[Ichinichi]

Hi all! Super newb here!

First a quick purpose statement: I've found that there are times when I can't/don't have something clamped to my head (doing dishes, cooking, entertaining guests) where I wish I could still have great sound. So now I'm looking to put together a budget speaker setup. Just a casual system with decent sound that will satisfy a set of head-fi ears at times when the Senns aren't on them.

Picked up a pair of upgraded Insignias (thanks Danny!). Now I don't know how much to spend on the integrated amp/receiver! I know that if I go for a $$$$ amp/rec, my bottleneck will be the speakers - so, given these speakers as the limiting parameter, what next?

How much should I spend on and amp/rec? Makes? Links?

What else do I need to finish the setup?

assuming unlimited funds, but with the speakers in place, what price point should i be looking at? again, i assume that a $1000 amp and $1000 source would be wasted on these speakers, but how about the best $200 amp? or the most highly acclaimed $200 source? or $100?

[SET Man]

Hey!

  First welcome to the AC!

   For second system for casual listening I would definitely will look for used stuff first. Maybe a good vintage integ-amp or receiver?

   I also have second/TV system. I went for a JVC RX-F10 receiver... was a pretty popular receiver around here for a while back than... driving my homemade speaker Using cheap JVC DVD player or my old Rotel CDP. The reason I went for new receiver, the F10 because since this second system were meant to be for TV and casual listening I thought it would be a good idea to have some convenience  ... you know the remote for everything To my surprised this little receiver sounds very good actually. Very enjoyable.

  Well, that's my take on this. But it is up to you of how far you want your second system to be.

Take care,
Buddy

   

[S Clark]

Do you listen to radio- then get an ebay receiver.  If not, check out the Sonic Impact T-amps from Parts Express.

[marvda1]

you mean pawn shop receiver, you can get one for under $100...pioneer, sony, denon(?).

[Jampot]

You could have a lot of fun with this if you don't mind buying used.

Hot 'all in ones' in these circles in the not too distant past were -

Sharp SD-EX111

JVC RX-ES1sl (similar period to Buddy's)

A search will find lots of info about them - heck Vinni Rossi used to mod the Sharp!

If you are happy with seperate boxes read up on the Teac AL 700P (bit more umph than the Sonic Impact) and the 'Play Station One' for amp and source though out of the box these may leave you short of a volume control - perhaps a conventional cd player with volume control straight into the Teac (or other power amp) or the PS1 into a receiver.

You don't seem to expect to spend a lot of time in the sweet spot when this is playing, but it will still be beneficial to get some decent support under the Insignias and play around with the position of them.

This current thread may provide food for thought in respect of cables -

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50161.0

Spend another few $$ and minutes on cleaning the plugs and sockets and you should have a rocking system

Let us know how it turns out

Jim

[JLM]

Seems like you're talking about a desktop type setup, so only a few watts should be needed.  For this sort of system you certainly don't need to spend a whole lot to get high quality amplification.


A good place for several small amp options:

http://www.audio-magus.com/category_s/1.htm

Great timing, also check out this little amp (could also become your headphone amp, its supposedly that good):

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=49235.0



Pairing with a Squeeze Box (must be somewhat computer savy) would make for a dynamite tiny system.

[Bemopti123]

JLM, that Nuforce desk amp looks great but the biggest downer...those CAT 5 speaker connectors in the amp end.  People have been asking Jason about it and he does not seem to answer the questions about the connector.  The worst thing to have in a affordable receiver like that are weird connectors which makes you force you to buy things that only work with it. 

[mcgsxr]

For a great source at that price point, a Slim Devices SB3 would be great - even easier if it is close to a PC, and you can run wired.

For amps, there are interesting choices, depending on what you buy as a source.  If you go with a source with built in volume control (SB3 for example) then all you NEED is a power amp of some kind.

Not sure what the efficiency of those speakers is, I think it is high 80's?  87-90 or so?  If so, and the room is not huge, then I would think that 10-50wpc would work well.

The Teac referenced (30wpc) is good (search around here, you will find I owned a couple of them in various states of mod), an older Panasonic or JVC digital receiver would be good, and there are always older lower powered solid state amps around for $100-$200 on Audiogon or eBay.

What musical preferences do you have, and what room will these go in?  Any ability to be close to a PC?  Or at least any ability to run a network cable to a PC?

[Ichinichi]

Hi all!

You've all got me very excited with all these options!

