[byteme]

Gary,

thanks, that's a lot but I'll see if I get a chance to get through it this weekend - hopefully while listening to some tunes!

[Malcolm Fear]

I have had great success with the following arrangement (top down):
Equipment
Corian shelf
Innertube
Corian shelf
spikes

I tried granite. It rings. Corian gives an audible improvement (it is very dead). I haven't tried Sorbothane for 20 years. Time to give them another shot.

[Malcolm Fear]

Hi Byteme
I thing the suport idea is different for speakers and equipment.
This thread seems to have focussed on equipment (a good thing).
I thought the idea for speakers was quite different.
If you mount a speaker on an innertube (vibrapod etc), then Newtons third law would come into play. As the speaker cone is trying to move forward, it is pushing the cabinet back Similar to diving off a fixed wall or diving off of a rowboat. Spiking a speaker directly to a floor will eliminate this.

[Gordy]

To my ears and addressing my beliefs, I have had great success using(as per Malcolm):

Tube cdp, tube amp and/or BPT
spikes
1 1/2" butcher block board
Aurios or modified Daruma's
1 3/4" butch block shelf

My thought being that the spikes drain/diffuse/absorb the self generated vibes from the equipment and the bearing type footers aid in stopping floor/speak type vibes from reaching the equipment...  Actually, the BPT has  Daruma's only, so far.

[Psychicanimal]

Psychic,

In your use of the Moca wood (by the way, what is your source for this? Is it readily available?) are there other things used as well? Do the components sit on spikes into the wood or directly on the wood with thier standard feet. Or are you suggesting another sandwich reciepe? If so, what is it?

I get the wood from an artisanal sawmill in Puerto Rico.  The wood is available in the Caribbean basin, and I think Florida, too.  Years ago I read about it in an old Caribbean hardwoods manual.  It said that Moca was used for building shelves for radio and TV equipment  because it was non resonant.  I use Goldmund cones to drain vibrations into the wood, which has unbelievably good self damping properties.  Under the wood I use those rubber/cork/rubber fottings Mapleshade (and others) sell.  They're excellent resistive damping devices.

With Moca wood the sound clears up and the soundstage expands significantly.  It's not subtle at all.  I've found all that Sorbothane, Vibrapod, rubber is just a bad fix and blurred sounding.  They might improve the sound under horrible circumstances (I use Vibrapods under my 80 lb Elgar regenerator, FWIW), but when compared to the combination of Goldmund cones and/or Moca wood you'd really notice how mediocre of a solution that is.  BTW, Hi-Fi Farm has Goldmund cones on sale @ 50% off.

[byteme]

OK, based on these last few posts let me pose a little different question.  If you're doing the sandwich thing is it a given that the 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 slab of wood has to be an entire (for example) 12 x 14 shelf worth or could it simply be a 1 3/4 x 1 3/4 x 1 3/4 cube underneath a spike??

The reason I ask is because it's probably easier to source a small block of quality wood (be it maple, moca or myrtle) than it would be to get 1 3/4 shelves of it.

If using corian, how thick did you go??

[Psychicanimal]

The reason I ask is because it's probably easier to source a small block of quality wood (be it maple, moca or myrtle) than it would be to get 1 3/4 shelves of it.

You can follow Mapleshade's configuration and not go wrong.  Maple cutting boards are available and IKEA sells some made out of Birch, which I've read it's pretty good ($19.95).  In fact, I plan to get two for my T4's until I get a hold of some Moca wood.

This is all component/application specific.  You just need to experiment with different devices and combine them until you get a feel for tuning components.  Neuance Audio makes some killer, ultra light shelves.  The IKEA Lack table is the closest, according to Ken Lyons of Neuance/Greater Ranges.  I have purchased five IKEA Lack tables to use four tops as shelves for wall mounting my components.  The two 50 lb (ea) T4 filters will go on a floor mounting scheme, with two inner tubes under the Lack table.  I will use the rubber/cork feet, cones and Birch cutting boards.  The inner tubes will be tuned to 4-5 cycles per second, since the floor is a false roof for the living room and extremely bouncy.

There's always a way...

[_scotty_]

absolutely. another alternative would be to use two non-contact laser position sensors hooked up to an oscilloscope or DAQ board in a computer. i'd love to do that, but unfortunately if i did i could probably sell footers for $20 a set until i died without ever turning a profit
not that i'm making anything on these anyway, it's basically a write-off against some consulting income.

-gary

 Hi gary, Here are 2 links you may find useful http://www.ssaerospace.com/  http://www.silicondesigns.com/Prod.html  These are links to accelerometers.
 Measurements might be helpful in product developement. A reviewer
in Stereophile routinely measures the deadness of loudspeaker enclosures
with a simple plastic tape accelerometer that he sticks to the side of the speaker.

[Gordy]

Hi Byteme, My maple butcher block slabs are full size (16 x 18 x 2, not 1 1/2!) because I am trying for a vibration sink.  Bed, Bath and Beyond has them for about $50 with their plentiful 20% off coupons.  The actual shelving is maple as well, which I made from former work bench tops.  The rack is a flexy style, using 3/4" all-thread ($7? each from McMaster.com) and flange nuts.  All in all, an unabashed rip-off of Mapleshade's version.  Including powder coating, the rack cost $154 to build, which pretty much dictated my construction style.  Works great, tastes light!!! Or something like that...

[Malcolm Fear]

I have tried all sorts of shelves (Solid Tasmanian Oak (hardwood), MDF, 2 layers of MDF, IKEA butchers block (you can get them in OZ, granite and Corian).
Corian makes a huge difference over all other types.
I get my Corian from Kitchen bench suppliers. I buy the sink cut outs for half the normal price.

