The Technics SL-1200 Mk. II....Bastardization

Rocket · « **Reply #20 on:** 15 Dec 2007, 11:32 pm »

Hi TCG,

Just read the tonearm modification review that you provided and it looks very interesting. I'll be totally honest that I have been a little skeptical about the technics sl1200 turntable, mainly, because of the tonearm that was used.

I'll keep an eye out for one of ebay. They are pretty pricey in Australia and I doubt that I can purchase one for under $600au.

My cartridge review will be very basic and will either say its good or its bad.

Btw anyone had any experience in using soundsmith to retip your cartridges i.e. does one of their retips improve on the original sound. I have a denon dl103 that needs to be retipped. I like the sound of the original.

http://www.sound-smith.com/retip/

Regards

Rod

lcrim · « **Reply #21 on:** 15 Dec 2007, 11:56 pm »

Rod:
There was a recent thread regarding Soundsmith.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=47457.0
It was pointed out that removing the plastic case from the 103 series (http://www.thomas-schick.com/Denon103.htm) and replacing it with a wood body from a gentleman w/ the handle Uwe over on the Asylum (http://www.oswaldsmillaudio.com/images/media/Bodies.pdf), works a damping magic on this line of carts.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #22 on:** 16 Dec 2007, 06:25 am »

2 hours later - it's done

I can assure you all...if I did it, you almost certainly can. The pics online is all that was needed....that and a little patience. Not a lot, fortunately

I could probably do the next one in 45-60 minutes armed with a cordless screwdriver (30 or so screws on and 30 screws off was time-consuming). But the most time consuming thing was widening the hole underneath the deck so one can reach the tonearm holding nut...it took time to carve the hard rubber away with a Stanley blade.

No soldering, no nothing except a bit of time. The Origin Live armboard is actually a slick two piece affair (like Origin Live tables now that I study them). The top and bottom are slightly decoupled by several metal washers....the 'bottom' board is actually where the arm mounts. The armboard is metal of some kind (it's heavy like steel, but I've not tested to be sure of that).

This Technics deck is absolutely stellar when it comes to feedback rejection......this is the first table I have ever owned where rapping my knuckles anywhere (except the arm and bottom stanchion of the armboard) shows up as nothing at all fed back into the system. It's mounted on 4 brass toes pointed downward into a 3.5" maple block. That in itself speaks volumes about the attention that Technics has paid to this baby over the decades.

It is rock solid and gives nothing up in feedback rejection to any table out there that I've ever used. It has clearly had a slightly abused existence and still plays on like a trooper.

How's it sound? - why, pretty good

I really think I'm running up against my limit of audible differences now with vinyl....to get much higher is likely to cost a great deal more. My room is imperfect, my electronics are good, my speakers are fine and vinyl is an imperfect medium(tho a notch above the rest), AND I'm fairly frugal - so I'm not so inclined to leap much further into the fray. I might eat those words someday...but that's how I feel today. Perhaps this deck would benefit from a damping trough, KAB's outboard motor and strobe disabler, however.

The total cost with the Ortofon X5-MC is about $900.00 ($150 Technics, $500 Regare-wired, $75 armboard)...not chump change, but in the realm of sanity in today's world. The additional KAB mods would be another $300.00. Is it the worlds best deck for $900...don't know? Would it be the world's best $1200.00 deck with the KAB mods...don't know again

Here's a pic of the bastard....do ya'll like my fancy center clamp? - it works quite well, actually....

The beaten old Technics arm in the trash....

Rocket · « **Reply #23 on:** 16 Dec 2007, 10:26 am »

Hi TCG,

How does it compare to your old vpi turntable? The modification looks pretty good.

Regards

Rod

Wayner · « **Reply #24 on:** 16 Dec 2007, 01:24 pm »

John,

How did your VTA turn out with the new arm/deck plate? It looks parallel, but I was just wondering.

Wayner

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #25 on:** 16 Dec 2007, 04:12 pm »

Rocket/Wayner, et al:

The modification was surprisingly easy......and there is a cut-out on the bottom of the Technics (which Origin Live instructs you to enlarge to gain access to the tonearm nut underneath conveniently). I have an Expressimo VTA adjuster sleeve....I sheepishly admit

that despite trying many, many times I cannot figure how to use it to set VTA. So, I have 3 shims under the arm that adjust the VTA

To be frank, VTA is one of the lower echelon tweeks in improving sound for me. On belt drive decks, especially spring loaded ones, having the deck absolutely level is far more important of an advance on sound quality than perfect VTA. Azimuth, especially with exaggerated elliptical tips, is moe important that VTA. Proper tracking force, stylus overhang (within reason - 1 mm either way seems not too significant, either), the type of cartridge and feedback rejection are all more important than VTA to me. So, I don't sweat it...if it looks level I'm happy - I raise it a little above and a little below that plane to hear if it sounds any different...and it generally doesn't.

