[jose]

C:  It actually had a more open sound than the SL1200 we
     had in for review.  Im sure it was a diff in cabling that
     could be easily cured, but compared side by side, we
     all preferred the sound of the AT...  (I know this
     will open a huge can of worms...)

Jeff,

I will be very grateful if you could elaborate more on this. Also, how do the AT and the Technics compare in terms of build quality? Is it true that the platter of the AT is lighter?

Thank you,
Jose

[dmckean]

C:  It actually had a more open sound than the SL1200 we
     had in for review.  Im sure it was a diff in cabling that
     could be easily cured, but compared side by side, we
     all preferred the sound of the AT...  (I know this
     will open a huge can of worms...)

Jeff,

I will be very grateful if you could elaborate more on this. Also, how do the AT and the Technics compare in terms of build quality? Is it true that the platter of the AT is lighter?

Thank you,
Jose

His review http://www.tonepublications.com/images/pdfs/TA_011.pdf should answer most of your questions. But the AT-120 is plastic and the Technics is diecast aluminum.

[TONEPUB]

What?

What part of the PL120 is plastic?  The platter on mine is aluminum...

[dmckean]

The platters are both die-cast aluminum although the Technics' platter is better damped. Both tables can benefit from an isoplatmat. It's the body of the Technics that is die-cast aluminum where the PL-120 is plastic. Also, the wow and flutter on the PL-120 is .2% where it's .025% on the Technics.

I'm not trying to knock on the PL-120 at all, it's a great value. For all of $170 on Amazon you get a table that's well manufactured, a built in phono stage and a cartridge. It should be THE budget table to recommend to guys just starting out.

[TheChairGuy]

I see that the AT is quartz locked...but has it a DC or AC motor?  No mention of a servo system....guess the manufacturer didn't want to pay Matsushita (DC Servo) or Denon (AC Servo.....or, really it's not Denon it's D & M Holdings now that owns it) royalties for it's use?

Who knows, maybe Servo drive might be good for speed control, but bad for sonics 

Anyhow, it looks like high value product and for $400 with a nice cartridge...hard to fault 

John

[doug s.]

I was looking at the KAB site. What do they do to it compared to buy a new technics 1200. I thought the 1200's were for DJs or scratching. is it comparable to music hall or rega.

no, it's not at all comparable the the m/h or regas - these particle board decks don't hold a candle to the sl1200, imo!   

for me, at $500, i'd be buying a used sl1200 & sending it to kab for mods (or ordering the mods for diy), or i'd be buying a used empire turntable.  or a used heavy-platter lenco.  any of these decks will be better than anything else anywhere near the price.  i also like the basis 1400 that rim suggests, but a well set-up sl1200 or wintage empire will be stiff competition even for something like an sl1200, imo...

here's a nice empire tweek site:
http://cognitivevent.com/av_empire.html


the same guy has started getting into lenco's; there's also a plethora of lenco info on the web - some guys have unloaded multi-kilobuck decks in favor of the lenco - i know one guy who even ditched his lovely oracle delphi mkv (the deck i have!    ), after he got his hi-zoot lenco up & running...


ymmv,

doug s.

[Hypnotoad]

I own an SL1200 Mk2 and can recommend it.

A) It's built like a tank.
B) Will last for years.
C) Keeps it's speed steadier than steady.
D) Looks great.
E) Super easy to set up.
F) Sounds fantastic.

What more could you want?

It's been around for 30 years or so, that should tell you something.

[TheChairGuy]

I'm with ya' on A thru E....F is where we diverge.

It sounds good, not fantastic, despite whatever arms are changed out or outboard power supply and strobe disabler added.

But, for $500 (stock) to $1200 (fully modded) new....there is not much sonically one can fault it for.

But, it doesn't sound fantastic to me (and others)...it's much too damped/pinched for that ultimate kudo. But, it gets you a good dose of quality vinyl for small change (and resale is unusually good as they are so durable)

John

[low.pfile]

Man John, I really want to hear your 1200 to understand its shortcomings. Can I volunteer you for a GTG? maybe I can do it but my room sucks and not much space here. I have a 1210 slightly modded. Tried some racquet balls for feet last night. very wiggly. but pretty good isolation.

cheers, ed

[wilsynet]

I'm in the SF Bay Area too.  If you guys have a get together, I'd love to bring the new JVC that I acquired and see what John thinks about it in the refinished maple.  Also, I could bring my Isabella linestage and 30.2.  If I recall, you wanted to hear the Isabella for yourself so we can kill two birds and all that.

[Derockster]

Hey John here's my question.In the price range of the sl1200 what table would you go for to take you from sounding good to fantastic???btw i too think it sounds fantastic.Regards Cleaton

[TheChairGuy]

At under US$500-$1200 there isn't much to compete with it sonically.....when you add in the bonus of fantastic build quality, it's probably peerless

I think it's problems are material, rather than electrical....and I've reach the quasi-conclusion that the same feedback rejecting rubber base is also the cause of the overdamped/dark/pinched sound I hear.  I realize not everyone hears it and that's great (for you), but I do...and others have made mention of it.

