[Geardaddy]

Early on in the life of this thread, someone suggested I lock it down since it was starting to get a little divisive and off the subject.  I am glad I didn't since it has generated a lot of interesting food for thought.  One philophical spin I would like to put on this is the following:  what the is best way to assist smaller, boutique speaker manufacturers who are not carried by a majority of brick and mortar audio stores?  Do events like RMAF help or hurt?  Do "speaker shootouts" have any intrinsic value particularly in light of Brian Cheney's comments (which by the way I did not interpret as defensive but more cold and analytical...even appropriate)?  It is my understanding that the Europeans are more apt to put on shootouts and even score them. 

I have spoken for many hours recently with Dale Pitcher, Robert from RSA, Bob from SP Tech, Duke from Audiokinesis, and more recently with Clayton from Emerald Physics.  One piece of consensus is that a smaller format "shootout" has the potential to harm certain participants more than would a larger show where results are diluted out.  This is especially difficult for smaller companies in an environment in which the $ pot is shrinking.  Generation Y and beyond are disinterested and have been sucked into their Ipods and MP3s.  The majority of the general listening public is distracted by HT.  To add insult to injury, an audio engineering legend who was the author of the technology that two of the invited companies now use thinks 2-channel is a waste of time and has chosen to concentrate his efforts on HT.  The select few for whom $ is no object often rely on the brick and mortar stores that sell expensive and named equipment and could care less about taking the time and energy to seek out newer technologies, read threads, and deal with neurotic nitwits like us.  Where does that leave the smaller companies who live on the razor's edge financially and rely and survive through INNOVATION.  What is the best venue for hearing these products when you do not have dealers for them in a majority of major US cities?  I could not find dealers for SP Tech, Emerald Physics, and Audiokinesis in the Chicago area, nor could I easily get equipment for the showcase Pat/Rx8man and I had planned.  It was honestly getting a little frustrating.

Back to the showcase issue:  it is going to put on hold until we can reach a quorum and make sure there is adequate representation of the manufacturers.  While struggling through all this, an idea bubbled up that I wanted to present to you.  Others even saw this before I did.  MaxCast said:

"What the Chicago and WI guys should do is do something like a AK fest between Chicago and Milwaukee.  Start out with a couple of rooms every year and see what happens." 

Clayton from Emerald Physics and Duke from Audiokinesis felt we were onto something here as well:  a Chicago or Midwestern Audiofest.  There is a fairly high concentration of audiophiles in the Midwest.  Clayton said he had been getting a ton of calls from the upper Midwest asking if there were dealers in their area.  There were none.  I think we could start small, rent some hotel rooms, and give people a chance to hear some of these companies products.  I think the potential turnout would be ponentially sizeable particularly since not everyone makes it to RMAF.  Is it a perfect solution.  No.  It would obviously generate similar fruit in terms of threads and reviews to RMAF.  Could we or should we control participant numbers, try to take more control over the setting acoustically?  I guess.  This could also form the basis for a smaller, grass roots phenomenon as MaxCast suggested and be reproduced elsewhere.  I would appreciate feedback on this as a majority of you have more experience than I....



     

[MerRev]

Geardaddy-  I think you're doing a great thing for these smaller manufacturers. 
It seems such a shame some of the folks here want to shoot the idea down. 
The thought was to "showcase" some highly regarded but not so well known loudspeakers.  Call it a Rave-  invite friends with an open mind and try a few combinations of equipment and see what happens.  Most of the members here are responsible enough to only give praise to the products that peaked their interest.   
This thread alone will help generate interest and the more people exposed to hearing them will only further their recognition. 

A Midwestern Audiofest sounds good as well and I know Scott F. and some of the Gateway Audio Society gang has kicked around the idea too.

                                                                                          Merrev

[James Romeyn]

I'm picky & seldom hear products of significant merit.  Duke's philosophy is to eschew advertising because it does not produce sales.  He rather prefers word of mouth "advertising" from people who have heard his speakers.  