On that point, Roy Gandy of Rega and I seem to agree...perfect VTA is important, but it's far down the list of potential problems to tackle in vinyl.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #26 on:** 16 Dec 2007, 04:14 pm »

I didn't have it all together until last night so I did not play loudly enough to know fully how it sounds relative to the VPI (with the same tonearm and cartridge so it's a fairly even comparison). Also, one or more tubes in my preferred, outstandingly clear and wonderfully toned 6V6 monoblocks is on it's last legs. So, I had to change to my (larger) 50 watt Dukane monoblocks...and they don't sound as clear and soulful as the wee 6V6's. They play louder with greater reserve, but not as pleasantly.

I played the VPI system exclusively with the 6V6 mono's....so it sounded a bit better in comparison to the bastard 1200 last night by memory. The Dukies sound a bit more impressive played louder (where the Bell 6V6's sound strained at only 10 watts)...so I'll compare later today.

Fact is, I really think I'm butting up against my limits of audibility (and financial sanity) and that of the innate imperfections of vinyl. Those include low levels of stereo separation, 60db range, clicks and pops on playback, damaged groove walls, etc. I don't doubt some $10K VPI spread with a 12" arm might get me to another plateau of resolution, lower levels of noise of various kinds and enjoyment....but unless I sell a LOT more carts I don't see that happening in my future. At some point you have to decide if your chasing an elusive goal of perfection

Unfortunately I could fully compare the stock armed Technics versus the bastardized Rega one...but the few minutes I heard it before the skipping drove me insane I was impressed (with an ADC TRX-1 at the helm). I would think a stock Technics with all the KAB tweeks (including re-wiring), an Isoplatmat and an Audio-Technica AT440MLa would take you to world class levels of vinyl front end playback for under-$1500.00. It seems to be a worthwhile arm that just needs a little shove forward in the form of the re-wire and damping trough.

I already owned the Rega 250 so I went this route.....it probably got me to the same place, overall, in the end. I'm pleased and thankful for many things....a good vinyl front end among the best 98% out there at an affordable price is just icing on the cake

so NOW I definitely made it back on lcrim's XMas list aa

bacobits1 · « **Reply #27 on:** 16 Dec 2007, 07:04 pm »

Again, you guys are driving me nuts.

I had the Expressimo VTA adjuster sleeve on a RB300 and it's very easy to use. Place on the arm post first, flange area up since that is what the arm base will rest on the arm board. Set up the arm level before tightening any lower nut. Start listening when you get the height where you want it tighten the lower nut. I think VTA is very important in bringing out the best in any cartridge. Things just snap into focus.
Love the table it looks great, enjoy.

You may have a problem tightening the arm if the arm board is thinner than the height of the Expressimo VTA adjuster sleeve. It is really made for Rega plinths (7/8"?). If that is the case you may have to washer the arm post underneath to tighten the nut or cut the sleeve. Mitchell's, Origin Live's works a bit different. You may not have room at all for the Pete Riggle set up. Nice to have "VTA on the fly".

Den

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #28 on:** 16 Dec 2007, 07:32 pm »

Quote from: bacobits1 on 16 Dec 2007, 07:04 pm

Again, you guys are driving me nuts.

I had the Expressimo VTA adjuster sleeve on a RB300 and it's very easy to use. Place on the arm post first, flange area up since that is what the arm base will rest on the arm board. Set up the arm level before tightening any lower nut. Start listening when you get the height where you want it tighten the lower nut. I think VTA is very important in bringing out the best in any cartridge. Things just snap into focus.
Love the table it looks great, enjoy.

You may have a problem tightening the arm if the arm board is thinner than the height of the Expressimo VTA adjuster sleeve. It is really made for Rega plinths (7/8"?). If that is the case you may have to washer the arm post underneath to tighten the nut or cut the sleeve. Mitchell's, Origin Live's works a bit different. You may not have room at all for the Pete Riggle set up. Nice to have "VTA on the fly".