I'm not at all slagging it....it's quite good in so many ways (getting speed spot-on is a big leg up on it versus most belt drives).  But, it doesn't reach fantastic sonic status for me no matter what is done to it

By the way - my mods on mine include:

* KAB outboard power supply and strobe disabler
* Origin Live armboard & Origin Live Illustrious Mk. III tonearm with a few cartridges
* Bypass stock feet (have tried many, but settled on brass toes as best)
* 3.5" maple board under brass toes
* EAR Isomat sub-platter and Herbie's top platter

There is a bit of annoying artifact to the sound which I hear, too.  That's either the innate, perhaps fidgeting drive system with light platter...or the fact that my SL-1200 was old and possibly abused and the bearing is now not optimal.  But, a worn bearing would not cause the overdamped/pinched/overly dark sound I hear I don't think (but I am not 100% certain)

To be honest, I have considered buying a new SL-1200 to eliminate 'old table' as the issue...but that's a pricy way to satisfy my curiousity

So, it's not for lack of trying to love the table here, fella's 

John 

[TheChairGuy]

I'm in the SF Bay Area too.  If you guys have a get together, I'd love to bring the new JVC that I acquired and see what John thinks about it in the refinished maple.  Also, I could bring my Isabella linestage and 30.2.  If I recall, you wanted to hear the Isabella for yourself so we can kill two birds and all that.

wilsynet,

How's it look in the flesh?...been meaning to get back to you on it.

Did you stuff it's gizzards with clay and prop it up on the Herbies feet? 

The JVC QL-Y66F, with all matters of cartridges, shows the deficiencies of the SL-1200 up pretty clearly.  It has an ease and a non-truncated delivery that the SL-1200 lacks...the longer 10" tonearm reduces distortion a bit for additional measure.

Honestly gents - I have no sentimental faves nor do more dollars spent automatically equate to better sonics - but, here is a table you can buy for $400 on ebay or Audiogon, add $300.00 in clay, new feet, a sub-base and a platter mat...and it is TRULY a giant killer.  It's 24 years old and you can buy into vintage problems along with it ....but, there's a table that is better than the SL-1200, for less money and really reaches fantastic sonic heights.

My opinion only...and if you're happy with what you got, that's ALL that matters 

John

[lcrim]

I have had a fully KAB modded Technics 1200 MKII for years and the drawbacks pointed out by my co-Facilitator are not present with mine.  Mine was never damaged and includes the original tonearm with the hydraulic damping tray and the tonearm rewire to the Cardas Litz wire.  With a high quality moving coil cartridge, there are no inherent shortcomings to this deck.
While I am friends with the proprietor of KAB, that has to do with the fact that Kevin is a sterling person.  My judgement about the quality of the playback of the deck is apart from the respect I have for the man.  There are only a few no-brainer bargains in audio, and the Technics 12xx family is one.
This is not to say that John, the former Chair Guy is off his rocker.  He is genuine and helpfull and I consider him a friend as well.  We do have sincere differences regarding many things in vinyl playback and express widely differing opinions on many topics. 
My experience has been that the Technics 12xx is the real deal and has given me unfussy, high quality musical playback.

[Hypnotoad]

The JVC QL-Y66F, with all matters of cartridges, shows the deficiencies of the SL-1200 up pretty clearly.  It has an ease and a non-truncated delivery that the SL-1200 lacks...the longer 10" tonearm reduces distortion a bit for additional measure.

Honestly gents - I have no sentimental faves nor do more dollars spent automatically equate to better sonics - but, here is a table you can buy for $400 on ebay or Audiogon, add $300.00 in clay, new feet, a sub-base and a platter mat...and it is TRULY a giant killer.  It's 24 years old and you can buy into vintage problems along with it ....but, there's a table that is better than the SL-1200, for less money and really reaches fantastic sonic heights.

My opinion only...and if you're happy with what you got, that's ALL that matters 

John

I value your opinion and take no offense at your comments.

But I doubt if it is fair to compare a vintage totl JVC with it's servo motors etc to something you can buy new today for the same price. That's apples and oranges, you would have to compare it to something that's totl new today and see how it goes. Then we would see the JVC's shortcomings in stock form. If I picked up a Linn for $400.00 I could say the same things.

My opinion of the SL1200 Mk2 stands as I think it does sound fantastic.

The sound is something that I love for one as the music flows out like a summer breeze compared to others where it seems to be forced out like a huge fan blowing in your face.

They may sound good for a while but become fatiguing and unnatural sounding after while compared to the Technics.

I fitted mine with a Denon DL-110 and run it through a vintage Luxman L-430 with Boston Acoustics A200's and also have A150's & A70's as well.

The sound stage is huge, the bass extension amazing, midrange is very natural and high end silky smooth.

Last night I was listening to Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds and compared it to the same on Cd and it was like I said the lp sounded so natural it was eerie but the Cd sounded good but like the music was being fired at you. I can hear all the layers of music with the Technics.