Duke has two models currently, both handsome/some might say macho-dimensioned floorstanders of moderate height: the $4500/pr 93 dB monopole Jazz Modules & $9k/pr 96 dB bipolar Dream Maker.  The later model employ a unique & succesful mix of architecture.  Both employ Geddes-type waveguide technology, are 30W OTL compatible, & sound great.  

It's worth taking a day out of your busy schedule to hear them if they are setup to Duke's satisfaction.  He's a talented, congenial & enthusiastic speaker designer worth meeting.    

[Daygloworange]

It seems such a shame some of the folks here want to shoot the idea down. 

Hardly...

A number of people offered up advice on how room acoustics could negatively skew the results of comparing a number of speakers side by side unless controls were put in place. Most people who have been around gear for a while, know just how large the performance gains (and differences) are, that can be achieved with adjusting speaker positioning, proximity to room boundries, room treatment for bass trapping and comb filtering etc...

Advice was offered only to aid those interested in holding an event such as this, to level the playing field, and optimize the setting so that each speaker could achieve it's best potential under the circumstances.

Just throwing a bunch of speakers in a room side by side without taking controls, is not only a waste of time, but the online discussions of the (unjust) outcome could (unnecessarily) damage a certain speaker's reputation. People look to these forums for guidance, and with "herd" mentality being what it is, it could have a negative outcome for an (otherwise) well performing speaker.

Imagine a shootout between a McLaren F1, a ice track motor cycle, and a Zamboni competing on an ice rink. Accumulate data for laptimes around the rink, acceleration, slalom speed, skid pad G force, braking performance etc....

Where do the participants in this example score? Which one would you like to have in your garage? How does that square with the scientific performance data of this level playing field test? How does this test fail? Could this test have been done better?

Most of the members here are responsible enough to only give praise to the products that peaked their interest.   

Based on what they heard, under less than controlled conditions, that could skew the results unless (the suggested) controls were put in place. Overlooking, or neglecting these items mentioned, could potentially make the event a non productive waste of time.

Nobody here wants to see events like this not happen. Helpful advice was offered that would generate a better(and more productive) end result for the event.

Cheers

[Double Ugly]

MaxCast said:

"What the Chicago and WI guys should do is do something like a AK fest between Chicago and Milwaukee.  Start out with a couple of rooms every year and see what happens." 

Clayton from Emerald Physics and Duke from Audiokinesis felt we were onto something here as well:  a Chicago or Midwestern Audiofest.  There is a fairly high concentration of audiophiles in the Midwest.  Clayton said he had been getting a ton of calls from the upper Midwest asking if there were dealers in their area.  There were none.  I think we could start small, rent some hotel rooms, and give people a chance to hear some of these companies products.  I think the potential turnout would be ponentially sizeable particularly since not everyone makes it to RMAF.  Is it a perfect solution.  No.  It would obviously generate similar fruit in terms of threads and reviews to RMAF.  Could we or should we control participant numbers, try to take more control over the setting acoustically?  I guess.  This could also form the basis for a smaller, grass roots phenomenon as MaxCast suggested and be reproduced elsewhere.  I would appreciate feedback on this as a majority of you have more experience than I....

I think it's a great idea, assuming you can get the type manufacturer or retailer support necessary to pull it off.

Remember, it doesn't have to be a huge event in the beginning.  Just get the support required to achieve a satisfactory showing (whatever that means) of small "boutique" manufacturers and let 'er rip.  If the event leads to a groundswell of support from the public and manufacturers alike, you did something right and it will likely grow into something larger.  If not, maybe the purported support of Midwestern audio enthusiasts isn't quite what the vocal few would have it seem. 

Regardless, I believe your efforts are genuine and noble, and I wish you the best. 