[Tonto Yoder]

Corian makes a huge difference over all other types.
I get my Corian from Kitchen bench suppliers. I buy the sink cut outs for half the normal price.

Malcolm,
clever idea ---since Corian is only available from authorized suppliers and they often have minimum order amounts and high prices, using the sink cutouts seems a great solution for audio use.

As to Sorbothane, there recently was an eBay guy selling 12" squares for $8, but I don't know if he still has any.

[gary]

_scotty_:

thanks for the link. looks like a product that could work, and it'd be much less expensive than what i had in mind.

-gary

[Malcolm Fear]

I use 1/2 inch (12 mm) Corian shelving.

[Hantra]

here is the material properties pdf document from sorbothane, which shows the impulse response and transmissibility . . . .blah blah blah. . .

Gary:  

You still haven't posted anything at all about your claims of miracle science where these things magically transform vibrational energy into heat.  

I told you before, and I will say it again, it doesn't happen.  Transmissability, and things of that sort have nothing to do with the actual physical conversion of energy.  

B

[Malcolm Fear]

Hey Tonto Yader
We were lucky with the Corian. The kitchen bench manufacturer must have recently had the contract for a whole block of apartments. We got 12 sink cut outs all of the same colour (off white). For a slab of beer they cut them to our required size.

[JohnR]

You still haven't posted anything at all about your claims of miracle science where these things magically transform vibrational energy into heat.  

I told you before, and I will say it again, it doesn't happen.  Transmissability, and things of that sort have nothing to do with the actual physical conversion of energy.  

I'm having trouble understanding what the issue is here... The principle of conservation of energy says that you can't just "lose" energy, it has to be converted into something else. Usually, that something else is heat.

[gary]

Gary:  

You still haven't posted anything at all about your claims of miracle science where these things magically transform vibrational energy into heat.  

I told you before, and I will say it again, it doesn't happen.  Transmissability, and things of that sort have nothing to do with the actual physical conversion of energy.  

B

do you even have a cursory understanding of science? no offense, but you are really showcasing your ignorance in front of everyone on this board. i really am trying to help you understand this, but i'm at the end of my rope. here, please read up on the second law of thermodynamics:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/seclaw.html

(as an aside, i'm absolutely humiliated by the fact that 98% of sites talking about 2LoT do so only to "prove" that it makes evolution impossible. i'm embarassed to be a human sometimes)

to reiterate: the definition of a viscoelastic is that when you push on it, it pushes back with less energy than was applied. the energy had to go somewhere. that somewhere is heat. qed.
it's really that simple, and i can't put it in any simpler terms. and if you had read the links i posted before, you even would have seen hard measurements that demonstrated this (as in the case of the tuned mass damper with viscoelastics).

anyway, more articles on viscoelastics and how they convert vibrational energy to heat:
http://www.deicon.com/vib_categ.html
http://www.gleicher.com/viscodampdata.html

-gary

[BradJudy]

You still haven't posted anything at all about your claims of miracle science where these things magically transform vibrational energy into heat.  

I told you before, and I will say it again, it doesn't happen.  Transmissability, and things of that sort have nothing to do with the actual physical conversion of energy.  

B

I don't understand why vibration to heat is a mystery.  This is basic physics that has been covered in my science classes since I was in junior high (again in high school and in college).  As has been said, the energy cannot be eliminated (that would be magic) and is instead either transfered (exactly what we're avoiding by using a dampening material) or converted to another form (our goal).  It may sound odd that it becomes heat because so little heat is produced in this scenario that it isn't noticable to the touch. If you were to recreate this on a larger scale with constant, stronger vibrations you would easily tell through touch that the dampening material had increased in heat.  

If you still don't believe this, I'll go dig up some text books to quote - you can pick the level (high school, college, or grad school).

[_scotty_]

I don't understand why vibration to heat is a mystery.  This is basic physics that has been covered in my science classes since I was in junior high (again in high school and in college).  As has been said, the energy cannot be eliminated (that would be magic) and is instead either transfered (exactly what we're avoiding by using a dampening material) or converted to another form (our goal).  It may sound odd that it becomes heat because so little heat is produced in this scenario that it isn't noticable to ...

It is unfortunate but our school systems may no longer have an adequate
science curriculum and high school physics  was usually an elective
course. This may be basic science but many people are unaware
of most of what makes our technologically driven society function.
That is why pseudo-scientific white papers can be used to sucessfully influence ignorant audiophiles into spending ludicrous sums of money on
magic floozy dust to make their systems sound better.

[Hantra]

I don't understand why vibration to heat is a mystery. This is basic physics that has been covered in my science classes since I was in junior high (again in high school and in college). As has been said, the energy cannot be eliminated (that would be magic) and is instead either transfered (exactly what we're avoiding by using a dampening material) or converted to another form (our goal).

No mystery here Judy.  I just still have yet to see measurements proving that a certain amount of energy is converted to a certain amount of heat.  Sure, logic, and basic physics laws dictate this in general practice, but my point is that Sorbathane and viscoelastic materials like that do not accomplish what is being purported in this application.  

you are really showcasing your ignorance in front of everyone on this board.

To my "ignorant" knowledge, no one has ever produced measurements that emprically prove that these materials dissipate more than a miniscule amount of energy.  All they do is change the frequency of the vibrational energy, and slingshot 99.99999% or more back into the object they are "damping".

I read all the links that allegedly provide these measurements, but my "ignorance" must be causing me to read over that part, and not see it.