[TheChairGuy]

Hey Greg.

Without Grado and Direct Drive....I'm not sure my love of vinyl would be nearly as strong as it is. 

Belt drive decks haven't cut it (I suppose moving to $2500+ would find me a tightly regulated one that might suit me), but hey, it's $2500 

Further, every cartridge I've heard so far, but the Grado, has sounded unnatural to me.  That is, not like live music as I hear and have heard it.  I would likely like a London Decca too (it too is moving iron, low-ish inductance, fine line stylus and inherently underdamped...but they start at $800 or so now  )

All MC's are inherently overdamped, they have to be, or you wouldn't want to hear them.  Damping dials a lot of things down...but it rather indiscriminately damps the music out, too.

Again, there is probably a very nice moving coil cartridge north of $1000.00 that might suit me....but then again, it's $1000.00 on something that'll need re-tipping every 2 years (at best).  It just doesn't seem prudent to spend that on a cartridge.

For me I'm talking...and only for me I am speaking.

If a Grado doesn't work on an Origin Live arm...I'm not sure why I own the arm except to say sometime in the future I might get wiggy and spend $1000 on a MC 

John

[GregC]

Hey John,

I understand finding a brand you like at a price point that makes sense.  Grado is high on the list for bang-for-the-buck performance.  If Grado is the cartridge that does it for you then by all means you can start with that and choose other synergistic components to surround it. 

I have a lot of money invested in my deck, arm and cartridge, but it sounds the most like live music that I have heard anywhere near it price point it consistently send chills down my spine.  However, it does come at a steep price and the law of diminishing returns does apply.

Greg

[TheChairGuy]

So, for what it is worth...I (very carefully) set up the Technics SL-1200, with Origin Live armboard and Origin Live Illustrious Mk. III tonearm yesterday (again, after maybe 4 months)

I replaced all the missing screws at the hardware store yesterday and put her together.

Due to the mass of the OL arm (14.5 grams) I bypassed a couple of my favorite cartridges (Grado and Pickering XLZ-7500s) because they are higher compliance than I felt the arm could bear well with.  I went with my Denon DL-160vdH...not a fave, but more suited to this arm.

Indeed, as I found the last time - the Denon performs far more capably in the OL arm than the captive (likely lighter weight) JVC arm.  Tho it sounds better, it still is not my favorite.

This time out, I am employing one or more of the loading plugs....the 2.3KHz one to begin.  It does indeed chop out some of the ringing I find with this cartridge down to a manageable amount. But it's presentation still sounds false to me.

I forgot how much quieter this arrangement is than the JVC QL-F6 (DD) deck.....there is virtually no noise on with the volume turned to full on my preamp in MM mode.  With the JVC, there notable noise at 75%.  The shielding or grounding scheme is very good.

So, all is pretty carefully set up (vdH shapes are very, very finicky); VTA, VTF, azimuth, isolation (brass toes exactly where the Technics feet go...anywhere else doesn't work on this deck...in this place the deck is very well isolated on the 3.5" maple block)

I am finding much the same as before when I set this deck up.  The Technics motor needs about 30 minute warm-up to sound it's best....none of my other decks does this seem to matter (ever).  As well, there is still a bit of 'etch' to the presentation.....that is not present in any of my other decks (even using the Denon on the same arm, in my VPI HW-19 Mk. III rig).

I can't quite figure why....but, I'm going to re-dial the azimuth, take another stab at alignment (I dialed in the 3 null points from The Vinyl Engine's Rega alignment tool pretty well....and the Denon is azimuth'ed right) and maybe a couple other things I can think of (like anti-skate).  However, unless I am overlooking something in the set-up on the Technics, again noting the arm is not the stock one that takes the heat for the downfall of the deck versus more expensive decks (of any drive type) I again have to conclude that there is something inherent in the drive mechanism that holds this deck back from greatness

Hunting/fidgeting of the speed system, back EMF, something else?  I tried putting the deck thru the isolation transformer and power conditioner (which I use to good effect on the digital side....probably keeping the digital hash from poisoning the rest of the system) but, it just deadened the presentation (I didn't try raising the resistive loading to possibly compensate).

I have to say currently, as I have before, the $100 JVC (which cost $400 new in 1979) sounds better than the $3500 Technics with Origin Live arm.

I listen to the JVC, with captive arm (internally damped in the horizontal and vertical plane, however) and either the Grado Gold/Green with Shibata or the Pickering XLZ-7500s....and I am happy and find myself often saying ' how much better can it get than this?'