[Geardaddy]

Right on Double Ugly.  I envision this as starting small.  Rich Sacks, the curent president of the Chicago Audio Society, mentioned a speaker showcase put on in the Chicago a few years ago featuring Jim Salk and Ellis Audio.  They rented a hotel room or two and apparently had a good time.  I plan on chatting with them about their experience.  I was also planning on speaking with the RMAF gang to gather more info.  I am less inclined to do the side by side comparisons and would rather provide separate rooms for listening...we'll see.  This will hopefully grow beyond three manufacturers and make for a groovy time.  

[ted_b]

Right on Double Ugly.  I envision this as starting small.  Rich Sacks, the curent president of the Chicago Audio Society, mentioned a speaker showcase put on in the Chicago a few years ago featuring Jim Salk and Ellis Audio.  They rented a hotel room or two and apparently had a good time.  I plan on chatting with them about their experience.  I was also planning on speaking with the RMAF gang to gather more info.  I am less inclined to do the side by side comparisons and would rather provide separate rooms for listening...we'll see.  This will hopefully grow beyond three manufacturers and make for a groovy time. 

Ah, sounds great.  Separate listening rooms, no shootout mentality.  Now that's what I'm talkin' about!  (said with animated comic flavor)   

[BrianM]

Nearly a million words in this thread so far, and a lot of fretting about fairness, but no mention that the sort of person who'd consider any of these relatively little-known, boutique, specialist's specialist speakers, is (obviously) probably also the sort of person with enough brains to realize that how the speaker performs in some auditorium showcase won't guarantee how it performs in his listening room.  Speaker designers should concentrate on designing the best speaker they know how, instead of whinging about not having control over  every informal event that comes along.  It's unseemly.  Your speakers are gonna get judged in all variety of circumstances beyond your control, and people are usually bright enough to sort out the variables for themselves.  It all boils down to personal taste anyway.

[arthurs]

I've never really been overly comfortable with the whole "shootout" concept, even having participated in a couple and hosting one....the whole winners and losers portion has always bothered me...and the damage that it can do to a manufacturer or a product...repeat something enough and it becomes some sort of truth for people, never mind that it's based on opinion and not fact....and I'm not sure calling it a showcase and stacking all the opinions next to each other changes that interpretation much....

I like the idea of separate rooms and you could also just compile notes based on what the strengths and weaknesses of each speaker were in the given scenario, giving only a perspective of compiled opinion on that specific speaker based on that days listening, in that setup, in that room....forego how they "compare" 

Now that said, it would then be up the community and participants to not take that collective and subjective opinion and infer some sort of results or meaning to them...not sure that can be prevented....

Why not take a longer arc to the affair and profile or showcase one speaker per session and do several over a longer period of time?  Or do them all in one event and release showcase profiles of each with a time gap in between each?  More effort for sure, but if we're serious about bringing quality perspective to the community, make the investment....

I honestly understand how the manufacturers feel, it can potentially have a significant positive or negative impact on their sales, it's easy to judge them as whining when our livelihoods aren't at stake....but I also don't know if it's reasonable that they can have an overt amount of input or control over the proceedings, no more than they do over my buying their product and posting at length my opinion of it...

Feel free to "showcase" my opinions against others in this thread and tell me where it ranks....   

[doug s.]

Nearly a million words in this thread so far, and a lot of fretting about fairness, but no mention that the sort of person who'd consider any of these relatively little-known, boutique, specialist's specialist speakers, is (obviously) probably also the sort of person with enough brains to realize that how the speaker performs in some auditorium showcase won't guarantee how it performs in his listening room.  Speaker designers should concentrate on designing the best speaker they know how, instead of whinging about not having control over  every informal event that comes along.  It's unseemly.  Your speakers are gonna get judged in all variety of circumstances beyond your control, and people are usually bright enough to sort out the variables for themselves.  It all boils down to personal taste anyway.

all you say is true...  but... speakers knowingly being auditioned in conditions they were never designed for?  seems a bit ridiculous, to me.  much as i would love to hear all these speakers, i wouldn't be interested in hearing them in a set-up that would give me no indication of how they sound in their intended use...

ymmv,

doug s.

