[gus6464]

Well it's kind of a long story but here goes. It all started one day when my wife's dad asked her if she wanted his old records from 20+ years ago. I said "hell yeah" so he went off to storage and gave us all of his records as well as his old Technics SL-B2 TT. Now the TT was in very bad shape and it was going to cost me over $100 to get it working and was about to pull the trigger when I found an ad on craigslist of some Epos ELS-3 speakers and Rega Planar 2 TT w/ RB250 arm. Well I paid $450 for both the TT, speakers and also matching stands which by themselves are $200. The TT was in absolute pristine condition and looks brand new as well as the speakers. It was an older man who loved his gear but was moving so had to sell all of it. For right now I am using a 6 year old Sony 5.1 receiver with a Bellari vp129 phono preamp. The cart on the TT is an old AT series V that sounds good, although output is pretty low. My wife said I could upgrade little by little so in 6 months I am planning on spending around $1200 on a nice tube preamp and SS amp. I have been looking at the Ming Da MC 7R tube preamp paired with a high current amp like a Rotel RB1070. Then a year after that splurging on some better speakers (~$2000) and I will be set which what I think would be a great system. (not audiophile I guess but still decent)

I plan on keeping the TT for a very long time as it is in great shape and I think I can get a lot more out of it with a nicer cartridge and possibly upgrade the arm to an RB300 if I can find a good deal on a used one. So now I am in search of a good cartridge that I will have for a long time and I was looking at the Grado Gold ($180). Is there another cartridge out there you guys would recommend at this price range that would work better with my TT and possibly an RB300 arm? Keep in mind this is my first entry into vinyl so I really know nothing about cartridges and how they sound. I keep hearing that Grado's tend to have a warmer sound which I am guessing I would like as I can't stand bright speakers. I like clear, smooth detailed midrange and non-bright sound.

BTW this is a picture of the TT so if you guys could identify the cartridge and tell me if the TT actually has an RB250 arm that way it would be great. I compared the pictures on the Rega site and it looks like it to me but you never know. Thanks

[denjo]

Looks like a RB300 arm to me, the same one I have! 

I used a Denon 103R cart to good effect but when I sold my preamp, I had to go for a higher gain cart and settled for the Dynavector 20XH. That took the music to a higher level!

[gus6464]

Wow really? Well the guy who sold it to me did say that he used to have 2 P3's but didn't say if he had swapped or anything. Is there somewhere I can look on the arm or under it to verify that it's an RB300?

[denjo]

gus6464

Chatted with a friend of mine. He is a Rega tonearm expert. He tells me that the Rega 300 tonearm has calibrations, which you should find on the right-hand side of the tonearm. If it does not have those calibrations for fine tuning of the arm, then its likely to be a RB250. I cannot tell from your photos except to say that it sure looks very much like a RB300 from the angle of your shots.

He went on to say that sonically the two tonearms sound almost indistinguishable!

Best Regards
Dennis

[TheChairGuy]

It's an RB250 - pretty sure at least.  The plastic end stub is the giveaway....the RB300 has a steel end stub.

Keep the RB250...it's actually a better arm once (slightly) modded.  The biggest change would be the end stub and counterweight.  Lotsa' folks sell upgrades to it - Kerry Audio, Michell, Origin Live - they all work to greater or lesser degrees (better bass, higher resolution, etc) at under $200.00.

I don't find my Grado to sound special in my Rega 250 arm (with upgrades)...Grado's really need fluid damped arms to sound right (or damping the cartridge body, coils and tonearm itself to 'mimic' some the damping effects of fluid damping)

Not many cartridges sound too bright in the Rega arms....they tend to sound 'dark' in general.  It's slightly on the light side, so some moving coils might sound a bit etched. Someone explained to me that it is likely the black powder coat finish giving it a dark tonality...but I don't know (folks do remove the powder coat finish sometimes, but I have not)

Lotsa' ways to go to upgrade your cartridge right now...others will chime in on what has worked for them 

Welcome Gus - or welcome back to vinyl    John

[doug s.]

that is definitely an rb250, not an rb300.  the 300 has mounting support on one side, only, not two sides.  (and calibration marks, as prewiously mentioned.)  but do not fret, instead of "upgrading" to an rb300, yust get your arm upgraded by origin-live.  an o-l modded rb250 will outperform even an o-l modded rb900, let alone an rb300.  and, this is per o-l.  the reason being that, after upgrades, the mounting support on both sides of the arm is superior than a single-sided support, even tho the bearings aren't quite as good...

re: reasonably priced cartridges, i am partial to ortofons.  i'd look for something like the mc3 or better.  ortofon makes excellent hi-output mc's and mm cartridges.  if you're careful, you could go up a model or three, if you buy used, but you should really trust the seller, if buying a used fono cartridge.  also, i would recommend getting a "fine-line" type stylus or better; i would stay away from any elliptical or spherical shaped styli...  much better tracking & less record wear w/the new stylus types.

now, when you're ready to upgrade the turntable itself, for ~$150-$300 or so (depending on the ebay feeding frenzy at the time, & actual condition of the turntable), you should investigate the early unsuspended empire's.  these are competitive, imo, w/any modern deck at multiple times the cost, & a big upgrade over the rega's...  and, it's an easy retrofit to install a rega tonearm on an unsuspended empire.

doug s.

