Speaker Showcase: Intuitive Design vs Ridge Street Audio vs SP Tech

Duke · « **Reply #20 on:** 26 Jan 2008, 09:20 pm »

Excellent points, Brian. I'd thought of some but not all of them. I agree that an auditorium-sized room wouldn't be a good environment for most home audio speakers, but maybe if the critical listening was done as close to near-field as practical it might work. What do you think?

Geardaddy and Rx8man, I applaud your efforts to arrange comparative listening sessions of these three innovative, highly worthy but obviously non-mainstream designs. I don't know the designers of the Sasons, but Dale Pitcher and Bob Smith are friends of mine and superb designers, as well as some of the real "good guys" in the world of audio. So I hope that the effect of your listening session is to raise awareness of just how outstanding the efforts of some of these smaller companies are, rather than to have one walk away as the "winner" and the others go home to worries about "damage control". It sounds to me like you're aware of this, but I just wanted to bring it up because I don't think the setting will really allow an in-depth, level-playing-field comparison.

Duke

edited for clarity

alotaklipsch · « **Reply #21 on:** 26 Jan 2008, 09:21 pm »

I am definately interested(Chicago area), and have some unusual gear I may be able to bring

Geardaddy · « **Reply #22 on:** 26 Jan 2008, 09:37 pm »

Amen Duke. This event was simply meant to be fun and raise awareness of these speakers. I chose the term "shootout" since it is fimiliar lingo and would get people's attention, and that was obviously a mistake. I am an Intuitive Design owner and also consider Dale Pitcher a friend. In dialoguing with Robert from RSA, I can honestly say the same thing. In regards to the points Brian raised, I agree in part. There needs to be some attempt at standardization, sure. Can we control the design of the setup to remove all potential "confounding" variables? No. Have I seen those same standards applied to trade shows and magazine reviews? Hardly. Herein lies the problem with this hobby: it lives at the interface between engineering and physics and the human psyche and is prone to generating a multiplicity of opinions, many of which become emotional and almost religious in nature. I have read many a thread where things are on the verge of jihad over minor and petty issues. We need to relax. The whole purpose of this post was to invite those interested to come and enjoy the show. The Ridge Street Audio gang spent several hours at the recent RMAF simply chatting with Dale Pitcher. They said it was the highlight of the show. That is the spirit of this event. Nothing more, nothing less.

Duke · « **Reply #23 on:** 26 Jan 2008, 10:12 pm »

Thanks for the reply, Geardaddy.

I'm trying to think of alternatives to a single very large room. Relatively few speakers designed for use in the home are likely to sound good in a very large room. Worst-case scenario here is you have people leaving the event saying, "gosh, they all sucked - can't wait to get home to my Blo$e Acoustimess!"

How many people do you expect?

Duke

Geardaddy · « **Reply #24 on:** 26 Jan 2008, 11:04 pm »

Hey Duke. The number of participants is TBD. I was worried about the Thrasher room initially when it was proposed. I spoke with Robert at RSA and he said it could work. We are honestly open to discussions in relation to the venue. One option that was also presented was a large dedicated listening room (22 x 35...) in someone's home in the Chicago area. That could obviously work but would limit numbers. This all is fairly embryonic at this stage. We decided to put out feelers to gauge the level of interest before ironing out the details. Duke, I am glad to hear you know and support Dale. He is a stellar human being and our relationship beyond audio is what makes it all the more special. Again, the true, heartfelt impetus in this was to celebrate him and RSA and SP Tech. It is a speaker celebration and not a shoot-out, WWF kind of thing....

opaqueice · « **Reply #25 on:** 27 Jan 2008, 12:02 am »

Quote from: Brian Cheney on 26 Jan 2008, 04:48 pm

Speakers designed for typical home listening environments would not do well in an auditorium or theater. If that is your intended venue the results would be suspect at the least, misleading at the worst, and pointless for most audiophiles.

I have to disagree with this comment. Most listening rooms are pretty small, which means they interact strongly with sound sources. There will be large variations in bass response as a function of position, for example, and sometimes lots of reflected sound with only small time delays relative to direct sound. Changing the dimensions or layout of the room a little can radically alter the sound, as anyone that's rearranged furniture or speaker positioning knows very well. All of that depends also on the dispersion pattern of the speakers. So listening impressions in small rooms are going to vary widely depending on the room and the specific setup, making them pretty unreliable.

On the other hand in a large room all of the effects I mentioned are reduced. Of course that doesn't necessarily make it any better of a guide to what the sound will be like in your room, but at least things are on an even footing comparing between speakers.

So I say let 'em rip and have a good time. That's what this hobby is all about, last time I checked...

Christof · « **Reply #26 on:** 27 Jan 2008, 12:34 am »

Quote from: opaqueice on 27 Jan 2008, 12:02 am

Quote from: Brian Cheney on 26 Jan 2008, 04:48 pm
Speakers designed for typical home listening environments would not do well in an auditorium or theater. If that is your intended venue the results would be suspect at the least, misleading at the worst, and pointless for most audiophiles.