[opaqueice]

I can certainly understand why a manufacturer would be worried about having their speaker "bested" in a shootout.  It's probably going to hurt their bottom line.  And let's be honest - nobody wants to read negative comments about the speakers in their living room.  I'm sure we've all had that sinking feeling, that nagging doubt that we've really got a good system.

But one thing that really bugs me about audio is that there's sometimes an attitude that everything is personal taste, that there's nothing objective to be said about anything.  I really don't agree with that - obviously the decisions you make are personal, but there's lots of objective information that can help with those decisions, and it's a service to the hobby to have it available.  If 20 people are all blown away by a certain speaker when they do a side-by-side comparison with some others, I want to know about it so I can go listen to it to and decide for myself!

So all things considered I think shootouts are great, and I wish there were more of them.  They should be done under the best circumstances possible, but life has limits and nothing is perfect - and something is much better than nothing.

[BrianM]

Nearly a million words in this thread so far, and a lot of fretting about fairness, but no mention that the sort of person who'd consider any of these relatively little-known, boutique, specialist's specialist speakers, is (obviously) probably also the sort of person with enough brains to realize that how the speaker performs in some auditorium showcase won't guarantee how it performs in his listening room.  Speaker designers should concentrate on designing the best speaker they know how, instead of whinging about not having control over  every informal event that comes along.  It's unseemly.  Your speakers are gonna get judged in all variety of circumstances beyond your control, and people are usually bright enough to sort out the variables for themselves.  It all boils down to personal taste anyway.

all you say is true...  but... speakers knowingly being auditioned in conditions they were never designed for?  seems a bit ridiculous, to me.  much as i would love to hear all these speakers, i wouldn't be interested in hearing them in a set-up that would give me no indication of how they sound in their intended use...

ymmv,

doug s.

Again my point: people are smart enough to know that a speaker wasn't designed for a large auditorium, and will interpret the outcome accordingly. If that weren't the case, nobody would've jumped all over it here, as nearly everyone has.

I wouldn't be interested in that kind of setup either. If someone buys a speaker because it sounded great in the auditorium, well, how much chance is there he'd pick the "right" speaker under ideal conditions anyway?  He's just playing around with his money at that point.

[BrianM]

As for impacting a speaker builder's livelihood, I would think having an excellent product getting judged in an unfair environment would rank pretty low on the list of worries.  How about quality control, business model, marketing, reliability, service, cost control, etc.

[ted_b]

Nearly a million words in this thread so far, and a lot of fretting about fairness, but no mention that the sort of person who'd consider any of these relatively little-known, boutique, specialist's specialist speakers, is (obviously) probably also the sort of person with enough brains to realize that how the speaker performs in some auditorium showcase won't guarantee how it performs in his listening room.  Speaker designers should concentrate on designing the best speaker they know how, instead of whinging about not having control over  every informal event that comes along.  It's unseemly.  Your speakers are gonna get judged in all variety of circumstances beyond your control, and people are usually bright enough to sort out the variables for themselves.  It all boils down to personal taste anyway.

all you say is true...  but... speakers knowingly being auditioned in conditions they were never designed for?  seems a bit ridiculous, to me.  much as i would love to hear all these speakers, i wouldn't be interested in hearing them in a set-up that would give me no indication of how they sound in their intended use...

ymmv,

doug s.

Again my point: people are smart enough to know that a speaker wasn't designed for a large auditorium, and will interpret the outcome accordingly. If that weren't the case, nobody would've jumped all over it here, as nearly everyone has.

I wouldn't be interested in that kind of setup either. If someone buys a speaker because it sounded great in the auditorium, well, how much chance is there he'd pick the "right" speaker under ideal conditions anyway?  He's just playing around with his money at that point.