[Wayner]

Audio Technica AT440MLa. 

[SET Man]

Hey!
   
    Yup, that is RB250 a standard arm for Planar 2 Nice arm too. Some other companies are using it on their TT. I think JA Michell chose this over the RB300 and other for their line of modded RB250 for their TTs. So, instead of upgrading to RB300 arm you might want to check out mods for the RB250.

    I used to have Planar 2... actually I still do, well at least most of it 

   As for cart. Grado are nice but it could hum with the Planar 2. I know this since I used to have Grado cart on my back than.

   Currently I'm using Benz Micro "ACE" High Output version on my RB250 with 2mm shim and I really like the sound. So, much so that I'm pretty much just sit and listening to music and think less about the TT/Cart and the system overall itself now. Yes, I think this is more than your budget but I think you should put it on your list if you could spend a bit more.

   Anyway, the other upgrade that I have been looking at for my RB250 will be the JA Michell's TecnoWeight. Well, when I have money of course. 

Take care,
Buddy

   

   

[Airborn]

Don't know how it mates with the RB250 tonearm, but for MM the AT 440MLa is hard to beat, imo and can still be had for under $100, I think.  I hope Wayner doesn't come after me for pimping on his turf.

[ricmon]

If you want to check out the mc variety check this one out

Benz Micro MC20E2 Low Output Moving Coil Cartridge

It list for 199.00.  19 buck above your budget.

[gus6464]

Thanks guys for all of the suggestions. I didn't know that you could do all these things to a TT to make it better. I think my first order of business will be to get a new cartridge and after that get a new counter weight for it. There is a local dealer in my city (San Antonio, TX) that carries the Michell TechnoWeight upgrade. He also has the Incognito rewiring kit as well. Is that rewiring upgrade worth it?

Ohh and ricmon, he also carries that Benz Micro cartridge you recommended for $169 as well in low and high output versions. What is the difference between the two?

[ricmon]

Ohh and ricmon, he also carries that Benz Micro cartridge you recommended for $169 as well in low and high output versions. What is the difference between the two?

This really a question for thechiarguy.  In short it's gain.  If you phone pre does not have separate MM MC inputs you a will need the high output model. 

[gus6464]

Ohh and ricmon, he also carries that Benz Micro cartridge you recommended for $169 as well in low and high output versions. What is the difference between the two?

This really a question for thechiarguy.  In short it's gain.  If you phone pre does not have separate MM MC inputs you a will need the high output model. 

It's a Rolls Bellari vp129 tube phono preamp which I think has both.

http://www.rolls.com/new/vp129.html

[TheChairGuy]

Thanks guys for all of the suggestions. I didn't know that you could do all these things to a TT to make it better. I think my first order of business will be to get a new cartridge and after that get a new counter weight for it. There is a local dealer in my city (San Antonio, TX) that carries the Michell TechnoWeight upgrade. He also has the Incognito rewiring kit as well. Is that rewiring upgrade worth it?

Ohh and ricmon, he also carries that Benz Micro cartridge you recommended for $169 as well in low and high output versions. What is the difference between the two?

Hey Gus,

My RB250 tonearm had a botched home-brew re-wire...so I cannot vouch for the difference between the standard wiring and Incognito.  I have only heard mine with the Incognito.

Most that have say the stock wiring isn't awful....it's the grounding scheme that is suspect in the standard RB250.  The Incognito changes out wiring to something generally thought to be higher quality - AND changes the grounding scheme and rca's to higher quality types.

The sum total of the Incognito re-wire is good......but most folks regard the Michell Technoweight and stub upgrade as essential and very dramatic (and it's cheaper then re-wire).

So, if you're pinching pennies, do the stub and counterweight first...then use your next 'allowance' to re-wire your arm.

That Rolls/Bellari preamp will only amplify hi-level gains...not low level ones. As well, it was originally a DJ phono preamp, so the gain is very low at only 30db (as most DJ cartridges have rather robust outputs of 5mv+).  I do not think it will be sufficient to amplify the (consider hi-output) 2.5mv signal of the Benz Micro MC20E2.

If your heart is set on the Bellari, you'll probably want something more robust output.

The much vaunted AT440MLa is 4mv.....probably high enough to drive things fully to your satisfaction.

