[Daygloworange]

Depending on how soon this is, and when my friend Mr. Daygloworange gets the flatpack done, I could also have my GR-research ob-7's built and show those as well.

Tony, your flatpacks will be going out early this coming week. You might even see them before next weekend. 

On the topic of setting up the speakers in a large hall/room.....having done it a number of times in a 35000 cu. ft space, all of the aforementioned concerns are real. If you make some efforts, you can minimize the negative affects to a great degree, and get some decent results. Here are some pics of what we did for our TAAS get togethers, with fairly good results. There was a meeting last year that was organized in a church that apparently was not as sonically successful due to room acoustics, so the affects of what is being mentioned here, are real.

This was our setup, the room was surrounded by (24) Eckel acoustics panels ( 30" x 72" perforated metal with 2" thick OC 703):



Our 2007 Amp Comparo:



Our 2007 vinyl/vinyl/digital Comparo:



Cheers

[Geardaddy]

Another concept inherent to this showcase that I failed to articulate was this:  demoing box speaker technologies that transcend (or claim to transcend) the limitations of a box design.  Some of this is described in the following thread in regards to SP Tech:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=48559.0

I have always been a sucker for electrostats since they appeared to create a window to the music, with outstanding transparency, detail and transients.  I was less than enthused about the lack of dynamics particulary in the lower octaves (at least in the speakers I heard).  The Summits somehow possess electrostatic characteristics with box speaker benefits and it appears that the RSA Sasons and SP Tech line have similar attributes.  A potentially more interesting showcase would be to throw in or substitute a dipole design like Emerald Physics into the fray (as was suggested to me earlier in this thread).  Due to the logistics involved, we could always do that in the future....    

[bluemike]

Gear Daddy

Another speaker that I would love to throw into the dance is the Hansen Elixir

The inner realism of these speakers sends goose bumps down your spine ...
I've never heard a speaker capture the music the way the Hansen's do

To be fair i've also never heard the Intuitive RSAD and SP Techs to draw comparisons

I have heard ml summits before and just recently the Avalon isis..very good speakers in there own right ..to these ears nothing touches the sound I heard from the Hansen's

Enjoy the music !!!!

[opnly bafld]

I have heard ml summits

I believe the speaker pictured on the right is the Summit referred to by Geardaddy: http://www.intuitiveaudio.com/#

Lin

[bluemike]

I have heard ml summits

I believe the speaker pictured on the right is the Summit referred to by Geardaddy: http://www.intuitiveaudio.com/#

Lin

I was referring to one of Geardaddy's other posts where he was discussing electrostats and the ML Summits.

[Duke]

Geardaddy wrote: 

"Another concept inherent to this showcase that I failed to articulate was this:  demoing box speaker technologies that transcend (or claim to transcend) the limitations of a box design."

Hmmmm.  Would you be open to me tossing out as a possible candidate a box speaker designed specifically to emulate characteristics of the SoundLab A-1? 

By the way, the Emerald Physics CS2 is a dipole, not a bipole, below 1 kHz.  Above 1 kHz, it's a monopole.  I'm an Emerald Physics dealer.

Duke

[James Romeyn]

Speakers designed for typical home listening environments would not do well in an auditorium or theater.  If that is your intended venue the results would be suspect at the least, misleading at the worst, and pointless for most audiophiles.

I have to disagree with this comment.  Most listening rooms are pretty small, which means they interact strongly with sound sources.  There will be large variations in bass response as a function of position, for example, and sometimes lots of reflected sound with only small time delays relative to direct sound.  Changing the dimensions or layout of the room a little can radically alter the sound, as anyone that's rearranged furniture or speaker positioning knows very well.  All of that depends also on the dispersion pattern of the speakers.  So listening impressions in small rooms are going to vary widely depending on the room and the specific setup, making them pretty unreliable.

On the other hand in a large room all of the effects I mentioned are reduced.  Of course that doesn't necessarily make it any better of a guide to what the sound will be like in your room, but at least things are on an even footing comparing between speakers.

So I say let 'em rip and have a good time.  That's what this hobby is all about, last time I checked...

Most domestic rooms add about 9 dB at 20 Hz; an extremely large space will probably have more gain below 20 Hz though that's probably completely irrelevant because of so little program material down there & the fact that the speakers & the rest of the system probably don't have power down there anyway.  The very large space will still have gain from 100 down to 20 Hz, but probably less overall.  I'm guessing this venue heavily favors the speaker w/ the most midbass, which will otherwise be sorely lacking in the space. 