With the Technics I'm listening for reasons to be happy with the sound - rather than just being pleased with it - and knowing vinyl gets better than this.  As well, I find myself saying ' I'm not sure this is worth anybody moving from a really good CD/digital system from'.

Wish it weren't so, but it is currently.  Please keep the sticks and stones to a minimum - I don't say these things to hurt anyone in particular or general; they are just my findings and I'm free to inform folks of it   John

[Wayner]

Well John,

First, your album (if analog) was recorded on a high speed reel to reel. It has wow and flutter. It's speed varies. The bands tempo varies. The master lathe that cut the vinyl for stamping has wow and flutter. it's speed varies. Then finally you play an album. It has wow and flutter and it's speed varies.

There are also other defects that can cause pitch shift. One of them is spindle hole location. If it's off center, even minutely, the pitch will warble constantly. The other is dirty records that can cause a drag differential (from say, a stain or finger print smudge). A warp can also cause speed fluctuation because the tone arm is busy going up or down when it shouldn't be going anywhere

There we have a possible 7 things that can contribute to your perfect pitch problem, and you blame the last guy in the loop, which to me, isn't fair, nor is it correct IMHO.

[lcrim]

John:
In addition to Wayner's points, that particular TT was  beaten all to hell when you got it.  Then there's the modifications you made to it.  Any judgement about the quality of its sound output being representative of the marque are just ridiculous.
The price of a new one with the more effective KAB mods such as the damping tray, the arm rewire and the outboard power supply would be a small and reasonable cost.  Add in the Isoplatmat and a Herbies Mat, all your ant-vibration stuff and I know you would finally be pleased.  You've come this far.

[TheChairGuy]

Yo Wayner!

(I think you posted the above in reponse to another topic, that of unregulated belt drive, but it's here in this topic on the Technics.  I'll try to move both the the right topic later today so there is cohesiveness)

I own a Technics SL-1200 MK. II and a VPI HW-19 MK. III.....and I have Rega mount armboards for both.

Using the same tonearm, the Origin Live Illustrious Mk. III with the same cartridge mounted and all relevant specs dialed in correctly, I've run both....and it doesn't take but a moment on the right music to know that the Technics keeps time and the VPI does not. Piano, and most forms of classical point out the differences rather immediately.

The spring suspension of the VPI has been defeated [using foam swimming tubes propping up the plinth, recommended by Mike at VPI, and by this use I have a DIY Stand-Alone-Motor-Assembly (SAMA)].  I've wiggled and played with belt tension to find the best result....and I own a outer clamp that weighs a lb. or two (that does not fit the Technics as the platter is recessed into the deck), that significantly reduces record-induced wow to a minimum...allowing reproduction more akin to master tape...in all ways, except for painfully obvious differences in pitch and speed regulation.

http://www.soundengineeringllp.com/productdisplay.asp?id=1

The outer record clamp (along with an inner clamp I use) keeps the record flatter, reduces warp induced wow...and adds additional outer mass and acts like a flywheel and reduces the effects of the AC
motor drives ratching action...finally, the record weight absorbs micro-vibrations.  It works wonders...but doesn't change the obvious difference in speed regulation between the two decks.

The VPI Mk. III platter is a rather heavy, non-resonant affair (it's the better unit they made the earlier units with...not acrylic....rubber over lead and cork or something) to begin with at about 12 lbs...so, theoretically at least, it should have a pretty good flywheel affect to begin with and overcome alot of the speed issues - right outta' the box.  But, it doesn't 

I never play a record unless it's been cleaned thru my Nitty Gritty RCM, preserved with LAST....and every couple plays my stylus tip receives STYLAST.  We don't have static issues in California (no heaters and low ambient humidity....we don't have lightning strikes either )

I just received a Linn/Jelco tonearm board for the Technics....which I can mount to the Technics and use with my AQ PT-6 arm (with dropped counterweight). The VPI has Linn/Jelco board, too, with the excellent VTAF from Pete Riggle.  If I mount THAT arm on both tables, with teh same cartridge and dial in everything needed....it will likely still be painfully obvious that the VPI sounds bloated and out of pitch.  Even, to me...not one of perfect pitch whatsoever.

So, I don't know what's left of the variables to assess otherwise.....it's abundantly clear to me...unregulated belt drive doesn't cut it for high-quality, vinyl playback.