Regards, John

[gus6464]

Thanks guys for all of the suggestions. I didn't know that you could do all these things to a TT to make it better. I think my first order of business will be to get a new cartridge and after that get a new counter weight for it. There is a local dealer in my city (San Antonio, TX) that carries the Michell TechnoWeight upgrade. He also has the Incognito rewiring kit as well. Is that rewiring upgrade worth it?

Ohh and ricmon, he also carries that Benz Micro cartridge you recommended for $169 as well in low and high output versions. What is the difference between the two?

Hey Gus,

My RB250 tonearm had a botched home-brew re-wire...so I cannot vouch for the difference between the standard wiring and Incognito.  I have only heard mine with the Incognito.

Most that have say the stock wiring isn't awful....it's the grounding scheme that is suspect in the standard RB250.  The Incognito changes out wiring to something generally thought to be higher quality - AND changes the grounding scheme and rca's to higher quality types.

The sum total of the Incognito re-wire is good......but most folks regard the Michell Technoweight and stub upgrade as essential and very dramatic (and it's cheaper then re-wire).

So, if you're pinching pennies, do the stub and counterweight first...then use your next 'allowance' to re-wire your arm.

That Rolls/Bellari preamp will only amplify hi-level gains...not low level ones. As well, it was originally a DJ phono preamp, so the gain is very low at only 30db (as most DJ cartridges have rather robust outputs of 5mv+).  I do not think it will be sufficient to amplify the (consider hi-output) 2.5mv signal of the Benz Micro MC20E2.

If your heart is set on the Bellari, you'll probably want something more robust output.

The much vaunted AT440MLa is 4mv.....probably high enough to drive things fully to your satisfaction.

Regards, John

Thanks for the info John. I am not dead set on the Bellari per say but I did order it and it's on the way. But I have a 30 day guarantee from the place I bought it so if it doesn't work out I can get something else. But if the AT440MLa is considered to be a better cart than the Benz I wouldn't mind anyway. Since the Michell Technoweight is the same price as a new cart which would you say would give me a bigger increase in performance? I can upgrade either right now and would then have to wait around a month to do the next upgrade.

[TheChairGuy]

You can do the Michell stub/counterweight and AT440MLa for about $300.00...that's the way to go for a good return on your sonic investment.  Add the Bellari in and you're at about $550 to get back or begin your vinyl bliss 

If you can afford all that, you're on your way (maybe your local dealer is an AT dealer even? - so he can set it all up for you like the pro he is).

Save the re-wire for another $300.00 burning in your pocket later...

John

[Rocket]

Hi,

I recently installed a benz micro mc20e2 (high output) and I am very happy with the results.  I bought it locally in oz and paid $260au.  I think the cheapest price I read was about $169us.

Previously I used a denon dl103 low output and was pretty happy with it.  In comparison these cartridges are similiar in sound quality, both pretty good imo.  The advantage of using a high output mc is that you do not need to use a stepup transformer which is an additional cost.

Here is a link to a product that I have read makes a big improvement to the rega 2.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SRM-TECH-SILENT-BASE-FOR-REGA-NAD-GOLDRING-DECKS_W0QQitemZ230215414341QQihZ013QQcategoryZ48648QQcmdZViewItem

My first turntable was a rega 2 and I wish I had never sold it.

Regards

Rod

[gus6464]

Well I just found out that the Bellari is a MM preamp only. So as of right now it looks like it's going back. The dealer that sells the Benz and Michell weight upgrade sells some pretty expensive preamps and cheapest one other than the Bellari is the Parasound Zphono which is both MM and MC. I might just have to go with that but he might cut me a deal on the whole thing.

[Listens2tubes]

I love the Cardas rewire and agree the stainless steel stub and dropped weight are essential. Add to this Peter Riggle's VTAF and you'll be set for some time to come, I know I am. Meanwhile on the budget cartridge I recommend the Shure M97XE as a very excellent $89.00 "best-buy". A good friend has a VPI Scout with the RS Labs RS-A1 tonearm and runs the Shure M97XE. He has a very revealing system and it always amazes me how well that giant-killer M97 sings! Enjoy!

[TheChairGuy]

Well I just found out that the Bellari is a MM preamp only. So as of right now it looks like it's going back. The dealer that sells the Benz and Michell weight upgrade sells some pretty expensive preamps and cheapest one other than the Bellari is the Parasound Zphono which is both MM and MC. I might just have to go with that but he might cut me a deal on the whole thing.

Gus, the Benz MC20e hi-output WILL work with the Bellari...but may be a little shy of gain to make it sing.  A hi-output Moving Coil cartridge can be used on MM-only phono stages.  I think the Benz may not have quite enough output to run into the relatively low gain Bellari.

The Parasound Zphono may or may not be better....the MM section will play all moving magnet (MM) designs and hi-ouput moving coil (MC) designs as it has about 40db gain.

It adds an MC section for lower output moving coils (if you want to play around), but is likely too noisy for you to really employ any.  The Parasound is cheaper I think...no bad thing that is 

John