Take your speakers that sound perfect in your listening room & set them up outdoors.  The larger the space the more it will mimic outdoors.  I'm thinking it's way too disimilar from normal use to make any sense.  To me about as fun as seeing what your Porsche GT handless like w/ bias ply tires.  If you call that fun, then it's fun! 

     

[James Romeyn]

Gear Daddy

...I have heard ml summits before and just recently the Avalon isis..very good speakers in there own right ..

I heard the early Summits & the late '06-early '07 upgrade.  Early models OK but notthing to write home about.  Later model w/ upgraded stat panel far better dyanmics & musicality; pretty darn nice, definitely recommend a listen.  Don't listen to the early model thinking they equal the later versions.    

[Geardaddy]

Duke and others, thanks for chiming in.  The panel versus box issue is actually far more interesting to me conceptually and would make for a kool showcase.  In my own recent speaker odyssey, I was searching for a speaker that combined attributes of both and felt I found that to some degree with Dale Pitcher's Intuitive line (dynamic, large sweetspot, diaphenous and transparent, etc).  I know there are other speaker lines (both box and panel) that can now claim this and I am intrigued to hear them.  King Audio (out of Taiwan  I believe) has peaked my interest as has the Emerald Physics.  I live in MN (Maggie country...) and have always had a fondness for electrostats.  They are spooky and bewitching but not always the most practical (at least in their older permutations).

In regards to the showcase, I emailed Clayton at Emerald Physics to see if he had a dealer in the upper midwest and he said there was none.  He said he could possibly send a pair, but I want to make sure they are properly dialed in and set up by someone who is familliar with them to make sure they are fairly represented.  I also do not want to overload things logistically.  If SP Tech falls through, adding EP would certainly be feasible.

Andrew

 

[mdhoover]

The word "Showcase" sounds much better than "Shootout" to me.  Caution regarding any negative listening impressions would seem to be in order for the reasons given above by others.  That doesn't mean that such an event couldn't be fun and potentially informative.

[Brian Cheney]

It doesn't matter what you call it, there will be comparisons made and judgments called, there will be a winner and some losers. 

That's a given, so it is incumbent on the instigators of the "comparison" that the venue be good for critical listening, and each speaker optimally set up.  Anything less smacks of favoritism or outright rigging the results.

B Cheney
Pres VMPS Ribbon
www.vmpsaudio.com

[Aether Audio]

Geardaddy et.al.,

Thanks for considering us.   Sounds like it could be a fun event.  Although, nobody wants to see anyone ending up looking like the "loser" in such a comparison.  Part of the problem though in hosting such an event will be presenting products that are truly "comparable."  In the end, you really need to try real hard to match up products of similar "physics" so as not to be comparing the equivalent of "apples to oranges."

An extreme example might be a bookshelf monitor against a floor standing system using multiple big woofers.  If all things else are equal in the midrange & highs, the big speaker is likely to be the more impressive one.  You'd think most folks would take the differences into consideration, but the impact and "emotion" of a system with impressive bass will often "steal the show," regardless of everyones attempt at applying reason and common sense.  In a sense, the "little guy" looses the "fight" (I know, that's not what this is supposed to be about), no matter how good of a "scrapper" he is.

SP Tech sure isn't out to step on any toes or make any enemies.  Considering that the bass performance of all our models is rated "anechoic" (no room gain), against many other products they might seem to have an advantage regardless of the size room they are in - as far as bass performance goes.  If you place any of them (save maybe the Timepiece Mini) up against a design that uses say... a more typical 8-inch paper or plastic cone woofer tuned to something like 40Hz... well, it just wouldn't seem very fair to me. 

As I said, we're not about trying to put any other designs down or win any contests.  To be honest, I think if you were to include any of our products it would be more fair if they were matched against speakers that were very close to them in design and/or even models that were somewhat physically larger.  We sure wouldn't want to come out of such an event "winning the battle but loosing the war." 

I know this event is now being called a "showcase" and not a shoot-out, but don't underestimate human nature.  Any time 2 competing products are compared side-by-side... it's a contest.  Don't believe me?  Just take your nice looking wife to the bar with your friend and his nice looking wife and watch the rest of the men.  Heck, watch the other women too for that matter.  I don't care how big, flashy and obvious your wives' wedding rings are - the judging starts the moment you walk through the door.  You get my point.

I feel that each product has its strengths and weaknesses and should be presented in a way that highlights what they have to offer.  It should also be done in a way that a given model is combined with synergistic equipment that will together appeal to the individual that likes that certain type of sound.  Doing all of the above seems very difficult in a venue that by default is forced to appeal to a larger mass of individuals.