That doesn't preclude me buying a belt drive deck next time....but it'll have a strictly regulated AC or DC drive system if it does.  Otherwise, it'll be a step back in an important regard....something that the advent of CD/redbook has raised our expectations of the past 25 years.  I want CD-like speed regulation...not cassette or reel-to-reel-like pitch...on playback.

On a strict budget, that is something I see that only a direct drive deck can do right now.  When you step into $1500+ (give or take a few hundred, there is no line in the sand on this) and can buy a well sorted belt drive deck, preferably well isolated without spring suspension (viscoelastic or silicone may act differently, but I don't know firsthand)...then and only then do I find belt drives measuring up in this important regard.

But - I'm not talking about a pitch problem with the Technics....I don't note an issue on that point with it....it is preferred to the VPI overall (for reasons stated above).  But, it doesn't sound as good as the JVC....even with a reportedly fabulous tonearm on it.

Ciao, John

[TheChairGuy]

John:
In addition to Wayner's points, that particular TT was  beaten all to hell when you got it.  Then there's the modifications you made to it.  Any judgement about the quality of its sound output being representative of the marque are just ridiculous.
The price of a new one with the more effective KAB mods such as the damping tray, the arm rewire and the outboard power supply would be a small and reasonable cost.  Add in the Isoplatmat and a Herbies Mat, all your ant-vibration stuff and I know you would finally be pleased.  You've come this far.

Larry,

No Technics arm....as mentioned, it was smashed on the ride to here.  And, for sure this deck was not lovingly cared for in the past.

The arm receives the most criticism of the Technics failings by many....but, that issue has been removed.  So, how rediculous is it to say it seems to be something else????

I already use the Herbie's mat (it's actually a bit better than the current Way Excellent Mat as it turns out...it was a pricier mat that he sold me for the same cost as the Way Excellent...it has removeable damping dots, some 24 of them in total, where you can adjust to the dot how much damping is needed).  As well, my sub-mat is the excellent EAR Isodamp material (0.125")...so my platter is more than well damped I think.

SME uses EAR material on their $10,000+ turntables as their platter mat...so I'm pretty sure it's audiophool approved 

I've tried to call Kevin/KAB 3x in the past two weeks with no success (I did not leave a message) to get an idea when and where to send the deck for the outboard motor and strobe disabler.  My intention is to take it all the way (do I not, usually  aa) and remove the last bit of doubt that it's the motor as the source of some of the (so-called) failings of the Technics SL-1200 to measure up sonically with pricier offerings in the market.

Once in Kevin's skilled hands, he can also see if anything else is awry with my particular deck and, hopefully, fix it.

I'm sure hoping the outboard motor is the answer....I'd love to stop at this level of expenditure for excellent playback, rather than look to more expensive offerings.  I took a real long time to admire the innards of the Technics this weekend...and it is truly a work of fine (mechanical) engineering regarding it's damping throughout.  I can appreciate the hi-quality molds on the tri-ply sandwich that makes up the Technics as we pay many $$$thousands for smaller molds on our hand trucks we build.

One thing for sure, having every screw in place is important to damp the top plinth (amazingly important to playback) with the middle hard plastic and bottom, solid rubber one.  Without all the screws, you have feedback.  With them all in place, it's amazingly resistant to feedback (toes need to be placed right where the feet go, otherwise it seems the vibrations don't bleed off and down correctly).

[TheChairGuy]

A 3,000 dollar tone arm does not equate to quality. You and I both know that engineering costs, tooling costs and amortization of costs (based on quantity) and shear number of units manufacturered relative to perceived value determines price in it's postion in the market place. Of coarse all of the other ya-buts are in there too, like labor, shipping and all that other junk. Compared to the Technics tone arm found on an SL-1200, the Origin can't compare to the tooling invested, design resources and shear number of units made (in the hundreds of thousands), having several mods along the way. The Technics SL-1200 and certainly the SL-1210 are probably some of the most highly engineered tone arms of all time. Next, the question has to be asked "does that make the Technics tone arms the best sounding"? One might think so, but on the other hand, can a less than stellar tooled up, low production arm be an equal or even a better? There are examples aplenty of both.

To be blunt, and I don't want to hurt your feelings in anyway......Why would you put a 3k tone arm on a $400 table? What's even more strange is why wouldn't you buy a NEW ONE first to find out what they are really like, stock? Or are you afraid that all the idiots at Technics new what they were doing and well......damn them for making such a highly engineered product for so little money that it makes almost all other tables a JOKE. Especially considering the stock price of about $450. Hell a lot of AC'rs spend more on a stupid cartridge then that!

