[warnerwh]

In the late eighties at the High End Show Stereophile did double blind tests with a pair of tube amps that cost 6k.  They compared these tube monoblocks to an Adcom GFA 555.

After numerous people couldn't tell any difference the folks at Stereophile made up a bunch of bull shit to rationalize the outcome.

They decided to do the test properly there shouldn't be so many people in the room among other things. They got a bunch of people together(many reviewers) for the dbt between the 6,000 dollar amps and the 800 dollar Adcom. It seems like they used B&W 801s.

It's been a while but one part of this second DBT I'll always remember. Harry Pearson did either the best of everyone or close to it. Asked how he could tell he said that the brushes on cymbals were his best clue.  So for another 5,200 dollars you get different sounding brushes on cymbals. Actually he may have brought up a couple of other points but the cymbal was the main one.

Which amp would you buy? As far as I'm concerned the AVA amp I have sounds as good as any amp made.  This includes the six figure amps too. For reliability I'd bet on the AVA for good reasons.

[gjs_cds]

So why it's neat to tinker with the hows and whys... but when it comes to practical use, I totally expect that fancy technology, math and physics may not have as much impact on the end result as we think.

    Math and physics are the ONLY things that impact the end result! 

     Brett

Point taken.  And I should have clarified.  I was talking about theoretical (tweako?) math and physics.  Perfect example being upsampling...  But yeah--your post is well stated.

[martyo]

And let's not forget that amps are dependent on what's upstream from them.  A good one should amplify the bad along with the good.  My FetValve amp didn't "sound" as good when I was using a different source and preamp.

That is so true. The day and night difference with my set after adding the T8 and 550 was nothing less than amazing. But 5 months later when I added the Ultra DAC, effectively changing the source, it "seemed" the magnitude of the change was even greater than w/the amp and preamp.

[bhobba]

It's been a while but one part of this second DBT I'll always remember. Harry Pearson did either the best of everyone or close to it. Asked how he could tell he said that the brushes on cymbals were his best clue.  So for another 5,200 dollars you get different sounding brushes on cymbals. Actually he may have brought up a couple of other points but the cymbal was the main one.

I suspect guys like Frank can do a bit better than that:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=32080.msg285582#msg285582

What I would like to see is a panell containing Frank and other guys that design and build amps by listenting to them take part is a double blind test with this $90K amp and their amps.  Now that would be interesting.

Thanks
Bill

[JP78]

man...what a can of worms!  all i was looking for was a conversation about "well our implementations differ by xxx, and are similar in the way we yyy"...i pretty much know the conclusion of the facts of implementation would lead to the obvious conclusion that the price isn't the product...well i got more than i bargained for! well. i hope one day we can compare the topological differences regardless of price....until then, enjoy the flambasting.

jp

[Zheeeem]

man...what a can of worms!  all i was looking for was a conversation about "well our implementations differ by xxx, and are similar in the way we yyy"...i pretty much know the conclusion of the facts of implementation would lead to the obvious conclusion that the price isn't the product...well i got more than i bargained for! well. i hope one day we can compare the topological differences regardless of price....until then, enjoy the flambasting.

jp

Well, I'm not quite sure what you really expected.  The review didn't actually say much intelligible about the topography.  So in effect you asked Frank to compare the topography of his amp against an unknown.  Not only that, but you seemed to expect him to actually read the review, which is not exactly spectacularly written despite its great length.  And, of course, posting a review of a $90,000 amp on this board - recall that AVA owners are exceptionally keen on price/performance issues - is just throwing meat to the dogs.  In other words, it's hard to see how your post is actually different from a troll.

[Zheeeem]

It's been a while but one part of this second DBT I'll always remember. Harry Pearson did either the best of everyone or close to it. Asked how he could tell he said that the brushes on cymbals were his best clue.  So for another 5,200 dollars you get different sounding brushes on cymbals. Actually he may have brought up a couple of other points but the cymbal was the main one.

I suspect guys like Frank can do a bit better than that:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=32080.msg285582#msg285582

What I would like to see is a panell containing Frank and other guys that design and build amps by listenting to them take part is a double blind test with this $90K amp and their amps.  Now that would be interesting.

Thanks
Bill

I dunno.  I have a lot of trouble thinking of any DBT as being "interesting".  I also have some trouble even thinking of DBTs as being useful.  Oh, properly done I guess you can get a statistically valid reckoning of whether one bit of equipment sounds "different" than another.  Not sure how this is useful, except possibly to refute marketing claims, which is a dead end.  You can also get a sampling of "preferences" which I don't find useful at all.  This is not to say I have a problem with preferences.  If Frank says he "prefers" the 350 Ultra to the 350 EXR, this is useful information for me.  If I read a piece of paper that says that 6 out of 10 people I don't know prefer the 350 Ultra to the 350 EXR, well that doesn't help me at all.