Of course, SP Tech is "officially" out of the loop on any of this as we will not be providing product for the event.  You guys are free to do whatever you wish and don't require any sanctioning from us.  I guess my point in posting here is that however the thing turns out, we would certainly hope there would be no ill feelings toward us by anyone.  We're all adults here and you wouldn't tend to think that there would be problems, but you also know how much emotion folks invest into this hobby.  And of course, were talking about the livelihood of some of us too.  Just so you know and as I'm sure Geardaddy will attest, we had no foreknowledge of this and were contacted "out of the blue" about it by him.  In the end I wish to express the fact that we are honored to have been asked to attend and our greatest wish is that everyone has fun and nobody looses sight of the intent of what this event is supposed to be about... FUN!!!

So...hopefully you guys can pull something off and have a good time.  We may or may not be there, but we wish you all the best regardless!

Take care,
-Bob

[Bigfish]

It doesn't matter what you call it, there will be comparisons made and judgments called, there will be a winner and some losers. 

That's a given, so it is incumbent on the instigators of the "comparison" that the venue be good for critical listening, and each speaker optimally set up.  Anything less smacks of favoritism or outright rigging the results.

B Cheney
Pres VMPS Ribbon
www.vmpsaudio.com

I would be willing to bet that this comment by Mr. Cheney will prove to be 100% correct when we we read the posts following the G2G.  Go back and read the posts from Rocky Mount Audiofest.  In that venue you had manufacturers working hard to make their gear sound great and the overwhelming comments was that the sound produced in most rooms was not outstanding. 

Certainly, I would like the opportunity to listen to a lot of different speakers but I would want to hear them in a setting where the owner has worked hard to bring out their best in that room.  I just think that going to listen to several speakers at one G2G may sound like fun but in the end will be confusing!  As I said earlier I am certain the posts following the event will be entertaining and predictable.

Ken

 

[opaqueice]

This thread is an eye-opener...  I've never seen so much defensiveness so far in advance of anything even happening!

You know, I've read that ATC (one of the premier pro studio monitor manufacturers) voices their speakers for a flat anechoic response by suspending them from the ceiling of an enormous warehouse.  Basically as close to free space as you can get - and many of their products are small near-field monitors.

My point is - whatever some here may be saying - I think a large room is the best place to evaluate relative speaker performance, particularly if it's reasonably dead.  It may not be the best place for a given speaker to sound good, but it allows a neutral comparison without all the complications of small enclosed spaces. 

[ted_b]

This thread is an eye-opener...  I've never seen so much defensiveness so far in advance of anything even happening!

You know, I've read that ATC (one of the premier pro studio monitor manufacturers) voices their speakers for a flat anechoic response by suspending them from the ceiling of an enormous warehouse.  Basically as close to free space as you can get - and many of their products are small near-field monitors.

My point is - whatever some here may be saying - I think a large room is the best place to evaluate relative speaker performance, particularly if it's reasonably dead.  It may not be the best place for a given speaker to sound good, but it allows a neutral comparison without all the complications of small enclosed spaces. 

The problems here are numerous, but what about those speaker designs that require room reflections.  This years CES/THE Show saw the Guru speakers again, and they sounded incredible, according to many......they require setup against the front wall!  They would not like this "showcase".   

My opinion:  have the designer and his speaker in a dedicated room, with equipment he picked and/or approved.  The designer can explain why you are hearing what you are hearing, explaining away room interactions, etc.  The goal: simply get to know these designs, and hopefully pick ones that may work in a in-home evaluation, and within your budget.  Not much different than a mini-RMAF, but to put all these folks on the road , then show off their designs in some anechoic chamber is nuts, IMO.

BTW, I loved my active ATC's, but the ones I bought used (SCM150ASL's) were too big for my room. 

[Double Ugly]

This thread is an eye-opener...  I've never seen so much defensiveness so far in advance of anything even happening!

It's interesting you should see it that way.

From my vantage point, the only comments which might be construed as "defensive" are those from the president of VMPS, and thus far his company has not been invited to provide a speaker.  Consequently, one would have to conclude his comments are merely opines on the event, and by definition cannot be defensive.

SP Pres is the only 'invited' manufacturer who's posted in this thread, and I perceive his comments to be anything but defensive.

You know, I've read that ATC (one of the premier pro studio monitor manufacturers) voices their speakers for a flat anechoic response by suspending them from the ceiling of an enormous warehouse.  Basically as close to free space as you can get - and many of their products are small near-field monitors.

My point is - whatever some here may be saying - I think a large room is the best place to evaluate relative speaker performance, particularly if it's reasonably dead.  It may not be the best place for a given speaker to sound good, but it allows a neutral comparison without all the complications of small enclosed spaces. 

I know a mixing/mastering professional who claims to have taken a pair of Timepiece 2.0s into his backyard, and he expressed amazement at their performance in the free-air environment. 