As far as your JVC, I attribute your fondness for it like a first true love and unless something can sound like it, (good or bad) it doesn't measure up.

OK, now it's your turn.

Wayner - you are one prickly dude today - what's up with that?  Momma' holding back and the pipes are a little backloaded??

Again, you are responding to my post in THIS topic, The SL-1200 - but you blurted your baloney in the one about the Just getting into vinyl (that morphed into my heartfelt belief that unregulated belt drive is not a good thing to pursue).  But, you're so hellbent on being a dick today, that you missed the nudge - again.

The Origin Live Illustrious Mk. III is being used because it's the only Rega-mount arm I have....I had a sanely priced (by audiophool standards) Rega 250, rewired with Incognito, and a dropped Expressimo counterweight.  Due to the Origin Live dropped/2 piece tonearm board and the dropped counterweight...the Rega arm (which sounded great) would not fit in the dropped hole of the OL board for the Technics. 

So, around the time I realized this....a very lightly used OL Illustrious Mk. III came up on Audiogon.  Back then, the official list was $2700.00 and I paid $1800.00 in a fit of audiophooldom that doesn't happen that often to me (fortunately, I'm built a bit cheap). 

What is it the hell to you how or on what I spend my money on?  Did I rip it from your bank account to pay for my foolishness?  Is anyone poorer for my foolishness? Sheesh, allmighty....

Fact is you have glossed over most of the point of my post...that is, the same tonearm and cartridge was used in both tables and the Technics still sounds 'etched'...thereby somewhat nullifying the point that it's only the Technics arm that is holding back the performance of the SL-1200.

For all I know the tonearm is absolutely stellar...it seems to be something relegated to the drive system of either all SL-1200's or mine specifically.  I'll only know that if and when I send it in to Kevin / KAB for the outboard motor and strobe disabler.  Or, do I need to clear my audio expenditures with you first...Mommy 

As for buying a used table.....it was advertised on ebay as having a working arm on it.  My original intention was to compare the stock arm to the Rega.  If the stock arm was good, I might have had KAB rewire it and buy the damping pot (I am a BIG beleiver in silicone damping...proved with my prior table 3 years ago with DIY experiments). I was already happy with the JVC, but curious to own my own SL-1200...and wanted to start inexpensively. The guy in Florida I bought the table from packed it like an ass and the tonearm was smashed upon arrival here.  I bought it for a great price - so I didn't complain much to the kook who sold/packed it - I didn't leave him any feedback, but in retrospect should have 



Anyhow, I got a beat up $150.00 table that works....and a $80 Origin Live tonearm board and $3,000 Origin Live arm. I was fond of my old Thorens TD-316 when I first bought it in 1987.....but it sounded like crap in 2000 when I returned to this hobby after listening to CD for a few years.  Tho I didn't like redbook...I appreciated it's perfect speed stability and the Thorens didn't cut it bone stock.  I'm not that nostalgic to love my JVC of 2 years overall others just because of that.

I'm afraid of nothing from you, Origin Live or Technics...and I reserve the right to pursue a higher level of fidelity any way I choose to.  As you may. Further, I bloody well know about economies of scale and low volume and high mark-ups of specialist makers to achieve a living in specialist/hi-end audio.

I've been kid gloves with you on a bunch of accusatory posts you've made flaming me in the past for merely stating my honest beliefs....but, I won't give you an ounce of leeway now just because you are a sensitive or grumpy sort. None at all.

Don't flame me  and you won't be basted, boiled and grilled for your bizarre behavior in return. Simple. ain't it?

John

[Wayner]

Don't care what you spend your money on. Just handing out some free advice. I have a few years on you spinning vinyl and I hope some day you'll figure out that it is the Whole system that makes a table work, not just parts. I think it's also very egotistical to think that your ideas are better than the people that originally designed tables (especially when that was perhaps their main job in life). Ying and Yang make harmony. Out of balance makes confusion. You are in confusion. I do not use any of the steps you do in listing to vinyl except a little wet brush before playing. My vinyl is noise free. You are washing with machines and expensive fluid and you've spent all this do-ray me on this and that, and it's got you no-where. simplest is best. I think you need to re-evaluate your steps and eliminate what doesn't work (which I thick is most).

