[Daryl]

Excuse me, but I do hear differences in output caps. I didn't ask for techno babble why that can't be, I asked for people's experiences of the different possibilities, what they hear.

I can assure you that you don't hear differences in coupling capacitors and this is the LAB circle and any answer you get that is not technical in nature is waste of bandwidth.

[Daygloworange]

Daryl,

I'm interested in the technical details of the gear that you use in your 2 channel rig.

Can you fill us in on what kind of stuff you use for your system?

Cheers

[rajacat]

[/quote]

I can assure you that you don't hear differences in coupling capacitors and this is the LAB circle and any answer you get that is not technical in nature is waste of bandwidth.
[/quote]

You really should get your ears irrigated!

[BobM]

Listening tests are only of very limited use.

Well then, I guess I'll just go downstairs into my audio den and measure my equipment all afternoon. After all, listening is just "of very limited use". I wonder what kind of differences I'll measure up between a standard redbook CD and a Reference Recording version of the same? Oooh, shivers of anticipation!

Enjoy (your measurements),
Bob

[marklivia]

Daryl, does that mean all the guys on this forum don't ever use their ears when they design stuff?

[art]

Excuse me, but I do hear differences in output caps. I didn't ask for techno babble why that can't be, I asked for people's experiences of the different possibilities, what they hear.

That was my point. Look like someone here isn't interested in your request.

Pat

[art]

I can assure you that you don't hear differences in coupling capacitors and this is the LAB circle and any answer you get that is not technical in nature is waste of bandwidth.

Uh......some might feel that you are a waste of BW. Stick to the point, and allow people to discuss what they want.

Just a word of friendly advice:

Don't ever start an audio company. Save your money and put it to better use.

Pat

[Occam]

Hi Paul,

If you have much skill with electronics you would have to admit my arguments are compelling and insightfull (me talking).

Listening tests are only of very limited use.

People's suceptability to placebo's and proclivity toward occultism are well known especially with regards to hifi.

Even if what your hearing is to be believed (which it's not) you come to the roadblock that the better sounding choice could be the less accurate one because you might prefer the error of the less accurate choice.

The psychology of the situation is obvious when you look at obvious facts like the hundereds of componets in the system and the fact that folks are replacing the least critical of all of them and lavishing in the difference they imagined.

I pointed out already how manufacturers pedal capacitors they claim are 'better' but most don't' even have the sense to incorporate a litz or ribbon type lead which would likely allow them to cut ESL to 1/4 or so and extend usable bandwidth and octave higher for audio filter applications and two octaves for supply bypass and coupling applications.

These facts should alert you that there is more at work here.
.........

Hey Daryl,

Indeed, your comments seem plausible. I also have access to Horowitz and Hill, as well as the application notes from various component manufacturers. And if we were talking about something that was not experimentally verifiable, I'd have no issues with your comments. But were not talking cosmology or a Grand Unified Theory, and neither your nor I are Edward Witten, able to talk about those 11 dimensions,  a purely a cerebral exercise, and too date, only addressable as 'thought experiments'.

Technology has provided us with some amazing components. One of them is called a switch. One specific type is called a 4pdt switch, which amazingly enough, in the proper context, allows us to compare signal coupling caps, in stereo, against other caps, or a wire, for that matter. [Gordy, thank you so much for making those brackets to mount the switches!] With a pair of these switches, you can actually switch things like power conditioners in and out of circuits. Most importantly, these comparisons can be done in less than 1/4 second and levels matched within <1/4 db. This, to my way of thinking removes issues of comparability. And with another person controlling the switch(s), with their back to me, qualifies as a reasonable single blind test. You might try it some time, rather than paraphrasing various references. Personally, I've yet to find a cap that equals a straight wire. (I'm too cheap to even buy teflons to try). And yes, I, and others, hear repeatable, identifiable differences between caps, even those that meet your criteria that should be indistinguishable

Even if what your hearing is to be believed (which it's not) you come to the roadblock that the better sounding choice could be the less accurate one because you might prefer the error of the less accurate choice.

And who appointed you the arbiter of the basically hedonistic passtime of listening to music? I'd like to think that my preference is for absolute accuracy, but frankly, if someone else's definition of accuracy is different, or wants to tailor their sound to their subjective preferences, its not my business, nor yours.

And lastly, yes, this is the LAB circle. As facilitator, I see no reason why subjective differences shouldn't be discussed in this circle. It sure as heck isn't your call. We all might learn something, rather than just repeating that they don't exist via tiresome circular tautologies.

FWIW

PS - Marklivia - Sincere apologies. I , as well have others have been suckered into Daryl's troll. PM me if you'd like me to split this thread (as best I can).

[marklivia]

Not a problem Occam.

[mjosef]

Its more fun with all the out-takes in....makes for a hilarious read. 

[kyrill]

Hey Daryl,

Indeed, your comments seem plausible. I also have access to Horowitz and Hill, as well as the application notes from various component manufacturers. And if we were talking about something that was not experimentally verifiable, I'd have no issues with your comments. But were not talking cosmology or a Grand Unified Theory, and neither your nor I are Edward Witten, able to talk about those 11 dimensions,  a purely a cerebral exercise, and too date, only addressable as 'thought experiments'.
- - - - - with their back to me, qualifies as a reasonable single blind test. You might try it some time, rather than paraphrasing various references. Personally, I've yet to find a cap that equals a straight wire. (I'm too cheap to even buy teflons to try). And yes, I, and others, hear repeatable, identifiable differences between caps, even those that meet your criteria that should be indistinguishable
 - - - - - -

FWIW

Paul is very right
So my advice would be for yr dac
use straight wires as replacements for the OUTPUT caps instead of ANY cap you can buy ONLY if you TRUST the caps that you KNOW are there in the input side of yr preamp (and why shouldn't you trust them?) The intentions of yr original question still hold, but are now shifted to the preamp Unless you have already replaced yr preamps input caps for the best Teflons you could permit yourself

i have wires as the  input caps of my poweramps and preamp, trusting the teflon output caps in my DAC, and preamp I have put Pirate skull stickers on my preamp's input enclosure and power amp input enclosure to remind me that this configuration may not be interchangeable with other persons set up

Paul if you  PM me for yr address
i would love to send you two .22uF 600V real Teflon caps build like a tank for you to experiment with. they are Russian and i have them in my TABOO tube amp. i find them very much more musical than Mundorf silver/gold in oil

[Russtafarian]

i would love to send you two .22uF 600V real Teflon caps build like a tank for you to experiment with. they are Russian and i have them in my TABOO tube amp. i find them very much more musical than Mundorf silver/gold in oil

You can send some to me too!

Seriously, I'm looking to try some .22uF teflons in my tube amps.  If you have a reasonably priced source for them, please PM me.  Thanks.

Russ

[zacster]

http://stores.ebay.com/SOVCOM_TEFLON-Capacitors_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ3291458QQftidZ2QQtZkm

I bought my PIO caps from him.  the prices are reasonable, but the shipping kills you.  If you want to experiment buy everything at once.

[kyrill]

YEp

These are the ones
I bought them there

  I gave him 5 star FB
I find the shipping cost very reasonable aal the way from Russia Ukraine

[Steve]

I have to agree that the caps sold over the counter do not sound like a wire. (Like Occam, I haven't tried them all). But then the market place determines what is sold and what is not.

IMO, there is a definite sonic difference between capacitors.

Cheers.