[JP78]

mr. frank (or whomever else will reply),

i read this following review of the new 90K tenor monoblocks:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/tenor/m350.html

i'm not techically inclined enough to follow all this, but i'd love to hear thoughts on topology differences in philosophy for mosfet.  i think it's a little ridiculous of a review, but as a closet fan of ava, it would be nice to hear your thoughts.  maybe there's some hope for the average joe like me .

best,

jp

[avahifi]

My thoughts is that the pricing of the amplifier seems to be done by taking word count of review and figuring about $2.00 per word or thereabouts.  But you wouldn't be able to pay me enough to read it all carefully at that rate  Rather be reading the Republican party platform or similar if main character in the movie version could be played by Hannibal Lector.

Regards,

Frank

[bhobba]

My thoughts is that the pricing of the amplifier seems to be done by taking word count of review and figuring about $2.00 per word or thereabouts.  But you wouldn't be able to pay me enough to read it all carefully at that rate  Rather be reading the Republican party platform or similar if main character in the movie version could be played by Hannibal Lector.

Frank beat me to it.  I was going to post something similar.  I did read it, but I could find nothing of any actual technical merit to justify the price - a lot of words about the sleek heatsink design that would have zero audible benefits.  For that price you could outfit a Linkwitz Orion with all of Franks amps and still be ahead of the purchase of one amp - and I doubt any system using that amp would sound the difference in price better.  I chose the Orion's as they require the largest number of amps of any system I know.  It is not that I believe the Orion's are the 'best' speakers out there - although given their reviews and Siegfried's reputation they would be rather good.

Thanks
Bill

[Dan Kolton]

"...given their reviews and Siegfried's reputation they would be rather good." referring to the Linkwitz designed Orion. 

I have them, and they are.  They are better by far than anything I've ever heard except live, and they are awfully close to that using well recorded material.

[bhobba]

"...given their reviews and Siegfried's reputation they would be rather good." referring to the Linkwitz designed Orion. 
I have them, and they are.  They are better by far than anything I've ever heard except live, and they are awfully close to that using well recorded material.

To be fair, the guys it is aimed at, the Bill Gates and the like to whom the price means nothing, would probably reason - well at that price it must at least be good - which it probably is.  I was really into wine at one time.  As one reviewer said about a rather expensive wine (Grange Hermitage) - every time he tastes it it makes the earth move - trouble is at that price you want it to rock and roll.  He wasn't a big fan of Grange, but every time he tasted it blind, purely on its merit, he gave it top marks.  I suspect it is probably the same with this amp - a top amp, but like grange certainly not worth the money.  But if you are in the lucky position of money not meaning much to you, then you would buy nothing but grange, since you know it will make the earth move - other wines you may not be so sure of.

Thanks
Bill

[avahifi]

I am just curious how one of these megabuck amps or preamps would perform compared to good rationally priced stuff in a double blind test.

I know I had a Krell preamp in here a while back and its sound, to me, was essentially a clone of the old Hafler DH-101 preamp (available as a $100 or thereabouts kit).

Then there was the guy who brough about 300 pounds of Threshold stuff out here to AB with our equipment, bought ours on the spot, left the Threshold amp and preamp here to pick up later, and came back for them three years later.

Big prices don't impress me.  1 percent tolerance metal film resistors are 6 cents each in production quantities.  If the unit need 200 of them, that would be a $12 parts cost.

Bullshit abounds in huge amounts.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[martyo]

I wish Frank would let us know what he really thinks.   

Maybe these next 2 comments are somewhat off topic.
At RMAF I was in a room with 8-1/2' tall linesource's; 40 drivers, cabinets, etc. that cost $6000. Right between them was a 4' stereo rack, $4500! 

A while back on the Audio Central thread a guy made his first post here saying he really liked his music and asked for help in assembling his first stereo. I would say that is a simple question. If your budget is set for quite sometime, around 1/2 for speakers and.......If you're going to continue to put more money into the set, get as much speaker as you can, knowing that as you upgrade the electronics it will sound better and better. Of course matching the power requirements of the speakers to the electronics. And then your in business LISTENING to the music you love. Well, the poor guy. There were comments such as "I build my system around my interconnects", must be Class A, must be digital, must use balanced IC's, ( w/no question of the location of the components to each other), power conditioners, you start by building a new house...........There is just so much "majoring in the minors".

So JP, there is hope for regular guys, I consider myself regular, not normal, but regular.  By the end of this year I'll have spent $11k (yes, a HUGE chunk of change for us regular guys) and except for a $250 DVD/CD changer, have a completely new system. And what about that ratio I suggested to the new poster on Audio Central: 51% for the speakers, 49% amp, preamp, dac, cables, 2 pair NOS tubes, and a stock SqueezeBox (to come).

I was told before my trip to RMAF that I would REALLY appreciate how good and what a bargain Frank's gear is after attending. That was even simple for my non-audiophool wife to see and hear. The same with the Salk HT3's we purchased.