Hang in there Buddy.

Just me

[TheChairGuy]

Seriously, you're semi-delusional now   

I have what I consider really decent playback quality, but I am looking to see how much further one can go...and how much one need spend to arrive at it.  I listen to my JVC deck with Grado and say (often enough) 'does it get better than this?'. 

But, I want to keep trying - that's my prerogative.  If you want to sit on your self-centered duff and leave well enough alone, all smug that being cheap is also the best way every time..so be it, wonderful, more power to ya' 

Those things that don't work or if I find things equally as useful for less cost or complexity - I use them.

Seriously - are you drinking now - just a few pips after work? 'Cause, your making assumptions about me like you've read nothing before that I've written 

Trust me, I do luv' ya'(believe it or not)...I'm just not going to let you continue taking shots in on me because you are overly sensitive or grumpy.  It doesn't help improve these personality quirks and loops if I let your zingers go unanswered.

John 

[Wayner]

Since we both live in AMERICA and we have FEEDOM of SPEECH and I have'nt violated any rules of AC, There is nothing you can do..........

Calm down.

I'm not wacked out in any way shape or form and your suggestion of it in a public forum is a liabliity. I suggust you shut your mouth.

[S Clark]

Fellas,
As a long time lurker in the vinyl circle I can attest that I have learned a great deal from both of you guys.  As I look for my way to upgrade from my B&O,  insight gained from your serious (and sometimes not so serious) comments have been educational, and occasionally in a strange way, entertaining.  After the flames die down surely we all realize that its about enjoying the music- and that we all do that in slightly different ways (unless its hip hop-that is a verrry different way for me).

[Wayner]

OK John, lets calm down a bit. This forum (I thought) was to help understudies get up to speed in the wonderful world of vinyl. I love it and I know you love it. They love it or they wouldn't be here. I do suggest that there are many ways to achive "nervana" with this medium. I really want us to learn about tweaking our rigs (if they need to be) or for those that are happy with what they have, just enjoy the god damn things.

Who ever said a vinyl rig is ever going to sound like real? They are the dope. It's the next best thing, hell it might be the best thing (ever hear a Gypse concert?). I don't have all the answers, I know you don't and I know most others don't either.

We need to start having some way to validate claims here. That is the only way to advance our unified goal here....to listen to vinyl that makes us piss in our pants that it's so good!

Peace out bro................

Wayner  

[TheChairGuy]

Mr. Clark - don't sweat it - we shall all overcome.

Wayner - you've taken your shots at me before and I've blithely ignored it as I know you're a sensitive (caring) sort in your occasionally grumpy way (as is Larry Crim), but I cannot further ignore the taunts.  To whit and without personal provocation you decided to write this to me:

Why would you put a 3k tone arm on a $400 table? What's even more strange is why wouldn't you buy a NEW ONE first to find out what they are really like, stock? Or are you afraid that all the idiots at Technics new what they were doing and well......damn them for making such a highly engineered product for so little money that it makes almost all other tables a JOKE. Especially considering the stock price of about $450. Hell a lot of AC'rs spend more on a stupid cartridge then that!

As far as your JVC, I attribute your fondness for it like a first true love and unless something can sound like it, (good or bad) it doesn't measure up.

It is indeed America, you've crossed no definable line that I can see here on AudioCircle....but, you crossed the line with me.  Theorizing that I think the engineers at Matsushita are idiots, pointedly saying I'm afraid of learning, pontificating about how 'strange' I am or my methods...what gives?  So, unlike a few prior occasions, I decided to pin your ears back so you'd remember next time.

I'm not as pissed-off as you think...there is considerable method to my seeming madness here.  That is, I am willing to bet you will think 3x over before you theorize about my ulterior motives, doubt my sincerity and flame me about something in the future.

That I say some things that please you and others that don't is not my concern...all that concerns me is progress.  I may take a different path than you, or even most, but it works for me that way.

I am as free to express myself with being swiped at as you - but, it seems your so hellbent on proving cheap-as-the-only way to do something, that you've lost that the ultimate goal of all of this is simply improvement...however it happens. If what I do offends your sensibilities, state it plainly without resorting to personal jibes. Or, stay the hell away from the topic entirely. 

I've worked for only myself for the past 15 years...3 of those I lost more than I made for the year as I was investing in myself and business.  A couple others I made no more than I did when I graduated college and took as Assistant Buyers job at Stern's Department store in New York in 1985 ($17,500 a year).  If you plotted my income stream it would look more like your Grandma's gumline than most folks' income Social Security applicable wages ...there is occasionally a step back, but it is generally followed by significant progress afterwards.