Brian,
I'm confused by your posts.  First you say that speaker builders shouldn't whine about being eval'd in less than ideal circumstances because speakers will reside in all kinds of setups (big auditoriums??).  You also said listeners are smarter than to put much credence into auditorium sound, and will make their own decisions.  Yet now you say that you are not a fan of that auditorium setup either and "If someone buys a speaker because it sounded great in the auditorium, well, how much chance is there he'd pick the "right" speaker......."  ??  What is your point, exactly?

[doug s.]

...Again my point: people are smart enough to know that a speaker wasn't designed for a large auditorium, and will interpret the outcome accordingly. If that weren't the case, nobody would've jumped all over it here, as nearly everyone has...

brian, i understand your point.  again, my point is i don't understand why anyone would even want to hear the speakers, as initially proposed.   

as prewiously alluded to by someone else, i would love to test drive a ferrari.  (or lotus exige, or ariel atom, or ducati hypermotard, or???)  but, i have no interest trying these on ice...

ymmv,

doug s

[Brian Cheney]

The traditional way of getting attention for a new audio product is exhibiting at shows like RMAF the T.H.E. Show, which are relatively inexpensive and are covered by the audio press.

Owners of such products can post their impressions online at sites like this one, audioasylum, audioreview, or elsewhere.

Many regional audio clubs (like Chicago's) are happy to host presentations by good new manufacturers.  Just be prepared to plunk your speakers down into an unfamiliar environment, hooked up to gear known to sound great wth some other speaker, and have little to no setup time.  That's a make-or-break, scary proposition, but if things go well you can build a good reputation.

There are now literally thousands of speakers out there from over 600 brands, at every price point, with new ones announced weekly.  You'll need both luck and talent to make a splash in that big pond.

B Cheney
President VMPS Ribbon
www.vmpsaudio.com

[BrianM]

Brian,
I'm confused by your posts.  First you say that speaker builders shouldn't whine about being eval'd in less than ideal circumstances because speakers will reside in all kinds of setups (big auditoriums??).  You also said listeners are smarter than to put much credence into auditorium sound, and will make their own decisions.  Yet now you say that you are not a fan of that auditorium setup either and "If someone buys a speaker because it sounded great in the auditorium, well, how much chance is there he'd pick the "right" speaker......."  ??  What is your point, exactly?

You just summed up all three of my points.  Would you rather I'd made only one?

[BrianM]

...Again my point: people are smart enough to know that a speaker wasn't designed for a large auditorium, and will interpret the outcome accordingly. If that weren't the case, nobody would've jumped all over it here, as nearly everyone has...

brian, i understand your point.  again, my point is i don't understand why anyone would even want to hear the speakers, as initially proposed.   

as prewiously alluded to by someone else, i would love to test drive a ferrari.  (or lotus exige, or ariel atom, or ducati hypermotard, or???)  but, i have no interest trying these on ice...

ymmv,

doug s

Then we agree.

[BrianM]

Just be prepared to plunk your speakers down into an unfamiliar environment, hooked up to gear known to sound great wth some other speaker, and have little to no setup time.  That's a make-or-break, scary proposition, but if things go well you can build a good reputation.

And would seem to dictate to some extent what kind of speakers one tries making a living off of.  If a speaker requires ideal conditions to stand out, it may be an ideal speaker but not an ideal business model.  But most of the time, the cream rises and outstanding speakers acquit themselves well in a variety of real-world environments (even hotel rooms).  And of course, an auditorium audition would qualify as an outlier.

[Brian Cheney]

Well, if you want, for example, to make your reputation for high quality, extended bass, then set up in an auditorium and have to spend a lot of time explaining why your audience hears nothing below 40Hz other than floor resonances from a hollow stage, then pray for a very knowledgable and understanding group of audiophiles who paid attention in physics class.