General reply: My primary goal is to get your collective opinions on what you feel is a rational price-point to look at for the rest of the components (integrated amp, DAC or CDP) given whatever limitations you've heard or read about the modded Insignias. Obviously, I could spend many monies on each component, but then each of you would look at that system and say "well, those speakers are holding him back!" - well, I want the best system you can suggest that will not make you feel that way; you should see the setup and go "Oh, OK, that's about right, nothing in that lineup is really held back by anything else".

Sorry for the long explanation. To answer more specific questions:

1. I have nothing against used components at all, in fact, I haven't got a single piece of headphone equipment that was purchased new!
2. Music preferences: 50% classical (from solos to concertos to full symphonies) and the rest is a mixture of male/female vocals, pop and rock, in that order.
3. I would like a tube integrated amplifier as I like the tube sound, but I'm unsure of what price bracket this automatically puts me in.
4. Some of you have guessed that I do want to use a digital source (laptop, PC). Will any other decent DAC do? Or is there something about the SB3 that sets it apart?
5. Can I plug in any DAC (EMU 0404USB etc.) to the integrated amplifier via RCA?
6. Given the entry-level class of these speakers, will there even be a perceptible difference in sound between Tube and SS amps?
7. Similarly, will I really be able to hear the difference with cables given these speakers?

[mcgsxr]

Thanks for the reply, I think what you have shared will assist in getting some more specific suggestions.

I have a few more questions though, sorry I cannot shake my consultative sales roots!

Can I ask why you seek a tube integrated?  Do you have more than one source? 

I see that you intend to use a laptop as the source, and are considering using either outboard DAC, or SB3 etc to get the music out - can I assume that you are using a lossless format for your music, or are you using MP3 etc?

As for cables, at this price point I would leave it mostly out of the equation - not sure if the system that will be assembled would reveal too much about cable flavouring etc.  I would consider Blue Jeans, or Signal Cable etc for simple, value focused cables for a system such as this.

SS vs Tube - up to your personal pref I would suggest - it would be easier to find a $200-$300 integrated SS amp I would guess, though there might be some Chinese integrateds to be found at this price point.

For cheaper SS integrateds - an older NAD, or Rega would be a good starting place.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1206908289 - nice BEE NAD
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1206152143 - would have been a nice Rega option
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/79414-rega_mira/ - here's a Rega to consider
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=160204204433&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=006 - looks interesting, and Mark is an AC member too.

For affordable Tube integrateds - a used Sophia might do the trick.

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/78928-sophia_baby_amp_nm_obm__upgrades/ - common tube integrated
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140203895441&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004 - interesting hybrid tube/SS integrated.

A third option is the digital amp - Panasonic SAXR series receiver, JVC digital receiver, Teac tripath, Trends TA-10,

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/trends/ta10.html

IF you are using your laptop or an SB3 as the source, and have only that one source, then I would consider buying a power amp.  For me, the SB3 is great because it IS my source, and preamp, so I can run it directly into an old school Class A el84 amp - here is a different but interesting one on eBay - http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250211829918&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=015 - not plug and play, would need some work to turn into a pure power amp like mine, but a great starting point too.

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/79775-antique_sound_lab_wave8/ - nice set of tube monoblocks

So, to me, the best price point to surf for an amp for those speakers would be in the used market around $200-$350 or so, unless the 10wpc or so of the Trends Tripath will do it - cause if it will, it just might be the perfect amp for you...

Good luck!

[Ichinichi]

thanks so much for the post, Mark!

i guess i just don't know the difference between an integ and a power amp. i will mainly have one source (the laptop) but later on, i'll have a CDP as well. if i understand correctly, the pipeline goes:

single source to power amp to speakers OR
multi source to integrated amp to speakers

the problem is that i also don't know how many wpc i need with those speakers. the insignias are 8Ohms w/ a max power of 120W. they will be in a smaller room (one bedroom apt living room).

as for format, yes, out of the laptop it will be flac or ape.

[JLM]

We know next to nothing about the modded Insignias (at least frequency range and efficiency would be needed) before the optimal power rating of the amp can be determined.  But for extreme nearfield or background listening, the power demands can be expected to be quite modest.  The stock Insignia are known as a value leader, but I have no idea how good the modded ones might be or what they'd compare to.

Bemo:  for a couple of years I ran multistrand CAT5 or cryo'd single strand plenum rated CAT5.  Only until I got speakers that reach into the bottom octave  did I switch to heavier gauge.  So the little NuForce doesn't bother me (my experience is that small speakers just don't have the muscle to do deep bass anyway).  I see it as a none issue, but I'll agree its an oddity.

