched parts for best stereo imaging) for a couple hundred dollars. 

This could be the basis of a very excellent starter system for you until you learn a bit more...and it'll leave you lots for a deck, isolation (very important, too), a cartridge, etc.  All you would need is separate speaker cables......and you'd change out at your Salk inputs. I would think they'd have enough wattage to drive the Salk's 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Harman-Kardon-430-Twin-Power-Stereo-Receiver-Manual_W0QQitemZ370031542072QQihZ024QQcategoryZ3279QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Remember these were made at a time when Phono was THE hi-resolution choice, there were no video receivers, so much care went into these phono stages. Personally, I have not found the innate need, as with CD/Redbook, for tubes in my system.  The HK, fully updated may be all you need to begin as a phono amp (moving magnet and hi-output moving coils only as the phono stage only has approximately 40db at hand)

I love spending your money    John