Please wait to see how the scenario plays out before you take a swipe at me next time....you might be pleasantly surprised by it's ending. If you're not - oh friggin well 

Or, possibly you can learn something....(cheap) old dog 

Ciao, John

[Wayner]

Seriously, you're semi-delusional now   

Seriously - are you drinking now - just a few pips after work? 'Cause, your making assumptions about me like you've read nothing before that I've written 


John 

And the above comment isn't a personal attack? I never attacked you personally, I questioned what you were doing. I didn't publicly try to disgrace you by making stupid comments like "you must be drunk or are you high" or some other bullshit like that. Your comment towards me was very chickenshit.

Not the behavior of a facilitator, I think not.

The reason for this forum is to discuss turntable/vinyl issues. We share information with each other, we learn from each other. If someone questions you, you act like this is your company and your the big shot CEO and what you say goes or else your gonna do what? kick us out, fire us? grow up a bit john and get some thicker skin. If you are going to play king of the mountain, be prepared to be challenged.

By the way, I got several PM's from other members that really don't care for the way you've turned this forum into your own little police state.

Wayner

[TheChairGuy]

I'm a friggin' dude outside of San Francisco that volunteered a few years ago to moderate, and later co-Fac, this circle and take over the reins from a member that was no longer active in vinyl.  I'm not any King of any mountain - I have no ownership stake in AudioCircle - I'm just a audio-lovin' fool (like the rest of us).

No one gets kicked out for anything, there is no 'firing' here - this is no police state - and when have I ever talked anybody down or demeaned them without first having been the bitten one? Or, I've intervened when others have been bitten.  It seems quite a sport to taunt the Facilitators at AudioCircle for some....hold them to some pedestal you don't feel to the need to for yourself. 

Your crankiness has reared up before and been set upon me - and I have blithely set it aside with (planned) good humor.  I know you're a caring and sensitive sort - so I've taken care to bite my tongue and not reply in haste or ill-humor before.  But, I don't like being the object of derision from you...let me formulate my thoughts the way that it naturally comes to me.  That they are not linear or well understood as such at first, so be it, this is part of my creative process of thinking.

Why cannot we all just let each other be ourselves?  I am not some idealized role model of Facilitator....but, despite the expressive writing style, I am very, very honest, fair and direct person.  You crossed the line with me - not AudioCircle so far as I can see.

We need to start having some way to validate claims here

No, no we don't (any of us).  My experience is just that, mine.  I neither say what I say to please or displease you...nor should anyone else have to.

What's even more strange is why wouldn't you buy a NEW ONE first to find out what they are really like, stock?

Why is that strange?  That I chose to save $300 to see how the product worked initially?  Exactly what are you inferring by this?

Or are you afraid that all the idiots at Technics new what they were doing and well......damn them for making such a highly engineered product for so little money that it makes almost all other tables a JOKE.

What is the inference here - that I think engineers are idiots or that the deck isn't amazingly well built?  Neither of which is valid.

Listen Wayner - I happen to know that you're a very kind, caring (and sensitive) person...I see the posts you make trying to help folks all the time.  Your goodness is not lost on me at all - ever. 

I also see the cranky posts - inferring that we are 'strange' to be using record cleaning machines, $3000 speakers and $50+ interconnects.  Everybody goes about connecting with this hobby in different ways and difference price brackets...let them be 

Since when does having a drink after work equate to being drunk or high?  I assume you are of age....please enjoy your pop when you'd like in the comforts of your home - and I will, the same. When you posted your first aggressive post with me yesterday it was right after work (before work end here in Cali, however) - it was needlessly aggressive and pointedly jerky.

Let all of us non-linear thinking, extravagant, creative folks be.  The story of the Technics SL-1200 and Origin Live arm was far from over...it was barely halfway there.  That I still find the tandem inferior to the JVC playback is vexing to me and I am trying to make sense of it.  Let the story play out with deriding me for my choices.  Stop taking a squat on how I report on things...I don't do them with intention to piss you, or anybody else, off.

I do it to progress and learn.  If you do it differently, more power to ya' I truly mean that - but don't deride my choices or second guess my motives.  They are pure and unadulterated by greed or avarice.  I don't care if I am ever right about anything (frankly, I'm not that competitive)....I am here to progress and learn. 