I have to disagree with this comment. Most listening rooms are pretty small, which means they interact strongly with sound sources. There will be large variations in bass response as a function of position, for example, and sometimes lots of reflected sound with only small time delays relative to direct sound. Changing the dimensions or layout of the room a little can radically alter the sound, as anyone that's rearranged furniture or speaker positioning knows very well. All of that depends also on the dispersion pattern of the speakers. So listening impressions in small rooms are going to vary widely depending on the room and the specific setup, making them pretty unreliable.

On the other hand in a large room all of the effects I mentioned are reduced. Of course that doesn't necessarily make it any better of a guide to what the sound will be like in your room, but at least things are on an even footing comparing between speakers.

So I say let 'em rip and have a good time. That's what this hobby is all about, last time I checked...

I became a believer in SP Tech when I first heard a pair of Revelations in a 4000+sq.ft room with concrete floors

Provided this rave is not set up as a ego driven competition between manufacturers, it could be a very good way to expose people to these small, but wonderful, manufacturers. Sounds like fun, count me in

TRADERXFAN · « **Reply #27 on:** 27 Jan 2008, 12:46 am »

I would appreciate the opportunity to listen to these designs. I live in Naperville, IL.

I think the benefit for the manufacturers is for people like me to be exposed to what these designs offer. I haven't been to a RMAF or CES or other venue to see them. Hopefully people will be willing to share the sweet spot...

Daygloworange · « **Reply #28 on:** 27 Jan 2008, 12:59 am »

Quote from: MaxCast on 26 Jan 2008, 07:27 pm

This does offer an opportunity for a bunch of people to meet, have fun and hear speakers they may not have been able to here before.

I agree. It's a lot of fun hanging out with other audiophiles. The highlights of get togethers usually end up being mostly about hanging out with others.

I would also highly recommend trying to organize your schedule to attend RMAF. Most companies are in similar sized rooms, so most are working within the same room parameters.

I could easily tell mostly what a certain speaker was all about, with a few cuts of my favorite tracks playing, and sitting in the sweet spot.

If you value time, then I would say RMAF is one of the best investments in time you could make to check out products from other manufacturers. It's full on audio immersion.

Cheers

Duke · « **Reply #29 on:** 27 Jan 2008, 01:03 am »

I can think of three reasons why most speakers designed for home audio would not fare well in a theater or auditorium.

1. Inadequate room support of the bass region. In a very large room the speakers will only receive significant boundary reinforcement from the floor, whereas in a home listening room the walls and even the ceiling often contribute to boundary reinforcement. So many speakers that sound balanced in a home listening room will sound thin and anemic in a theater or auditorium.

2. At any significant distance from the speakers in a theater or auditorium, you are listening almost entirely to the power response; the speaker's on-axis response is virtually irrelevant. But in a home listening room, even if you aren't "nearfield" the speaker's first-arrival sound still plays a very significant role in tonal balance. Most home speakers are optimized for good first-arrival sound, and the power response is usually poor in comparison with quality prosound speakers that are designed with the sort of radiation pattern control you need for decent tonal balance in large venues.

3. In a theater or auditorium, especially if there is a significant noise floor for any reason, the output required from the speakers for serious listening will be far higher than would be required in a home environment. So a speaker with adequate thermal and mechanical limits for home listening may well be driven past its linear limits when trying to fill such a large space.

Christoff, the reason the SP Techs sounded so good in such a large space is they have very good power response as a consequence of their well-controlled radiation patterns (which I happen to believe is a desirable characteristic). Of the three speakers slated for the competition, imho they'd have the best chance of sounding good in a very large room. The Emerald Physics CS2 was mentioned also, and in addition to controlled directivity the CS2 would be DSP equalized for the environment, so there's a good chance it would have the best tonal balance of the bunch. Disclaimer - I peddle Emerald Physics. I'm not trying to plug them here; just making note of the non-level playing field that imho would exist in a very large room like a theater or auditorium.

Duke

ted_b · « **Reply #30 on:** 27 Jan 2008, 01:20 am »

Being uniquely positioned here as probably the only owner of both SP Tech and RSA Sasons (and if it hadn't been for some postponed trips to Louisville last year then my friend Dale would have had Summits here, probably replacing one or the other forementioned), I would love to come to this party, if for no other reason than to lend a hand to the setup. Believe me, Brian (I'm also a VMPS owner and lover of his designs for over 20 yrs) is spot on with his concerns and recommendations. The Sp Tech and RSA Sason design philosophies are unique to their own speakers, and setup and room interaction is quite quite different. In my 3500 Cu ft music listening room the SP Tech (albeit Revelations, not Continuums) room interaction and optimum setup positioning is considerably different than that of the Sasons. Moreover, each love a different type of source/preamp/cable/amp combo to reach synergy. I'm telling you nothing new here, but reinforcing the fact that "shootout" is the worst expectation to set; speaker party or mini-rave is much more fair. Likely each pair of speakers will sound suboptimal anyway, being that any public venue is not a well-treated living room, but what the heck. Sooo....I'd love to be there, and will just-so-happen-to plan a business trip to that area of my Central Region (it's good to be king) should you guys have dates and venue laid out soon.