I agree with mcgsxr regarding cables.  I currently use Element Cables throughout, another "value focused" cable line.  I'd try to budget way less on all your cables than speakers or integrated amp or source components.

A power amp lacks controls, it just amplifies the signal from low level to speaker level.  Pre-amps vary.  Some do impedance buffering (some times important).  Some provide gain (amplification), but typical digital sources usually don't need it.  All provide volume control while some provide source switching (multiple source inputs), tone controls, etc.  An integrated amp is simply the combination of power and pre-amplifiers that normally saves space, money, etc.

If your source has a volume control (most CDPs don't) a pre-amp may be completely optional.  But like many things in audio, opinions vary with some disagreeing that this can be done without degrading sound quality.

Tubes provide a pleasing body/warmth that detractors call colorations (deviations from accurate fidelity).  Their sound changes as the tubes age and of course they do burn out.  Tube fans enjoy "rolling" (switching between several different tubes) to obtain varying sonic results.

[ebag4]

I read online that the Insignias are 90dB at 1 watt, you can start from there.  Assuming you aren't trying to rock the house with the Insignia you shouldn't need too many watts, 8 watts should push them to 99dB, 16 to 102dB and so on.....

[finsup]

This is just a suggestion since I haven't heard the Peachtree Audio Decco but there is some discssion about it in these forums.   Check it out
here:  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=48549.0



Features and Specs

• 3 digital inputs: USB/Toslink/SPDIF digital inputs
• Decodes MP3, MP4, FLAC, AFF, WAV, plus all others
• Tube pre-amp section
• 50 watts per channel high current A/B amplifier
• 2 analog inputs
• +5dB, 55Hz bass EQ for small speakers
• Detachable power cord
• Multi voltage switchable toroidal power transformer
• Preamp Stereo output for additional amplifier or subwoofer
• Remote control
• Slot in back to hide Sonos ZP80

A little out of your combined price range -- but it is a potential single box solution for what you are asking.

Good luck.

[Ichinichi]

interesting, but is twice my combined budget! not sure $400 source + $400 amp will have you going "oh, those speakers aren't holding him back one bit!"

[mcgsxr]

I would really think about this one - affordable, and well regarded.  IF you can live with 10wpc, I would say the search is over.

http://www.obadimports.com/catalog/item/4377302/4344389.htm

IF you feel you need more power, there are others listed here too.

http://www.obadimports.com/page/page/4377302.htm

Where are you located?

[Wind Chaser]

The Trends (Audiomagus - Michael Mardis mods) did nothing for me, it's a good deal better than the various Sonic Impacts, but certainly not as good as the Charlize.  I sold my Trends after 200+ hours.  Narrow sound stage, artifical and lack luster but pretty good bass.

I bought a Little Dot and I am quite (very) surprised.  I've ordered some NOS tubes to roll.  I think this one is a keeper.  On the down side, the remote sucks and is as cheesy as it gets, but at least it's a remote and it works.

[Ichinichi]

Wind Chaser: my many thanks to you for your insight on the MM modded trends - I was seriously considering that. I've learned the difference between D/T and A/B amps - I'd like to stick with push-pull since that's what I'm familiar and happy with.

Mark: I'm not sure the 10WPC will cut it with these low efficiency Insignias.... I'm in Missouri so US dealers are fine by me.

General: I've also read that the Insignias are darker...so tubes are iffy. HOWEVER, I like my music like my wine and my steaks - full bodied, tangible, something that takes your breath away, full of passion and fire. Sound ought to be invigorating, refreshing and engaging!

SHORTLIST:
Emotiva BPA-1/Dayton APA-150 ($150)
AudioSource Amp 100 ($80)

Does the Dayton use active cooling?

[nodiak]

Found this on the upgraded Insignias
http://www.gr-research.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=132
The Jolida 102b gets good reports for an intro tube integrated. Has plenty of outputs and enough power for your speakers short of very loud levels. Have seen used for under $400, even some with upgrades from Response Audio. I have a rebuilt vintage tube integrated and it has a hum that needs tracked down and fixed. This isn't rare with vintage amps, I sometimes think I may have been better off getting something newer then (I did later). Google Jolida 102b and do a search here on AC to learn more about them.
Those speakers, Jolida or similar tube integrated, SB3 (remote will be nice when you're cruising around the house). Pretty good for possibly under $1000.
Don

[pbrstreetgang]

Look for the non labled fatman ipod dock. 13wpc tubes and someone had them for $175. It is also an integrated and sounds pretty darn good. 13 WPC drove ML Odysseys to respectable levels so volume isnt an issue.