Far too much ink has been spilled on this - it was never meant to be.  I think you're a friggin' great guy, when I'm in Minny I'd love to visit you, but when my lifelong friends are being jerky I tell them to. Not much different - except that you are more than a mite more sensitive than most of my friends...and I'll try to remember that in the future.

Peace - John

 

[Wayner]

You are welcome to visit me any time, and I do consider you a good friend. Sometimes I fight with my siblings, too. It's a way to aire things out abit. Sometimes my comments are left handed, not because I want to slam, but from my experience, I want people to rethink their steps, because they are obviously not happy with the sound of their rig, what ever it is. Many here on this forum contribute, I have even tried some of their ideas, some work, other ideas maybe not. I've seen too many times when people set their system up to be doomed to failure right from the get-go, cause they had a predetermined sort of expectations that they try to force into a happening. That is where failure lurks. My point is people, for example, buy a KAB modified table right way. I ask myself, how do you even know how the original sounded. It's not really fair to the product to tweak the damn thing before its had it's turn on stage. That is some of my point. I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do, I just suggest that there are always other paradigms to a problem's solution, and many times the simplest is the best. Now lets let this part of our discussion die and lets get back to the tables.

 

[doug s.]

i am all for buying used, whenever possible.  in this case, if i were in tcg's position, i would toss the sl1200 & get another one.  used, but in better shape than what he's now using.  and, tho i would also wanna try an o-l arm on a technics, more than one person has told me the technics arms work better on that deck than the o-l arms.  of course, i don't believe it, & i'd do as tcg is doing.     but, i'd start w/a deck that hasn't been trashed, & has its original arm intact.

and, one last point.  before anyone writes off a normal cheap "unregulated" belt drive deck, they owe it to themselves to try a wintage empire...   

doug s.

ps - moderators should never partake in any name-calling, mud-slinging, etc.  even if it's warranted.  get help from the a/c committee - anything else is a conflict of interest...

[Scottdazzle]

i am all for buying used, whenever possible.  in this case, if i were in tcg's position, i would toss the sl1200 & get another one.  used, but in better shape than what he's now using.  and, tho i would also wanna try an o-l arm on a technics, more than one person has told me the technics arms work better on that deck than the o-l arms.  of course, i don't believe it, & i'd do as tcg is doing.     but, i'd start w/a deck that hasn't been trashed, & has its original arm intact.

and, one last point.  before anyone writes off a normal cheap "unregulated" belt drive deck, they owe it to themselves to try a wintage empire...   

doug s.

ps - moderators should never partake in any name-calling, mud-slinging, etc.  even if it's warranted.  get help from the a/c committee - anything else is a conflict of interest...

Doug,

Two questions since you keep reminding us about wintage Empires. One, how hard is it to change arms? Two, do any arms fit right into the Empire mounting hole? Three (okay I lied), do you know a reliable source for belts? Say hi to Sid for me.

Scott

[TheChairGuy]

And so shall it die  

Here's the thing that was missed about the table yesterday in amongst the hoopla'....and it didn't require anything but patience from me apparently.  I have all the set-up requirements down pat...checked and re-checked again.  The deck just required additional break-in time.

Like most components, even having been broken in previously...when they sit for a while, hey need re-training.  It's not my ears - it's the gear. In this case, perhaps the deck, cartridge and tonearm (wiring) needed seasoning...because throughout yesterday it began to bloom into some serious sounds.

I'm at a loss to describe the whole process - or why breakin occurs (either in actuality or in my mind) - I know only that this rig went from a screechy, flat, phasey, annoying mess to pretty dang good in the space of about 12 hours of listening over the past 3 days. More time should flesh it out further.

So, thru me at least, we'll still not know if the Technics arm or mount is any cause of any supposed shortfall of the SL-1200 versus higher priced brethren of any drive type...but, it seems to work fine with aftermarket arms.  I'd have to, right now, put it on par with my JVC deck...even tho the JVC can carry the Grado's and Pickering (my faves) better on it.  That in itself, the fact tha the arm is lower mass and can carry my two faves better than the OL arm, may be the only significant difference.

It took 200 hours for the tonearm wiring to flesh out originally...perhaps each time it sits for a length of time it needs to be reset  

Anyhow, more hours logged in soon...and we'll see where this ends up.  Andres Segovia's Granada (classical Spanish guitar) is sounding very nice right now  

John