I think I'm a born-again cynic, at least when it comes to high-end audio. I believe Frank could spend a few hundred bucks on thick faceplates, definitely some "cool colored lights", maybe some spikey feet, and a completely different marketing approach, double or triple or quadruple his price and make more money. Suddenly his gear would be much better to many but unattainable by us regular guys.

Many are into all this for the gear, the pursuit, the rush of a new purchase, the latest hype, the specs, and of course the "mines bigger than yours", and there are plenty of entrepreneurs to meet their "needs".
There are also the Frank's, and Jim Salk's, and Danny Ritchie's, and Rick Craig's, that love the music so much they want others, like us regular guys, to be able to afford to do that with very musical gear.

This was a complete politically incorrect rant and it felt good. 

It is about the music, isn't it?

[mca]

Has anyone actually heard the Tenor amps?

Frank, have you ever thought about doing a monoblock version of your Fet Valve amps?

[bummrush]

As far as prices and all that,Thanks Frank for having the balls to speak up.

[JP78]

hey all,

i'm not wowed by the price tag or anything, but i was just really interested in how tenor implemented mosfet versus how mr van alstine does. 

i was hoping to steer things towards a more technical discussion as to how the tenor topology differs versus ava and the pros / cons of each implementation.  sorry if i came across otherwise; i've learned long, long ago that the price tag almost never justifies the product in audio, except in the cases of the few good guys (frank, big b, etc ).

[Lancelot]

I have a simple question . Does AVA believe that double blind testing is the ultimate ( and correct) way of determining differences between components ( see Frank's previous comments concerning Tenor and DBT).
You either support DBT at all price levels for all components or you don't. Have all AVA components been DBT against lower priced components ( remember that DBT adherents think that all well designed amps not driven into clipping sound virtually the same)and found to SOUND superior.
It's easy to make fun of astronomical prices ( and they can be absurd) but audiophiles, in general, pay more money for what they perceive to be better performance ( and I assume that is correct of AVA equipment) than could be attained by more modest equipment.
Those with the disposable income necessary might discern that the Tenors are worth the difference in price between them and AVA. Others determine that the higher price of AVA is worth it over a modest receiver. Huge difference in money but the same principle applies.

[Zheeeem]

hey all,

i'm not wowed by the price tag or anything, but i was just really interested in how tenor implemented mosfet versus how mr van alstine does. 

i was hoping to steer things towards a more technical discussion as to how the tenor topology differs versus ava and the pros / cons of each implementation.  sorry if i came across otherwise; i've learned long, long ago that the price tag almost never justifies the product in audio, except in the cases of the few good guys (frank, big b, etc ).

The problem is that it's hard to actually understand what a manufacturer's thoughts are by reading advertising.  And for the most part, reviews are simply an extension of advertising.  This may help explain why there are precious few technically literate reviewers.

That said, I can't say that I completely understand Frank's topographies.  The website doesn't much help, although he does a good job of laying out his thoughts in Audio Basics, the only audio magazine whose passing I actually lament.

I have come to think that design execution has a near-equal importance.  After all, there are really only so many ways you can amplify a signal.  But Frank's early tinkerings with the Dyna PAT-5, which involved matching parts values between L/R channels, is instructive.  There was truly a night-and-day difference between the "same" PAT-5 and FET-5.  And no need for fancy-brand magic parts, either.

I'm just not entirely sure how any amp topography/execution can be valued at $90,000.

[art]

If I am so allowed to voice them........

$1M in R &D to come to the conclusion that IGBTs make lousy output devices, and to cure that nasty 30 MHz birdie? You have to be kidding.

OK, kidding aside............using "standard" pricing practices in high-end, $90k/set = $45k/ea = $4500/ea in parts.

I don't see $4500 in parts in one. Even built in the small quantities we build stuff in.

The only thing I see that could turn out to be problematic, from a manufacturing standpoint is the heat sink. Judging by the apparent size of the heat sink, it can be a pain to draw an extrusion that wide, without some bowing in the process. They would then have to either mill a lot of metal off to get it flat, or make it from 2 identical halves. My bet is the latter, but maybe they don't have enough common sense to do it that way.

So, the costs get passed on. "Hey, if it costs us $$$$$$$ to build because we weren't smart enough to make it in a clever manner, then you get to pay for it. And therefore..........it has to be good!"

I could be wrong. But I if had $1M to blow on R & D, I would close the shop, divvy up the money, and tell everyone to go home and live off of the interest.

Pat

[bhobba]

Big prices don't impress me.  1 percent tolerance metal film resistors are 6 cents each in production quantities.  If the unit need 200 of them, that would be a $12 parts cost.

Nor should they.  At one time I thought of becoming an engineer (I trained as an applied mathematician but became a programmer - of recent times I have returned to being a mathematician).  I spoke to an actual engineer about it.  He told me just about any idiot with a smattering of knowledge can deign a good product given unlimited funds.  The real skill is designing an exceptional product on a budget.