The real problem I have about DBT is that it is system/context specific.  If 6 out of 10 people prefer the 350 Ultra to the 350 EXR running Salk Veracity HT3s, does that mean the preference will be the same if they are running VMPS RM30Ms?  As one moves farther and farther from the world of reasonable, relatively non-capacitative loads and into increasingly load sensitive amps, the problem gets more extreme.

[martyo]

Zheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeem and BrianM,  well put. 

[miklorsmith]

Placing the fundamental question in a manufacturer's forum is a guarantee the topic will not be fleshed out.

[martyo]

Placing the fundamental question in a manufacturer's forum is a guarantee the topic will not be fleshed out.

Are you saying it would in some hi-fi rag?  

[weirdo]

Zheeeeeeeeeeeeem makes a good point.

  In the end hifi should really be about the speakers, not the front end gear.  The front end's job is to let you hear only the speakers.  I don't plan on changing my front end from here, other than maybe future iterations of Frank's designs, unless I guess I win the lottery and the boredom of riches sets in.

[/i]

couldn't agree more. The 90K amp is probably in the living room of the guy on 60 minutes last week with the 150 million dollar sailboat. Looks like 50k for rainforest wood panels. No basic technology patents, no new processes to report.  I'll bet it sounds good, but it doesn't appeal to me and whoever else may have kids and bills. I''ll bet he sells a few within 20 square blocks of the Eifel tower, but the rest of the French folk would likely buy AVA gear and listen to their music with passion like the rest of us grunts. 

[miklorsmith]

No, I meant in Central or somesuch.  Topics presented of a general nature such as relative "toPOLOGy" of amplifiers, presented on a manufacturer's doorstep, won't be crapped on by dissenters if there are any.

I'm not saying I am, rather that these topics come up occasionally.  They rarely go where the OP intends because of the inherent slant found within a manufacturer's "home".

No disrespect - I have nothing against this place, nor any others here.  But, whichever of the houses you visit serves its own version of comfort food.

I have very little experience with the Really Big Bux stuff, but what I read from others pretty consistently follows a theme - those with considerable time with it find it to be significantly better whether they can afford it or not.  Those without that experience tend to throw stones.

It is hard to justify any value proposition for a $90k amplifier.  But to third world kids that don't have enough to eat a $2,000 or $500 amplifier is an unimaginable luxury.  There just happen to be more of us and people never point the finger at themselves.  Do the billionaire's buddies think he's nuts for spending $90k on an amp?  Nope.

The bashing of expensive stuff is as tired as lashing at Bose.  If it has value to the target audience it will survive.  If it doesn't, it will die.  If it is as good as reported, my guess is it will be a coveted piece in the audio world by those that can afford it and those that cannot - if they can escape their own righteous indignation.

[art]

Maybe the reason the article contains no specific topology information could be for 2 reasons:

1.) There isn't any, other than a bog standard amp with a bunch of regulated power supplies.

2.) The designer does not want the competition to know what he is up to.

I vote for #1, in this case. He talks about a lot of other nonsense. $1M in R & D.........give me a break. I've worked in an R & D lab. I know that no one is going to pour that much time and money into a limited production toy for a handful of millionaires. They have to sell a dozen to break even. Not a very sound business model. Gee, even a guy like me from a company with no business model can figure out how likely that is to be successful.

Pat

[martyo]

No, I meant in Central or somesuch.  Topics presented of a general nature such as relative "toPOLOGy" of amplifiers, presented on a manufacturer's doorstep, won't be crapped on by dissenters if there are any.

I'm not saying I am, rather that these topics come up occasionally.  They rarely go where the OP intends because of the inherent slant found within a manufacturer's "home".

No disrespect - I have nothing against this place, nor any others here.  But, whichever of the houses you visit serves its own version of comfort food.

True and very respectfully put. Safe and invites further discussion.
Btw, Washington is beautiful, I lived on Lake Chelan, last house on the road after the state park in the early '70's. Awesome!

But then:

I have very little experience with the Really Big Bux stuff, but what I read from others pretty consistently follows a theme - those with considerable time with it find it to be significantly better whether they can afford it or not.  Those without that experience tend to throw stones.

Really? So from what you've "read", the "Really Big Bux" stuff is "significantly" better. And of course we then throw stones.