Den

Thanks bacobits/Den...I'll try the Expressimo VTA again. I tried it every which way and simply couldn't get it - very frustrating. My (largely undiagnosed) ADD not at all helping matters figuring it out

The Origin Live armboard seems to have enough room to accommodate the VTA sleeve - I'll try it again for sure.

I have the Pete Riggle VTAF on the VPI armboard...with a one-off special he did for the previously owner on an Audioquest PT-6 (Linn cut-out on those). I have a Revelation Audio Labs phono cable coming to pare with it....the Cardas junction box simply wasn't grounded as well as I'd like (too many junctions perhaps?) so I hope the re-evaluate the VPI and the AQ/VTAF when the new (fully burned in prior to shipment) cable arrives

I am liking the SL1200 more as the day wears on....I have a feeling it was in storage a long time somewhere as when I opened it up there was some dust inside and even a teeny, dead bug (never know what you'll find in old gear

) It made some nasty sounds the first few revolutions......and the platter is still stuck on the shaft (tried Liquid Wrench already....have to get more creative to take it off now). Also, after spraying all the switches with Caig De-Oxit and ProGold, they all move nicer now...and the glitchy feeling switching between 33 and 45 seems to have abated.

Such is what you get when you buy older, vintage gear...you inherit vintage problems. Only because the SL-1200 is built like no other turntable I am familiar with these issues are largely overcome by simple means available to most of us. If it were any deck but a 1200 - it never would have survived the 3000 mile journey as it was

God....is it ever a quiet system now. The grounding scheme on the Rega/Incognito is superb, the Technics is commendably free of feedback and has low levels of rumble and wow & flutter, the armboard is slightly de-coupled to channel noise away from the outputs, and I've got the low impedance (moving coils strength is low impedance = less coil noise) Ortofon X5-MC on it....it is so dang quiet it's quite a thrill ride. Dynamics are a bit muted - and the cartridge is largely the cause - but MINGA! is it ever quiet.

John

ixlr8 · « **Reply #29 on:** 16 Dec 2007, 09:01 pm »

You guys are killing me!!
I have been holding off getting the 1200 MKII, waiting to see how poor I was going to be after the holidays, and for Marco's review. But now that even TCG is reporting good things about this TT... I might just have to break out the CC and give Kevin a call.

I still haven't sorted out if I want to get the KAB/Ortofon Pro S30 and have Kevin set it up... or go for the AT-440MLa that most folks here are raving about. I can't do both if I am also going to get a good record cleaner.... something better than the old tee shirt I used last time I cleaned a record.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #30 on:** 16 Dec 2007, 09:50 pm »

Get the AT440MLa....put the money saved towards a record cleaning machine....KAB's EV-1 is as good as most if you already have a reasonably good suction home vacuum about. If you don't have one there is nearly always decent, cheap canister (better suction than uprights) vacuums at the Thrift store or on ebay.

The Eureka Mighty Mite and Hoover Porta-Power's are readily found on ebay cheaply, are small (for storage) and have good suction for their size

Don't be in any rush to blow your cash......it doesn't seem likely that Technics is gonna' discontinue this Rock of Gibraltar anytime soon

John

ohenry · « **Reply #31 on:** 16 Dec 2007, 10:18 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 16 Dec 2007, 09:50 pm

Get the AT440MLa....put the money saved towards a record cleaning machine...

I second the AT440. I heard one on Friday for the first time and I was very impressed with that cart. I see why folks have been heaping praise its way. It effortlessly tracked everything we threw at it, was quiet, and had a smooth, extended frequency response... all for ~$100! FYI, it was mounted on a fancy Grado arm, not sure about the model No.

GregC · « **Reply #32 on:** 17 Dec 2007, 04:13 am »

John,

I agree with you regarding how a level table affects the sound, but so does the VTA (particularly with a Rega arm). I found the ideal position for my ears is with the arm tilted very sightly down towards the back. Of course your cartridge selection and the geometry of the stylus may affect your final decision on the VTA.

With vinyl, the smallest of changes in your setup can affect the sound. For example, I found that when I adjust the tracking force from 1.83 to 1.95 grams it made an audible difference. I can get a table sounding good in about one hour and then the fine tuning may take me another two hours to get it just right.

For VTA I think you use shims for a stock Rega arm, but I suggest an Origin Live VTA Adjuster to make it easy to set and adjust the VTA. I have used the OL VTA Adjuster for years now and swear by it.