Bullshit abounds in huge amounts.

It sure does.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

Does AVA believe that double blind testing is the ultimate ( and correct) way of determining differences between components ( see Frank's previous comments concerning Tenor and DBT).

I can't speak for Frank, but DBT's in audio is something I have spent more time than I care to admit looking into.  My conclusion is it is not the 'the ultimate ( and correct) way of determining differences between components'; but should be part of any balanced review. The fact it usually isn't, to me, is rather troubling.  They have a long history in other fields such as wine judging.  Wine tasting is worse than Hi Fi because you don't have the ultimate reference of the original performance to fall back on - it is completely subjective.  I have taken part in more blind tastings of wine than I care to admit.  My conclusion is that there is a strong correlation between wine quality and price - not 100% - but I would say about 80%.  But beyond a certain price point differences in quality are almost non existant eg Grange Hermitage is a very expensive (about $450.00 Australian when released, although you can often pick it up cheaper) but exceptional wine;  Michael Hermitage is also an exceptional wine, but is reasonably priced at about $50.00.  I have tasted the two blind many times, and can say in quality terms the difference is that Grange has greater consistency - it is released every year - Michael Hermitage is only released when the makers consider the fruit is good enough. My suspicion is the same applies to audio ie beyond a certain price point improvements are rather difficult, if not impossible, to come by.

Thanks
Bill

[Wayner]

Companies price products on perceived value. The cosmetic design of this amp is a lure for the customer who seeks status, perceived quality and it allows him to demonstrate the capability to purchase such an item to others. The world is filled with products such as this. It is not meant for the blue collar worker. People who buy stuff like this have cocktails at 7, eat caviar, and are on their 3rd wife/husband. Their stock portfolio would make most of us qualify for the food shelf. They own many homes, some on lakes in Minnesota that are visited maybe once a year. The lawn is always green and mowed in the summer. The driveway cleared of snow in the winter. The cost of this living is beyond reach of almost all. It is a dream.

Wayner

[gjs_cds]

hey all,

i'm not wowed by the price tag or anything, but i was just really interested in how tenor implemented mosfet versus how mr van alstine does. 

i was hoping to steer things towards a more technical discussion as to how the tenor topology differs versus ava and the pros / cons of each implementation.  sorry if i came across otherwise; i've learned long, long ago that the price tag almost never justifies the product in audio, except in the cases of the few good guys (frank, big b, etc ).

As a speech scientist, I can entirely understand where you're coming from.  I want to know the hows and whys.

I also got caught up in theoretical superiority.  A perfect example is me believing that upsampling into 24 bit 192 kbs *had* to be better than the standard CD.  It's simple physics, right?  Smaller bits mean better sound, right?  And since this *must* be true, Franks A-D must be inferior.  It's math and physics, after all. 

Until I read an article that tested the standard CD bitrate vs. an upsampled bitrate in a blind environment across different systems and different populations.  And after reading the article, the methodology is sound.  Not perfect, but the study's results seem to have good validity and reliability.

The result?  No difference at normal (i.e., sane) listening levels.  Frank was right all along.  He didn't buy into the dogma, or so it seems.  I had, without merit.

So why it's neat to tinker with the hows and whys... but when it comes to practical use, I totally expect that fancy technology, math and physics may not have as much impact on the end result as we think.

[dB Cooper]

Wayner sums it up beautifully. The essence of this product isn't the product itself, it's about having the money to pay for it, and maybe even more, having others know you do. Now if you'll excuse me, I think my assistant has finished detailing the Maserati.

[Brett Buck]

So why it's neat to tinker with the hows and whys... but when it comes to practical use, I totally expect that fancy technology, math and physics may not have as much impact on the end result as we think.

    Math and physics are the ONLY things that impact the end result!  What the guys selling $90,000 amps are doing is counting on someone not realizing that, or that someone makes the mistaken assumption that if it costs more than most houses did 10 years ago, it somehow contains superior technology. There is no significant advance in technology in this amplifier - dollars to donuts this is effectively identical to hundreds of other designs with variations in the parts values.

   There's absolutely no rational pragmatic reason that any audio amplifier needs to cost $90000, or could be quantitatively or qualitatively better enough (by a factor of ~100) to justify the cost on performance basis. If indeed (and I sincerely doubt it) it's any better AT ALL. I put the odds at 50/50 that it's actually tehncially inferior to many rationally priced products.

    If someone wants to buy it, for whatever reason, and can afford it, they ought to be mature enough to be able to admit they got for irrational, non-technical reasons.  Why so many people have to justify audio purchases on a techical or 'I just love music, therefore I need the best, and cost be damned' when they are really just getting because it has a cool-looking mahogany faceplate and costs a lot of money escapes me completely. No one owes the world an explanation, so why bother coming up with one?

     Brett

[modular747]

There is a non-refutable mathematic principle supporting them.  $90,000 sale price - $5,000 parts, labor, overhead (probably overly generous) = $85,000 profit.  Only have to sell a couple of these a year!