TRADERXFAN · « **Reply #31 on:** 27 Jan 2008, 01:43 am »

To help contribute -I have quite a few acoustic panels that I could bring to help treat the room, once its selected. The number would depend on what I can fit in my SUV. Most are 4" and a few are 6" thick, 2'x4' 8# mineral wool panels in ready acoustic bags. They are unfaced so will absorb all frequencies.

I also could offer a location, but I think it may be too far out. I currently have a 2500 sq ft. vacant house in Sugar Grove IL (its up for sale). Its about 40 miles due west of Chicago, but a straight shot on I-88. We have several different sized rooms and could pick the one that makes the most sense. The biggest issue to my mind would be putting in some seating for the event.

I could bring a ps-audio c-100 and onix cd-5 with anti-cable interconnects and speaker wire and SVS 20-39pci sub.

Depending on how soon this is, and when my friend Mr. Daygloworange gets the flatpack done, I could also have my GR-research ob-7's built and show those as well.

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #32 on:** 27 Jan 2008, 01:47 am »

It's nice Duke is here to point out the obvious limitations of small, low-sensitivity high end speakers in a large venue. I would add that the power available from most "hifi" amps would be inadequate to provide reasonable sound pressure levels to a fair-sized audience, with frequent clipping and high distortion adding to the speakers' distress.

If I were to set up such a comparison in a large venue I would place both listeners and equipment on stage, with the audience as close to the speakers as possible, the speakers' backs facing outwards into the auditorium which would then act as absorption. The lack of room gain would still mean thin bass (and little to no first octave), with the brighter and beamier speaker predominating. I don't think subtle differences such as those between cables or digital sources would be very apparent under these conditions, if at all.

In other words, many matters of concern to audiophiles would go by the board, negating the very reason for the comparison in the first place.

B Cheney
President VMPS Ribbon
www.vmpsaudio.com

spence · « **Reply #33 on:** 27 Jan 2008, 02:33 am »

Double Ugly,
I'm in West Virginia.

Geardaddy · « **Reply #34 on:** 27 Jan 2008, 02:37 am »

Duke and Brian raise some very good points. I had some concerns initially about trying to demo in particular the ID and RSA products in a large space like that and felt on an intuitive level that SP Tech would have some advantage. Another option in terms of venue would be to use a dedicated listening room. We have one potential option like that in the Chicago area that their audio society is checking into. It apparently measures around 22X35. We would obviously have less capacity but could listen in shifts. We'll see. Using your house west of Chicago is also an option (thank you very much for the offer!) Thanks again for all the sage input and enthusiasm. It should be a hoot.

MaxCast · « **Reply #35 on:** 27 Jan 2008, 03:48 am »

Too bad you couldn't get two rooms the same size in the same location and set them up in their own room. The only thing that comes to mind are conference rooms at a hotel. There was a real small fest at a hotel the Chicago guys and Dave Ellis (I think) put on. The did have the use of a decent sized conference room that you could get say 30 people in at a time. They also had 3-4 other hotel rooms displaying equipment as well.

Geardaddy · « **Reply #36 on:** 27 Jan 2008, 04:02 am »

Rich Sacks (who is the current president of the Chicago Audio society I believe) mentioned the hotel show with Dave Ellis and Jim Salk. We have discussed that option as well. It is a potentially good format and more pragmatic in terms of setup logisitics. I think some of the final decision will be based on the ratio between final particpant numbers and $ (venue rental)....

MaxCast · « **Reply #37 on:** 27 Jan 2008, 04:18 am »

yep, location, location, location. Especially for you WI and IL guys. You probably want somewhere in between. Although, Chicago would be good for SPTech and Ridge Street. Hell, Steve at SAS may provide a couple new preamps for the day. aa
This is funny, I am hoping you guys pick a place in Chicago so I can attend yet I live only 45 minuets from both SP Tech and Ridge Street.

...and have never been to either.

alotaklipsch · « **Reply #38 on:** 27 Jan 2008, 06:24 am »

IF it's gonna be in Chitown, I can bring NWO 3.0GO, thus, no need for pre-amp, accepts both balanced, and rca. Synergistic Apex Tesla is also available

No shootout, just musical fun with fellow audioPHOOL's

Geardaddy · « **Reply #39 on:** 27 Jan 2008, 02:56 pm »

As far as ancillary equipment (amp, pre, etc) is concerned, I believe RSA and ID wanted to bring their own equipment and that could represent round I. Round II could be done via a universal system decided upon by all, and round III would simply involve flopping other gear in and out to hear what we hear. All three speakers are ultra revealing, so that would be fun and informative. Time and logistics will determine a lot of this. I don't want it to get too crazy and distract and confound the listeners, but being a slightly obsessive compulsive and curious guy, it will be hard to resist. Again, I think this is going to be a gas...I am glad we are getting some traction. The actual event should be towards the end of April or beginning of May. Cheers...