Greg

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #33 on:** 17 Dec 2007, 04:52 am »

Hiya' Greg,

I kinda' under-emphasized the VTA thingee

I didn't mean that it wasn't at ALL important, only that it's down a list of things to get right with vinyl before I get to it. When I have, the difference has been fairly small, overall, next to other matters (actual cartridge choice, proper loading, leveling the table for belt drive tables, excellent lubricant on main bearings for belt table, excellent lubricant for the tonearm bearings if they can be reached, good/excellent isolation, correct tracking force, reasonably close overhang, correct azimuth especially for exaggerated ellipticals/line/Gyger/vdH styli, phono pre choice all have been higher up on the priority list).

I find it remarkable that such a fussy mode of audio entertainment still exists in a plug n' play world now......we can't just all be Luddites kicking and dragging ourselves into the vast electronic future. When I see younger guys that didn't grow up with vinyl embracing the hobby - it really is a hoot! It has merit as a music source for reasons other than convenience - which means it has great merit as a music source in itself

Anyhow, I just choose to cut some corners, when I can, on small matters to tackle the bigger ones....VTA, for me, has been a 2nd tier thing in the past. Hey, one day when I slow down and actually become satisfied with my analog front end (hopefully

) than I can get to the 2nd tier stuff.

btw, what little difference (benefit) is heard is usually when I orient it exactly as you prefer...just slightly down in the back of the arm realtive to the front. So, that's where I set it and forget it normally.

John

ixlr8 · « **Reply #34 on:** 17 Dec 2007, 11:52 am »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 16 Dec 2007, 09:50 pm

Get the AT440MLa....put the money saved towards a record cleaning machine....

So, where is the best place to get this cartridge and what do I need to get to set it up properly? Remember, I am a newbie that has not listened to vinyl in 25 years.

Quote from: TheChairguy

Don't be in any rush to blow your cash......it doesn't seem likely that Technics is gonna' discontinue this Rock of Gibraltar anytime soon

I'm not in a rush to blow my cash.. just want to be able to listen to all the interesting records my girlfriend just moved in with.

She didn't bring her old Kenwood TT and presently we have no TT at all and several hundred records sitting in boxes!

ohenry · « **Reply #35 on:** 17 Dec 2007, 12:08 pm »

Here's a thread mentioning some inexpensive places to shop for the AT440Mla:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=45761.0

Have a good time.

PS-It looks like LP Gear is the only one with the<$100 price now. (Amazon $129 and the Needle Doc is $199

)

Wayner · « **Reply #36 on:** 17 Dec 2007, 12:33 pm »

J and R music. It's now $129.

Wayner

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #37 on:** 17 Dec 2007, 07:21 pm »

The Technics seems totally impervious to footfalls...but when I turned up the juice way up today and wrapped on the side and top, there actually was some feedback entering back into the sonic chain. No feedback is the goal....something many belt drivers get 98% right....a nod to their superior mostly de-coupled drive system.

So maybe the Technics needs a couple lbs of Plast-i-Clay after all

I have to swap out cartridges.....it doesn't at all sound dynamic /ballsy / interesting with the Ortofon X5-MC at the helm. Conversely, the same tonearm and cartridge (different armboard, of course, if that matters

) sounded excellent in the VPI...big, phat and bold...like tubes sound. What a difference...only the deck (and drive system, of course) was the difference.

So for all those that automatically chalk up difference in cartridge performance to tonearm alone...it seems to be more than that to the equation.

Dratz!

John

low.pfile · « **Reply #38 on:** 17 Dec 2007, 07:49 pm »

John,

Get yourself some bongos and stop drumming on the TT !!

I found the same as you: footsteps do not have any sonic impact though contact with the 1200/1210 chassis does have sonic feedback. For reference: My 1210 is currently placed on a 3+" cutting board and resting on seagrass (sisal-like) carpet on hardwood floor....with Herbies way ex mat and SDS isoplatmat.

ed

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #39 on:** 17 Dec 2007, 08:39 pm »

Quote from: low.pfile on 17 Dec 2007, 07:49 pm

John,

Get yourself some bongos and stop drumming on the TT !!

I found the same as you: footsteps do not have any sonic impact though contact with the 1200/1210 chassis does have sonic feedback. For reference: My 1210 is currently placed on a 3+" cutting board and resting on seagrass (sisal-like) carpet on hardwood floor....with Herbies way ex mat and SDS isoplatmat.

ed

Ed,

Very similar isolation set-up here...I think I'm gonna' try to see where Plast-i-Clay could be wedged in...making the top plinth as inert as possible is a big step forward in sound.

Bongo's would require yet another investment

this one is already paid for in full.

Ha / John