It is hard to justify any value proposition for a $90k amplifier.  But to third world kids that don't have enough to eat a $2,000 or $500 amplifier is an unimaginable luxury.  There just happen to be more of us and people never point the finger at themselves.  Do the billionaire's buddies think he's nuts for spending $90k on an amp?  Nope

There's a lot more of those kids than there are of us. As someone who gives A LOT of my own time and energy to helping struggling marriages, the words never and always are conversation killers because they are not true. We also support third world projects and sponser a child. As for pointing fingers, how about you speaking for yourself and not taking my inventory.

The bashing of expensive stuff is as tired as lashing at Bose.  If it has value to the target audience it will survive.  If it doesn't, it will die.  If it is as good as reported, my guess is it will be a coveted piece in the audio world by those that can afford it and those that cannot - if they can escape their own righteous indignation.

Apparently it isn't so tired that you felt the need to point it out to all of us who are so righteously indignant.

But, whichever of the houses you visit serves its own version of comfort food.

Exactly the way I feel about audio mags.

[miklorsmith]

I like the way you write, Brian, even if you're taking shots at me.     Convenient snobbery indeed.

I can't say whether stratospheric pricing correlates with better sound.  I was merely reporting the impressions I get from others' opinions who have more experience with it than I. 

Suppose I thought these $90k amps sounded no better than Brand Z's $2k amps (I don't).  In this case, I would wonder the motivation for buying them.  I may even pass some judgment on the buyer.  What if they were really pretty?  That motivates some folks.  What if I were a lifelong audiophile who always dreamed of $100k amps?  We can't distill the motivations of a buyer merely from their actions.

My opinion is that the marketplace is self regulating, within reason.  One man's vision of excess is another's baseline.  My point was everyone here participates in luxuries beyond the means of many - where the line between acceptable and ridiculous lies is a function of the bottom line.

I didn't say "haves" and "have nots", I said "heard" and "heard nots" - different.

Am I guilty of spending more money on my audio system than on third world problems?  Yes.

That's cool you don't like the audio mags.  Can't please everyone.

I don't have tons of money to burn, that's for sure.  I agonize over every decision I make with my setup because they nearly always hurt financially.  The uber spendy stuff is beyond my means and always will be.  Even if I had that much dough I don't think I would spend that much on amps.  But, me not choosing it for myself is different from saying someone else should not have the right to choose it for themselves.

Brian - I didn't say your opinions are invalid, rather that this moral/economic ground is an old issue that hasn't grown new legs.  Like everything we do/say there are different opinions.  I still think Bose sucks.

I sucked myself into this conversation, now I'll suck myself out.  You're welcome.

[TjMV3]

All I can say here,  is this:

You would never find me paying $90,000.00 for a power amp or a pair of monoblock amps.  Never. Even if I could afford to spend such money.

If I could afford to spend that kind of money,  I would do this.

I'd stock up on McIntosh (2 of mc402).......

.....Van Alstine (2 of the Fet Valve Ultra 550 and 1 of the Fet Valve Ultra 350)

........and Butler Audio amps ( 2 more of the TDB 2250,   2 more of the TDB 5150 and 2 TDB 3150).  


I'd spend roughly........ $30,000.00 (before tax) and I'd have eleven great amps from three different excellent amp manufactors.

That would be all the amplifiers I would ever need for the rest of my life and probably for a good portion of my son's early adult lives;  when I pass them on down to them  

And I'd save roughly $60,000.00 (before tax).

[jimdgoulding]

One of my very good friends in high school was the god son of a very wealthy banker.  We used to shop for clothes very carefully, not for financial reasons, but because we were very tasty dressers and liked to make a statement.  When the old man died he left my friend a gob of dough and a position with the bank which was then Mercantile Natl Bank of Dallas.  After that, my friend would buy a half a dozen suits at a time.  Problem is, he lost his individual and very good taste.   

I think part of the fun is being smart and careful in our selections.  As a serious listener I am very discriminate about how I spend my cash.  It's all about results to me.  Prestige or market status never get into it.  I get my prestige internally every time I sit down to listen.  Or, when a guest can enjoy what I am enjoying.  And then I have to tell them I spent $60,000 for my system?  I don't but I imagine that if I did, some of the beauty would fly out the window.  I'll take good taste over indiscriminate power everytime.  In clothes or in high fidelity.

But, I have to confess . . there is nothing like custom made clothes.   

[bhobba]

I dunno.  I have a lot of trouble thinking of any DBT as being "interesting". 

You don't think it intersting that some guy gushed about how good certain cables are, then when subject to a blind listening test that did not put the cables he was so positive on caused them to gush about how great it was?  Personally I find that very interesting; just as I would find it very interesting if the reviewer of this $90,000 amp who commented on how much better sound staging and other stuff was given a blind listening test with Frank's amps.

Thanks
Bill