I'm not confident of the relevance, but if the anecdote is true (the account was offered by the pro himself during a phone call), it would seem the speakers require little in the way of room reinforcement.

[mdhoover]

It doesn't matter what you call it, there will be comparisons made and judgments called, there will be a winner and some losers. 

That's a given, so it is incumbent on the instigators of the "comparison" that the venue be good for critical listening, and each speaker optimally set up.  Anything less smacks of favoritism or outright rigging the results.

B Cheney
Pres VMPS Ribbon

Those concerns are insightful and seemingly valid.  One would hope that people would be smart enough to keep the limitations of such an event in mind.  An event such as the RMAF has a LOT more industry participants, and each manufacturer set up their own room(s).  But even at the 2007 RMAF, which I attended, I thought it was difficult to draw any meaningful conclusions.  In fact, I said so straight away when I posted about my impressions of the RMAF on another audio site:

1) Extremely difficult (if not impossible) to compare and contrast individual components in any meaningful way. Far too many variables in terms of equipment, cabling, volume level, and selection of music played. This was obvious to my non-audiophile wife as well. It was even difficult if not impossible to compare whole rooms for the same reasons. Plus, I didn’t get to every room, and even in the ones I did get to, time was limited.

=======================================================================================================================================================================================================================
Bigfish made an interesting prediction:

I would be willing to bet that this comment by Mr. Cheney will prove to be 100% correct when we we read the posts following the G2G.  Go back and read the posts from Rocky Mount Audiofest.  In that venue you had manufacturers working hard to make their gear sound great and the overwhelming comments was that the sound produced in most rooms was not outstanding. 

I would hope that the participants would be smarter than that.  In my prior post about the RMAF on another audio site, I didn't feel that I was overly negative, although as I read it again it does look like I didn't think most of the rooms were outstanding.  But how often do audiophiles like us think that sound is "outstanding" anyway?:

3) Although there was quite a bit of variability in the quality of the sound, I didn’t find any of the rooms to have really BAD sound. Some of it was outstanding, much of it very good to excellent, and some of it was just okay. Nothing was terrible, unless the huge price tag were to be factored in. I was a bit dismayed--at LEAST twice--by speakers that sounded excellent, like they should sell for around 5-10K, maybe 15-20K tops, only to be told by the exhibitor that they were 50K or even 70K. I’m no Albert Porter, but I thought some of the prices were about 10-fold too high, literally. Maybe that’s way off base. Maybe it’s not.

The main point is that having at least some direct listening experience is probably better than none at all.  But any "outcome" should probably be taken with a huge grain of salt.  Also, what are the odds that all of the listeners will agree on what the outcome even is????  Slim, I'd bet. 

[Sonny]

So much talk...
Question is...
When and where will the event be held and who's invited? aa

[James Romeyn]

This is a valid & interesting thread me thinks.

I listen to a LOT of different systems & may get to hear gear at home more than average.  My experience is as another already posted: I seldom hear great reproduced sound. Lack of musicality & listening fatigue are ubiquitous.  But indeed I have on occassion heard great reproduced sound.  Often in these cases I will hear certain characteristics lacking at home.  I can be inspired to attain those characteristics & search for ways to achieve them, usually & hopefully at lower cost than the favored systems: YG Acoustics $97k Anat Reference loudspeaker is a good example.    

On the one hand I thought the point was very well taken that audiophiles often disagree.  OTOH something like this has happened more than once: myself & another very experience audio nerd carefully auditioned a GREAT Stevie Ray CD, then we switched CDP.  Conclusions appeared in my head but I literally BIT MY LIP so as to keep undefiled the other audioperson's (HP's ex-setup guy) opinions.  We listened further.  I eventually asked him what he thought & his words were almost exactly the same as those in my head, almost the same sentence.  Interesting.

The recent Stereophile magazine broohooha about Gordon Holt's current negativity toward the high-end was interesting.  Gordon apparently prefers blind testing by pro journalists.  He substantiated this opinion by recalling that he had personally participated in blind speaker comparisons several times; pros often came to a consensus of winners & loosers during these blind tests.  I'm not a huge fan of blind tests & I certainly disagree w/ Peter Axtell's attitude.  But it would be generally a very good thing if journalists could & would have their subjective performance evaluations completely separated from the speaker's cosmetics (we can all decide on our own how we feel about that; much easier to describe objectively) & also separated from all the direct & indirect perks the journalists receive by their position of being hawkers of the manufacturer's products.

 

[James Romeyn]

So much talk...
Question is...
When and where will the event be held and who's invited? aa

When all is said & done, more is usually said.