Anyway that's my opinion for what it's worth but then again I may be suffering from mental illness.

[TheChairGuy]

Larry/lcrim / hypotoad....I may well be off my rocker (but, my position on the ultimate sonics of the Technics SL-1200 stands)

Please note that in todays market for $500-$1200 turntables, the SL-1200 is perhaps without peer.  Certainly at $500 (stock) it would seem to be. 

It is not altogether right to compare to 20+ year old tables...except to point out that there have been better decks made in the past and if there were still sales in the hundreds of millions of records each year (as there was in the early-80's) and the big Japanese makers were still investing in tables, the SL-1200 would have be eclipsed by better offerings in the market.

As it is, with (new) record sales scratching at a few million worldwide only...there is scarce investment in new technology in the old craft....and we are left with the SL-1200 (a design that harkens back to 1979 and was NOT Technics finest achievement in vinyl even then)

It is a very durable deck made and continues to live because of DJ's.  Ultra-reliability, spot-on speed and feedback rejection are paramount for DJ's and without peer for a $500 Technics for them.  But, sonically, it falls just short of the gold standard of universal excellence.

Now, Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds on vinyl is simply a fantastic ride No disagreement at all there.

John

[low.pfile]

** I just realized that this thread has been dormant for 1 year! I wonder if RawB8figure (the OP) ever picked up a TT?

John,
I want to chime in on your last post, though not directed at me.  I feel that I am happy with my TT - this is one item that I am not planning on changing soon, since for me, there are lots of things to deal with with TTs. But I am always curious about the level of sound fidelity that can be created from all types of turntables, so I will try to listen to as many TTs as possible. I have very little TT listening experience to base my observations on: the last TT was a friends Thorens auto this past weekend. Before that Sonny's very nice VPI last year. And I will continue my listening quest, $300 and $10k spinners.

I was just thinking, this thread title "Trying out Vinyl" seems like it would be a good starting point for those in the early stage of contemplating adding a TT - the title even sounds like a "How-to". Though this specific thread meanders a bit (though does provide some guidance for a beginner), I wonder if a dedicated thread for beginners would be helpful?  It could have a few anecdotes from some recent newbies to vinyl playback: how they started and if they stayed with it. It is obvious that recently vinyl has had a resurgence and those of the digital age are very unfamiliar with the bits and bobs of vinyl and could use the experience of AC'ers on the options/recommendations for a first TT.

cheers, ed

[TheChairGuy]

Good idea(s), Ed.  See here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65302.new#new

If there is juicy stuff in there (helpful for newbies and or veterans alike), we can make it a 'sticky' later.  Note that we have a couple helpful stickies now under Vinyl Circle.

So great that you found the SL-1200....you could've begun with many more overpriced/underperforming decks out there for your finite funds.  For many, all you may need is the Technics SL-1200...for others, it is a stepping stone onward. 

Either way, just glad you're happy 

John

[wilsynet]

How's it look in the flesh?...been meaning to get back to you on it.

Did you stuff it's gizzards with clay and prop it up on the Herbies feet? 

It looks pretty good, although the maple laminate at the back of the unit is in somewhat poor shape.  Nothing you can see from the front and that's ok.  It's an old deck and it isn't going to be perfect.

I was only able to stuff 7 lbs of Plast-i-Clay in it, and I didn't take out the controller board, but I think I got most of the way there.  Herbie's feet too, and his Way Excellent Mat.  Also sprayed some of the DupliColor undercoating and sound dampening material, but it does not cover every full inch of the board.  I figured some was better than none here.  Sits on a lack table with spikes, and the Jolida JD-9A has been upgraded with NOS Raytheon 12AX7 long black plates, which some people have never heard of and others think is the bomb.

It sounds pretty good, but I think the stock cartridge is holding it back.  I have a Dynavector 10X5 on order and looking forward to comparing the two cartridges.  So far what I can say is that it has better PRaT than my RWA Isabella's DAC, but the Isabella isn't too far behind.  I still think the Isabellina DAC is way excellent, but even so, with respect to the turntable I'm quite pleased so far, really like the analog presentation and I've been buying records both new and from used record shops.  I wanted to wait for the new cartridge to get here before following up with my findings, but I'm very glad you asked.

What I've discovered is that having a turntable means having access to all that music on vinyl that never made its way to digital formats.  And for those LPs that did, there is clearly some stuff that sounds much better on vinyl than on CD.  For example, I found a pretty worn and scratched up Carole King Tapestry LP that sounds way, way better than the CD version, including the most recent remastering/reissue in 2008.  Needless to say, I have a 180 gram LP of Tapestry on its way to me.

I still do wonder how a Nottingham or a Rega P5 compares to the JVC, but for now I am quite enjoying the ritual of a record player and will worry about that sort of thing later after I've properly acclimated.

[TheChairGuy]

What cartridge have you been using with it thus far?  I cannot remember if it came with one when you bought it or you had fitted one of your own to it.

John